1. "Hello from a new member"
Posted by jamfaws on Nov-6th-03 at 11:48 AM

Not long ago I joined this group (although i've been an avid reader of it for a while)just wanted to say "Hello" to everyone and hopefully i'll join in some of your fantastic discussions (when I get the courage)until then, here's a bit about me, My name is Aaron I live in London (born in the Eastend (BOW) but now I live in Waterloo.
I've been fanatical about "Lizzie Borden" since 1985, my book collection has been a slow build up over the past 18 years, but I have, Lincoln, Pearson, Brown, Geary, Sullivan, Kent, Masterton, De Mille, Rebello, the Sourcebook, Engstrom Novel, Norfolk play, carter storys, read all the books and docs on the website and of course i've watched the TV movie many times!
I am waiting for Radin and Spiering (but the post went on strike the day I ordered them)I hope this qulifies me as a Bordenite?

Lately I have been living and breathing all things "Lizzie" the "case" still holds a great power over me, that I can see many of you have! i'm glad to know that i'm not the only one!
Many thanks

Aaron

Aaron

of course you're a bordenite.

please don't hold back anymore.  it's getting a bit stale in some departments.

Glad I fit the criteria! I guess i'm trying to rack my brain, it seems everything has been discussed about the case in great detail on this forum, which is great, I hope to get to Fall River next year and hopefully stay at the B&B, any advice from members of the best time to go and how long in advance I should book would be appreciated.
as far as my feelings of whether "Miss Lizzie" was Guilty or not! Over the past 18 years I keep changing my mind, sometimes I think "Yep, she did it" othertimes I think, "no she didn't doit, but she knew who did", then other times I think "she knew nothing about it" and i've even thought it was an "Alien" encounter of some kind, and the town of Fall River strikes me at times as "Children of the damned" territory, all the books i've read about the case, the writers have had their own theroies who did it from Emma, Bridget,Lizzie, Morse..the list goes on and they all seem guilty at times and innocent at other times, it's a bit like an episode of "Soap" confused? you will be. I'm confused, fascinated and really wanna travel back in time to solve this crime!
Today I think Lizzie and only Lizzie did it, but I guess come tomorrow I will have changed my mind again.



Aaron

Welcome Aaron!  About two years ago I was prowling the East End on a Jack the Ripper tour given by Donald Rumbelow.  For some reason both those crimes & Lizzie fascinate me. Maybe it's the era itself. I've found it interesting to think that just four years before the Bordens were murdered that the family may have been discussing The Whitechapel Murders at the dinner table.
  I haven't actually stayed at the Lizzie B&B yet, but I know that during the summer months (or at least August) they give tours on the weekdays and you have to be out of your room by 10am and can't go back until 3pm. That put me off staying there in August. I think in the winter months they only do tours on the weekends.
  Don't be afraid to ask questions. I've only been on a few months and even though at first I felt out of my depth with these experts, I'm not worried about asking a "repetitious" question of something that may have been discussed a year ago. I wasn't here a year ago and so it's new to me. The folks here have been very friendly and for the most part either supply information or other questions or, if they're bored with the question, can choose not to respond at all.
  I don't think Lizzie did it, although I think she knew who did. And I'm not convinced it was pre-meditated either.

  Hi Aaron, welcome to the forum!  Always nice to get new blood in here.  I too am a fan of Debbie Harry's music, from Blondie to her solo career and back. 

Thanks Benjamin,

I was born not far from Whitechapel, and those crimes do fascinate me, but not like the Borden case, I too have wondered if Lizzie and co discussed the case, and Lizzie visited London in 1890 and i'm sure there must have been some talk of it. Now don't ask me why, but whenever I read anything about Dr Handy I start to picture him as a "Jack the Ripper" character spying out of the back of his carriage the morning of the murders, I guess that's the power of these stories.
I'm not sure Lizzie knew who did it, if it was planned that someone was hired to kill her parents, surely she would have made sure that she was seen by somebody during that time period? gone across the road to Sargents for instance, after all Morse, Emma and Bridget to a lesser extent did this (and they it is mostly assumed were innocent)then surely Lizzie wouldn't have been that stupid to not have eye witness accounts of where she was at a particular time? unless of course she walked in on the killings by accident and protected the murderer? is that what you mean by not pre-meditated? I guess we will never know for sure.

welcome Aaron, I also go back and forth like you about "did she
or didn't she", nice to have new perspectives.

Hi Susan,

Wow! A Lizzie Borden fan and Debbie Harry too! I've been mad about Blondie/Harry since I was 12 (so a long time)the new Blondie album has just come out and it is brilliant (although i've yet to buy any music of hers and not like it)there is a track titled "Rules for Living" by Jimmy Destri (a great song writer-11:59 being his best)but this new track really reminds me of Lizzie, maybe because she's been on my mind a lot lately, one of the lines is "Sometimes your eyes remind me, I don't know why" and it just makes me think of Lizzie, wow! 111 years after the crime and 76 years after her death she still holds such interest and power, almost hypnotic at times.

Hi Nancie,

Great to talk about all things Lizzie! it's 1.40am and I can't sleep, my head is full of Lizzie! I think one of the reasons it's hard to really be solid about did she or didn't she is because over the years there have been so many conflicting stories and all of the people who have claimed it was such and such can't all be right (unless the whole town had a chop)but today I think Lizzie did it and she did it alone, and it was chance and luck that made her get away with it, what do you think today?

Hi Aaron,
  I find AR Brown's theory about William Borden plausible and that's why I don't think it was a pre-meditated murder. That Lizzie knew there would be a meeting, but not that William would end up murdering Andrew&Abby. That could explain why she didn't establish a clearer/tighter alibi. She didn't know something like that was going to happen and in her panic, shock, etc. her story garbled until she could talk to Morse (her Uncle John, not the Inspector ). With the AR Brown book it's when he gets into that whole Mellon House conspiracy that I think he begins to lose credibility.
It's amazing what can happen in a house in another room and a person wouldn't be aware of it. When I was 13 & my brother was 16, on Thanksgiving day my father tried to strangle him to death with his bare hands (long story) and I was home, but I have no idea where I was and I really have no memory of it. Even my mother can't remember where I was in the house, but she remembers witnessing the violence in the hallway. (and later that day we were at the family functions and no one would've guessed the events of that morning, which is why I don't put a whole lot of store in the comments by friends & neighbors about the Borden's domestic harmony or lack thereof) Even if Lizzie heard arguing it might not have been that unusual and the silence afterwards wouldn't have alarmed her right away because it might simply be the end of the fight.

Hi Aaron!
Thank you for the courtesy and consideration of introducing yourself!
Pleased to meet you.

I also have a slight frisson when it comes to Dr. Handy.
I put him on my suspect list because of an inanate sense about him and also because he claimed to see someone acting suspiciously that morning and yet there was a witness who claimed he saw Dr. Handy acting suspiciously!
I don't think anyone but you and I had a doubt of Dr. Handy!...

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary/SuspectsListPart2.htm

Oh, I don't have that one yet, haven't been music shopping in awhile.  Isn't it called Curse of Blondie, I think I just saw it listed on a site.  I'm downloading Good Boys as I type. The Blondie lyrics that come to mind when I think of Lizzie is Sunday Girl,
"I know a girl from a lonely street, cold as ice cream, but, still as sweet..." 

Hello Kat,

Thanks for the link, I had read/printed that section, I guess the great thing about this crime (if that's the right word) is that Lizzie aside, there are many suspects, when I first read about the Borden case in a book of assorted crimes it lead you in no doubt that "Lizzie" did it, but when you dig deeper and go off of the "Short Story" page you realise there were a number of people who it could have been, and looked just as guilty as Lizzie.

It's a strange feeling about Dr Handy,because whenever I see his name mentioned it makes my skin shudder! I guess if I was to put him in panto he would have to be dressed like the Child Catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, but instead of saying "Children, Children" he would be spitting, "Lizzie, Lizzie" as she hid in the barn until he passed slowely down the street in his carriage (sorry my imagination is running away with me)but, yep, he's on my suspect list too! (although yesterday I believed Lizzie and Lizzie alone did the deed)

Susan,

Good Boys got to number 12 in the UK chart, a bit of a dissapointment for us Brits! as Maria hit the Number one spot in 1999.(and yes the album is called "The Curse Of Blondie")
It would be good to get a list going on the songs that remind us of Lizze! "Sunday Girl" is a good one, and it was the very first Blondie Single I got!

Hello Aaron nice to meet you

(Message last edited Nov-7th-03  10:38 AM.)

Hi again Aaron - I hope this message gets through. Nice to meet someone from the UK Im very interested in the Victorian Era and your famous who-dunnit - Jack the Ripper. 

Hello Linn,

Thanks for the warm welcome! Not long ago I watched "From Hell" and was really impressed by the sets they made in Prague. I wonder what you thought of the film? I was born in the Eastend of London, Bow in fact, so only a stones throw from Whitechapel itself. I'm semi interested in the Ripper case, many years ago I appeared in a (Amerture) production of "Jack the Ripper" which had some really great songs in them, but to my knowledge the play has never been recorded, one of my favourite numbers was an old cockney tune, some of the lines were "Oh yes the grass on the otherside is always greener, and the air down in blackwell don't half stink, but i'm gonna get away and I really will tomorrow, but i'll just go down the boozer and have just one last drink, Blow your troubles, blow em' all away, forget about tomorrow it's another day, we can drink a few, all good cockneys do, and we'll get so drunk that no one gives a damn." It was one of the songs one of the victims sang (forget which one-it was many years ago)but it always stuck in my head.
I guess it appealed to the cockney in me!

Hi again, Aaron.  Awhile ago Kat posted the lyrics to The Who's behind blue eyes, quite fitting!  That sounds like a fun little project, coming up with some songs that remind us of Lizzie.  I'll have to put my thinking cap on. 

Ha Ha Ha, what a joker you are!!!
But none of the officials ever suspected Dr Handy, who had been treating a patient earlier. WHAT facts to "suspect" him?

The song I would think of that applies to Lizzie is Rod Stewart's (Still I look to find a) Reason to Believe.

Started out trying to believe her but those hopes faded fast.

Oooo, good one, Harry.  This Garbage song came to mind and I had to research the lyrics, the whole song could be about Lizzie:


Garbage - A Stroke Of Luck

hanging by threads of palest silver
I could have stayed that way forever
bad blood and ghosts wrapped tight around me nothing could ever seem to
touch me

I lose what I love most
did you know I was lost until you found me?

a stroke of luck or a gift from god?
the hand of fate or devil’s claws?
from below or saints above
you came to me
here comes the cold again
I feel it closing in
it’s falling down and
all around me falling

you say that you’ll be there to catch me or will you only try to trap me
these are the rules I make
our chains were meant to break
you’ll never change me

here comes the cold again
I feel it closing in
you’re falling down and
all around me falling
stroke of luck or a gift from god?
hand of fate or devil’s claws?
from below or saints above
you come to me now

don’t ask me why
don’t even try

a stroke of luck or a gift from god?
the hand of fate or devil’s claws?
from below or saints above
you came to me
here comes the cold again
I feel it closing in
it’s falling down and
all around me falling

falling

Susan, I love the lines

don't ask me why
don't even try

Now that's Lizzie! 

Yes, because you'll never get a straight answer from her, thats for sure!    When I first read all the lyrics I kept finding Lizzie references, its pretty cool.
This line sounds like Lizzie's life after the murders:
"bad blood and ghosts wrapped tight around me nothing could ever seem to touch me"

And if Lizzie actually did the murders and got away with them:

"a stroke of luck or a gift from god?
the hand of fate or devil’s claws?
from below or saints above"

I'm sure theres more songs out there, anyone else?  

Hi Aaron. The movie "From Hell" had an interesting ending - makes one wonder if that could indeed have happened since some of the victims did use an alias. Have you seen the Ripper movie with Michael Caine? Can't think of the name but it too was interesting.