1. "Psychopaths and Other Fun People"
Posted by Edisto on Jun-3rd-03 at 10:03 AM

Yesterday's Washington Post had a brief article titled "Identifying Psychopathic Killers."  It's about a study done at Cardiff University in the UK, which administered a test to "13 psychopathic murderers, 17 non-psychopathic murderers, 39 psychopaths who had committed other crimes, and 52 non-psychopaths who had committed other crimes." (Sounds like the makings of the ideal cocktail party!)  It was found that the psychopathic murderers were much less likely to react negatively to violence than the rest of the group, in other words, that they didn't think violence was as bad as other people did.  The researchers hope the result will help to identify psychopathic murderers before they kill.  It would be interesting to know how the psychopathic murderers were distinguished from the non-psychopathic murderers.  I kinda thought ALL murderers might be a little bit psychopathic, but what do I know?  I guess there are some nice, normal murderers out there.  Assuming Lizzie was a murderer, I wonder which type she was.  (My dictionary says psychopaths are amoral, asocial, irresponsible, and impulsive and lack remorse or shame.)

Ya know, the more you read up on psychopathia, the more
common it appears. I know several people who fit the profile
perfectly -- I don't. Honestly.
http://2violent.com/page2.html

I can think of two people -- one I know personally and another only from the Internet -- who seem to fit this profile perfectly.  (Admittedly, I don't know much about their early life and some of their personal habits, because I try to stay away from people like this!)

I think we all know the Internet one you are talking
about. The one who never learns to behave? Right?

hehehe.  this could get nasty.

The guy who sold us our new car, 1994, sat down on a bench next to me and hung his head and told me that sometimes he believed he was a sociopath.

I mean, people DO tell me about themselves, but What am I to say to that?
I figured maybe if he could admit that, and think in those terms, then he probably wasn't...

He wasn't scary.  Just sort of flat.

what's interesting is why he told you.  i'm not surprised, but i can't explain why.

Well, I know one should never buy a USED car from a sociopath, but I guess it's okay if it's a NEW car.

Oh Gawd/dess you crack me up!

I think of used car salesmen like I think of horse dealers.  And I was wondering if in the *olden days* they had that same attitude?
That's how I see Morse, anyway.
AND Morse was born the same date as P.T. Barnum!

Here is my two cents.....

Psychopathic (*antisocial*)types are very common...far more so than I think most people believe..... but a full blown psychopath....someone with Antisocial Personality Disorder, is thankfully less common. Many people have antisocial/psychopathological traits but do not have the personality disorder. So...we all know people who are very charming when they want to use someone, who have shallow emotional bases, who use and discard people, etcetera....and the person may have some very redeeming qualities as well...but fewer of us will know a true antisocoial/psychopath. I work with persistent felons, and they all have traits..lol...but few of them, even those who have had long criminal histories, are full blown antisocials. The traits are learned and may be unlearned over time...but the personality disorder is incredibly resistant to treatment and seems to be chronic.

Oh...and in my experience, antisocials are egomaniacs and they see other people as the problem, not themselves...so...an antisocial would be very unlikely to ever wonder if they were antisocial...it just isn't part of their make up to question themselves or see themselves in a negative light...so...if the car salesman was wondering about himself, that is a pretty good indication that he isn't antisocial....he is, however, in a business that thrives on manipulation and dishonesty...maybe he is having an ethical crisis (something an antisocial would not have...lolol).

Thanks.  That does clarify things.
I had wondered if I should have *Intervened*.  But I already had my hands full at the time.
My instinct was that he was depressed.  That was why he was flat.
I did ask him if he had *feelings* and he did reply affirmative.

You are so right when you say the true sociopath will not ever know he is one, and that the problems in his/her life are from without...from others.  They also feel that laws don't apply to them..almost as if they were not mortal.
I also understand there to be, in our midst, what I call 'socially acceptable sociopaths'(non-violent).  This might be a catagory for Michael Milken or Jack Nicholson.  They have trained themselves to live in the same world as the rest of us, while still having these tendencies and they either act out in more socially acceptable ways or else we have never uncovered hidden crimes.
Milken as a businessman could make a ton of money with no regret for the little guy and in business that is somewhat acceptable--that is an example.

terrie:

how do you diagnose someone who is basically a loner and almost anti-social, but who does not commit crimes and who honestly has a strong moral code?  this person does not feel a general need for people, but will recognize a person that he considers exceptional and will take a serious interest?

 

I don't know why you call it *diagnose*.  Maybe *interpret*?
Sounds like the Dahli Lama or Bhudda to me.
If a person is happy and content with their own company, I don't see why they would be a *loner*.  More like a person who reflects.  It's probably their job, this time around.

That sounds like me! I wish I was the antisocial/psychopathic
sort -- it seems like it would be fun to cause everybody trouble
and not just, um, stew in your own juices? Is that the saying?

Sometimes you just sound like Dennis the Menace! 

Who? Me?!!!!

Well...I think it is very important to define *antisocial* (as in antisocial personality) in the sense of *acting against others in some way*.... not caring to be around people much is not necessarily a problem.... and if the person recognizes and has interest in some close persons, I would think it may just be that person's personality...not a disorder.... now, if they are plotting against people or planning how they can con people, we got a problem...lol....Antisocials hurt others...they use them, manipulate them, lie to them, etc. Some people like to be alone alot and even avoid the company of others, but that isn't generally *antisocial* in the same sense as *antisocial personality*....

By the way.... on a sort of related topic...I am a believer in the Enneagram and I would recommend it to anyone who has an interest in different personalities.... it is an amazing personailty assessment tool.... I think the most comprehensive authors on the topic are Riso and Hudson....some personalities are naturally *withdrawn* and find that being around others is exhausting...it's just how they function... while others thrive on the energy they get from being around others.....

kat:

i know, i know.   i was just probing.

Purely FYI --- I brought some data back from work about antisocials and the like...lol...

First, from Terrence Gorski and CENAPS (very respectable authorities):

Dealing with the population of the world:

people with antisocial traits make up only about 5% ..among this 5%, roughly 4% are men and roughly 1% are women--- BUT----

10-15% of using alcoholics and addicts have antisocial traits;

50-80%  of prison inmates have antisocial traits

people with antisocial traits appear to be drwn to drugs, alcohol, and criminal activities...also, the vast majority of crime the world over appear to be committed by a tiny percentage of the population. (the same few people commit the majority of crime).

Now, about females (which is the population I work with).... since 1990, the number of female prisoners in the US has risen by 108%-- in 1990, there were 44,065 female inmates in the US...in 2000, there were 91,612 female inmates in the US...from the Bureau of Justice Statistics

Almost 1 million women were involved in the criminal justice system in 1998...and 35% of these were first time offenders...(from The Counselor, July/August 2000, p. 3) --- this would mean that 65% of all women involved in the criminal justice system in 1998 were repeat offenders....(not that there was something special about 1998...lol...it just holds to the pattern of a minority commoitting the majority of crimes)...

so...while antisocials and people with antisocial traits appear to be blissfully rare, they do one heck of alot of damage....

. . . which only goes to prove the old adage:
"All you need to fill up our asylums and prisons, are the right kind of people."

I wonder how much drugs and alcohol contribute to the crime rate by lowering inhibitions.
I wonder if the *repeats* know this consciously?
And if they really wanted to stop being lawless they could consider abstaining from these substances?  Would that make a difference in those crime rates?

If you read "Harvard and the Unabomber" you may learn about Enneagrams and other psychological conditioning, and the harm they may do. It is NOT just an academic exercise; Federal money was involved. Or are they just another form of horoscopes or Ouija boards?
Ever sacrifice and goat and inspect the entrails to foresee the future? This was the science of 2,000 years ago; it worked as far an everyone knew.

When Will They Ever Learn Dept.
Great Idea to abolish alcohol and other drugs. I'm sure it will work. What about tobacco? But maybe we can learn something from history?

What are the statistics from Canada or Great Britain (similar cultures)? What about the people who drink but do not wind up in prison? (I'll bet that number is larger?)

Does the example of Enron compare against minor crimes? Who went to jail in the former? Or is there a political angle here?