1. "Bismuth powders"
Posted by harry on Aug-18th-03 at 9:51 AM

When Dr. Bowen testified at the Inquest some of the earliest questions he was asked by Knowlton were about bismuth powders:

Q.  You were their family physician?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  They did not need much doctoring?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Had you attended Mr. Borden recently, previous to his being killed?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Had you given him any bismuth powders, or anything of that sort?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Do you know whether he had such things around the house?
A.  I dont know.
Q.  Have you ever prescribed them for him?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Or for any member of the family?
A.  Not that I remember of, I dont think I have.
Q.  So far as you know, was he a man that knew enough about that branch of science to take medicine himself, if he had occasion to?
A.  That is a question I could not answer; I am sure I dont know.
Q.  Assuming that bismuth was found in his stomach, you would not have any idea how it got there?
A.  No Sir

The official autopsy does not mention anything about bismuth being found in the stomachs. Bowen was not asked again about it at either the Prelim or Trial.

Bismuth subsalicylate is apparently a major ingredient in Pepto-Bismol.  That specific product was not available until after the turn of the century but there was apparent knowledge of its beneficial effects.

It's not important but I don't see it mentioned anywhere else so I guess it's destined to be another one of those annoying items in this drama that pop up once and disappear. 

Could this just be Prosecutorial Trickery by asking about bismuth when it was not there (assumed)? To imply some sort of guilt?

As far or as little as I know, bismuth hasn't been available over the counter for about a century. It can be poisonous if over-used.
Isn't it a heavy metal like lead or arsenic?

I think this is one of those fishing expeditions.  I don't think it was implying guilt of Bowen, especially if Andrew had been ill prior to the murders.

Wasn't the fuller autopsy done on the 11th, the final day of the Inquest?
And Bowen testified on Wednesday the 10th, and Wood came to town that morning to pick up the remaining evidence

Knowlton would not know the analysis of stomach contents yet but he could know whether there was considered irritation to the intestines.
Bowen probably knew all this too.
.
" As the Standard has stated, the only evidence that he expects from the return of the analysis of the stomachs and their contents is as to the time of the murders.  The arrest yesterday was not the result of any return from Prof. Wood, as he has made none.  No word is expected from him concerning the analysis for a week and possibly nothing will be heard for two weeks." [Evening Standard, August 13th, 1892)

--Wood testifies at the trial [990-991] that he received the stomachs and milk on Friday the 5th and implies he made an immediate test for prussic acid, as that would dissapate first.  Then he says they went on to make tests "in the regular way for the irritant poisons..." [T.994]

So it sounds like the D.A. could have word by Friday evening, the 5th, as to whether there was prussic acid residue found, but not the results of the stomach contents per se, until much later.

--Do we know when Wood's analysis of the contents was final and submitted to the D.A.?


...
In the Prelim., Dr. Dolan, pg. 126, admits to making some kind of an autopsy report to the District Attorney on the 8th, the results of his view of the bodies on the 4th.
Then he claims the full autopsy report was not submitted as a document until he thinks, the 15th.  AND he lost his notes.

Come to think of it, that's a regular technique of Knowlton's at the Inquest.
He asked questions of both Emma and Lizzie with the preamble:  "Assume that..."
About blood and hatchets.

·        " In pharmaceuticals as it is used as an antacid. In medical applications bismuth must be completely free of trace amounts of arsenic. An example is bismuth phosphate (BiPO4), a white powder insoluble in water."
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=590

I thought that we had bismuth powder in our medicine cabinent as late as the early 70's.

My understanding, which may wrong, is that Pepto-Bismol (and others) hasn't contained bismuth since around 1914 Pure Food and Drug laws. But state laws may differ. My personal experience is that Tums (or calcium carbonate?) is cheaper and better for a rare upset stomach. Yogurt that is not fat-free also works for me. If upset stomachs are frequent, consult a Dr (first make sure its not your cooking).

I won't mention the other possibility of a household poisoner.

We also had paragoric and ipicak.
We had some old-fashioned remedies into the 70's.
Epson salts, oatmeal bath for poison ivy, baking soda for tooth powder and bee stings...

While looking up Bismuth powders on the internet, I came across this which I found interesting, Cat Care from the 1800s and on.

"In 1901, "How to Keep Your Cat in Health" was written by "Two Friends of the Race" and contained such advice as "If your cat should be taken ill, have as little as possible to do with drugs, unless it be in the homeopathic form". Cats with colds could be given a tonic of tincture of arsenicum in a spoonful of milk. The same treatment was advised for other ailments such as distemper, along with a mixture of eggs, cream and brandy. Tincture of arsenicum could also be given for mange. The symptoms of mange were to be treated with sulphur ointment, carbolic acid ointment, green iodide of mercury ointment and acid sulphurous lotion. Arsenic was used as both a tonic and an antiseptic. Prussic acid was used as an anti-spasmodic and also for pain relief. Lead was used as an astringent and also a sedative. All are poisonous as is mercury and carbolic. Little wonder that cats life-spans were shorter than those of their ancestors."
Maybe Lizzie wanted to help a spasmodic cat with her trips to the drug store?

"Pedigree cats were believed prone to dyspepsia (indigestion). "Two Friends of the Race" wrote "[Dyspepsia] is more often met with in highly-bred and notably show specimens, when a too-fixed and stimulating system of feeding is adopted". At the time, pedigree cats were not usually fed horse meat (fed to household cats) but lean chopped mutton."

"Fleas were associated with dirty households. To flea powder a cat, the powder was tipped into a drawstring bag and the cat placed in the bag with only its head sticking out. It stayed this way for 15 or 20 minutes, with the powder being patted onto it. Flea powders included flowers of sulphur, powdered tobacco or Persian insect powder. If Persian insect powder was used, the cat was placed on a sheet of newspaper, the powder sprinkled over it and then brushed out. The paper - and the temporarily stunned fleas - must immediately be burned."  Maybe Lizzie should have gotten herself some Persian insect powder for those fleas?

"Early wormers were toxic to cats and would have killed a good many. In the mid to late 1800s, cats with worms were dosed with turpentine. Turpentine also causes the urine to develop a floral smell. However, it also caused cystitis (inflamed bladder) and no doubt kidney damage. The cystitis could be treated with hot hip baths, linseed poultices between the cat's thighs, warm gruel enemas and opiates. It was far safer to prevent worms in the first place and in the early 1900s, a pinch of salt with every meal was supposed to prevent worms. In 1901, regular doses of cod liver oil were considered an excellent antidote to worms. Although safer treatments were available in the 1950s, it was still considered unwise to worm cats as the it would cause more trouble than good!"

"A warning should be given here about the use of bismuth. Bismuth is a useful remedy for diarrhoea but is poisonous if given over too long a period. After a few days it should be discontinued."  Who knew? 

Too much is poisonous huh?

Lizzie: Here father, have another bismuth powder and water.

Andrew: But, Lizzie that's the 6th glass you have given me today.

Lizzie: Yes, father, I know.

Which makes me wonder, does Pepto-Bismal still have Bismuth in it?  I don't ever take it myself, it makes me more naseous! 

Thanks for that, Susan.

Don't think I'd like to be a Victorian cat.  Don't think I'd like to be a cat person trying to get the cat into that flea bag!

You're welcome, Tina-Kate.  I can't imagine doing a quarter of the things they suggest, poor kittys!  I think I forgot to give the URL for the site, here it is, better late than never. 

http://www.messybeast.com/retro-medic.htm

Susan, according to Walgreens internet site, Pepto Bismol contains:

Active Ingredients
Bismuth Subsalicylate  262 Mg; Total Salicylate 130 Mg

Inactive Ingredients
Benzoic Acid , D&C Red  No. 22 , Flavor  pink Cherry , Magnesium Aluminum Silicate , Methylcellulose , Saccharin Sodium , Salicylic Acid , Sodium Salicylate , Sorbic Acid , Water

Thanks, Diana.  I wonder if that is enough of a dosage that if you take it on a regular basis you could be poisoning yourself? 

I guess it's possible. It's definitely recommended that Pepto Bismol be taken in recommended doses for short periods of time. The following is information from Thomson Micromedex about Pepto Bismol on the health.yahoo.com site.

"Taking an overdose of this medicine may cause unconsciousness or death. Signs of overdose include convulsions (seizures), hearing loss, confusion, ringing or buzzing in the ears, severe drowsiness or tiredness, severe excitement or nervousness, and fast or deep breathing."

I'm not medically trained, of course, but I'm just guessing that the above would apply to taking a large amount at one time ... rather than taking it in judicious doses for a longer period of time.  Also, Pepto Bismol contains salicylate as well as bismuth -- so these warnings may be as a result of that particular compound or may just apply to the salicylate.  We don't know what was in the bismuth powders that were used in the 1800's, do we? 

I think salicylate is a salt, and sodium is a salt?
Would that be too much salt?  Do you know anything more about salicylate?

Here ya' go, salicylate is from willow bark, I think its the stuff that goes into aspirin.

Background: The use of salicylates dates back 2500 years when Hippocrates recommended the use of willow bark to relieve the pain of childbirth. Salicylic acid is the extract from willow bark that produces the analgesic effect. Today, salicylates are used in many over-the-counter and prescription medications for their analgesic, anti-inflammatory,, and antipyretic properties. Salicylate ingestion was a common cause of poisoning and death in children in the United States prior to the 1970s, when legislation requiring childproof packaging on medications was passed. Despite the reduction of poisonings because of repackaging, salicylate toxicity remains a significant cause of morbidity and mortality today.


Pathophysiology: Acid/base disturbances, electrolyte abnormalities, and central nervous system effects characterize salicylate poisoning. The wide range of toxic effects varies depending on age of the patient and whether the ingestion is chronic or acute.

And heres more info on Bismuth Subsalicylate:

Bismuth subsalicylate ( BIS-muth sub-sa-LIS-a-late) is used to treat diarrhea. It is also used to relieve the symptoms of an upset stomach, such as heartburn, indigestion, and nausea.

This medicine is available without a prescription; however, your doctor may have special instructions on the proper use and dose for your medical problem. Bismuth subsalicylate is available in the following dosage forms:

Oral
Oral suspension (U.S. and Canada)
Tablets (U.S.)
Chewable tablets (U.S. and Canada)



Before Using This Medicine
If you are taking this medicine without a prescription, carefully read and follow any precautions on the label. For bismuth subsalicylate, the following should be considered:

Allergies—Tell your doctor if you have ever had any unusual or allergic reaction to bismuth subsalicylate or to other salicylates, such as aspirin, including methyl salicylate (oil of wintergreen), or to any of the following medicines:

Carprofen (e.g., Rimadyl)
Diclofenac (e.g., Voltaren)
Diflunisal (e.g., Dolobid)
Fenoprofen (e.g., Nalfon)
Floctafenine (e.g., Idarac)
Flurbiprofen taken by mouth (e.g., Ansaid)
Ibuprofen (e.g., Motrin)
Indomethacin (e.g., Indocin)
Ketoprofen (e.g., Orudis)
Ketorolac (e.g., Toradol)
Meclofenamate (e.g., Meclomen)
Mefenamic acid (e.g., Ponstel)
Naproxen (e.g., Naprosyn)
Oxyphenbutazone (e.g., Tandearil)
Phenylbutazone (e.g., Butazolidin)
Piroxicam (e.g., Feldene)
Sulindac (e.g., Clinoril)
Suprofen (e.g., Suprol)
Tiaprofenic acid (e.g., Surgam)
Tolmetin (e.g., Tolectin)
Zomepirac (e.g., Zomax)
Also tell your health care professional if you are allergic to any other substances, such as certain foods, sulfites or other preservatives, or dyes.

Diet—Make certain your health care professional knows if you are on any special diet, such as a low-sodium or low-sugar diet.

Pregnancy—The occasional use of bismuth subsalicylate is not likely to cause problems in the fetus or in the newborn baby. However, based on what is known about the use of other salicylates, especially at high doses and for long periods of time, the following information may also apply for bismuth subsalicylate.

Salicylates have not been shown to cause birth defects in humans. However, studies in animals have shown that salicylates may cause birth defects.

There is a chance that regular use of salicylates late in pregnancy may cause unwanted effects on the heart or blood flow in the fetus or in the newborn infant.

Use of salicylates during the last 2 weeks of pregnancy may cause bleeding problems in the fetus before or during delivery or in the newborn infant. Also, too much use of salicylates during the last 3 months of pregnancy may increase the length of pregnancy, prolong labor, cause other problems during delivery, or cause severe bleeding in the mother before, during, or after delivery.

Breast-feeding—Salicylates pass into the breast milk. Although they have not been shown to cause problems in nursing babies, it is possible that problems may occur if large amounts of salicylates are taken regularly.

Children—The fluid loss caused by diarrhea may result in a severe condition. For this reason, medicine for diarrhea must not be given to young children (under 3 years of age) without first checking with their doctor. In older children with diarrhea, medicine for diarrhea may be used, but it is also very important that a sufficient amount of liquids be given to replace the fluid lost by the body. If you have any questions about this, check with your health care professional.

Also, children are usually more sensitive to the effects of salicylates, especially if they have a fever or have lost large amounts of body fluid because of vomiting, diarrhea, or sweating.

The bismuth in this medicine may cause severe constipation in children.

In addition, do not use this medicine to treat nausea or vomiting in children or teenagers who have or are recovering from the flu or chickenpox. If nausea or vomiting is present, check with the child's doctor because this could be an early sign of Reye's syndrome.

Older adults—The fluid loss caused by diarrhea may result in a severe condition. For this reason, elderly persons with diarrhea should not take this medicine without first checking with their doctor. It is also very important that a sufficient amount of liquids be taken to replace the fluid lost by the body. If you have any questions about this, check with your health care professional.

Also, the elderly may be more sensitive to the effects of salicylates. This may increase the chance of side effects during treatment. In addition, the bismuth in this medicine may cause severe constipation in the elderly.

Other medicines—Although certain medicines should not be used together at all, in other cases two different medicines may be used together even if an interaction might occur. In these cases, your doctor may want to change the dose, or other precautions may be necessary. When taking bismuth subsalicylate it is especially important that your health care professional know if you are taking any of the following:

Anticoagulants (blood thinners) or
Heparin—The salicylate in this medicine may increase the chance of bleeding
Antidiabetics, oral (diabetes medicine you take by mouth)—This medicine may make the levels of sugar in the blood become too low
Medicine for pain and/or inflammation (except narcotics)—If these medicines contain salicylates, use of bismuth subsalicylate (which also contains salicylate) may lead to increased side effects and overdose
Probenecid (e.g., Benemid) or
Sulfinpyrazone (e.g., Anturane)—Bismuth subsalicylate may make these medicines less effective for treating gout
Tetracyclines by mouth (medicine for infection)—The tablet form of bismuth subsalicylate should be taken at least 1 to 3 hours before or after tetracyclines; otherwise it may decrease the effectiveness of the tetracycline

Other medical problems—The presence of other medical problems may affect the use of bismuth subsalicylate. Make sure you tell your doctor if you have any other medical problems, especially:
Dysentery—This condition may get worse; a different kind of treatment may be needed
Gout—The salicylate in this medicine may worsen the gout and make the medicines taken for gout less effective
Hemophilia or other bleeding problems—The salicylate in this medicine may increase the chance of bleeding
Kidney disease—There is a greater chance of side effects because the body may be unable to get rid of the bismuth subsalicylate
Stomach ulcer—Use of this medicine may make the ulcer worse

From this site:  http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/uspdi/202092.html

WHEW!
Well thanks.  I hope you copy/pasted.  Thanks for the site mention.
I guess we know now it is still used and available?
I only looked in my dictionary and found it was a *salt*.
I suppose too much of anything can ruin the kidneys or liver and side effects which oppose each other can always be dangerous.

You're welcome.  Yes, I did the ol' cut and paste, too much good information there!  I guess I won't have to worry about any of that as I don't take Pepto, it makes me even more nauseous.