By harry on Thursday, 12/20/2001 - 01:19
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Why was Lizzie always avoiding her uncle John V. Morse?
He testified he had visited in June and he didn't see
her. Again in July he visited and didn't see her. He didn't
see her when he arrived on Aug. 3 in the early afternoon.
He didn't see her that night when she returned from her
visit with Alice Russell and went straight to her room.
He didn't see her the morning of the 4th for breakfast
or before he left. His testimony at the preliminary when
he finally see's her at the house after the murders is
as follows: Q. Did you see Miss Lizzie when you got there?
A. After I had been in the house two or three minutes,
I saw her. Q. Where did you see her then? A. In the dining
room, sitting on the lounge. Q. Did you have any talk
with her then? A. A very little, just spoke to her, and
that was all. Q. What did you say to her? A. I cannot
tell. I might have said, for God?s sake, how did this
happen? Or something like that. Q. You do not remember
of any reply she made? A. No Sir. She either didn't answer
or said very little. Morse corresponded with Emma when
in Hastings but testified he never received a letter from
Lizzie in his life. What's with these two?
By stefani on Thursday, 12/20/2001 - 01:53
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Great question Harry, and one that has bothered me for
a long long time. IF they are in cahoots about these murders
then we cannot take what they say about not seeing each
other as the truth. They appear to be deliberately distancing
themselves from the other. Or did they really not like
each other? Since we know Morse lived in that house for
almost a year once, maybe she learned to dislike him then.
I have always wondered if he ever paid Andrew rent for
that year. Maybe Andrew let him live for free and Lizzie
resented it. Maybe he made a pass at her. Since he was
her dead mother's brother, you would think she would be
close to him. But since she was not, there MUST be something
else going on. That is IF we believe their statements
about not seeing each other every time he visited.
By raystephanson on Thursday, 12/20/2001
- 02:28 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link] ------------------------------------------------------------------------
My contribution is on the other board; I do not want to
post twice. From AR Brown's book: it seems as if they
are acting like they hardly know or interact with each
other. Because of the 'Boston Globe' hoax, or ?
By dave on Thursday, 12/20/2001 - 07:16
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Stefani, re: Lizzie's supposedly cool relations with Morse:
its just possible that the year that Morse stayed with
the Bordens back in the 1870s, Lizzie may have been molested
by him. There have been various good studies giving a
credible account of the incest theory. Its only a theory,
but a reasonable one. John Morse didnt have many friends,
it is said, and he was thought by some to be an unpleasant
sort. This too may have contributed to Lizzie not getting
along with him. But I think this has been exaggerated.
He and Lizzie could have been on reasonably good terms
but just not real good friends, thats all. Andrew and
Morse wrote to each other and Andrew wanted to talk over
a business deal/land deed transfer with him. Perhaps regarding
the Swansea farms? Lizzie tries to nap but she cant cuz
theyre talking downstairs. She overhears something she
doesnt like. Oh no Abby wont get that! says Lizzie. The
next morning, a whack 'n' a crack and there's Abby on
the floor in a widening puddle of blood that will never
be cleaned out of the Brussels carpet. Just some rampant
speculation
By kat on Thursday, 12/20/2001 - 10:26
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As one reads the Inquest, it's obvious Lizzie stumbles
when first asked about Morse. There is certainly "something
going on'. I also believe there is a distinct and obvious
"distancing" by Lizzie in regards to her uncle.
Pg.53: Q: How many times this last year has he been at
your house? A: None at all to speak of; nothing more than
a night or two at a time. Q: How often did he come to
spend a night or two? A: Really I don't know; I AM AWAY
SO MUCH MYSELF. Q: Your last answer is that you don't
know how much he has been here, because you had been away
yourself so much? A: Yes. Q: That is true the last year,
or since he has been east? A: I HAVE NOT BEEN AWAY THE
LAST YEAR SO MUCH, but other times I have been away when
he has been here. ........ Pg. 54: Q: During the last
year, how much of the time has he been to your house?
A: VERY LITTLE THAT I KNOW OF. Q: Your answer to that
question before was, I DON'T KNOW BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN
AWAY SO MUCH MYSELF. A: I DID NOT MEAN I HAD BEEN AWAY
VERY MUCH MYSELF THE LAST YEAR. Q: How much have you been
away the last year? A: I have been away a great deal in
the daytime, occasionally at night. Q: Where in the daytime,
any particular place? A: No, around town. Q: When you
go off nights, where? A: NEVER, UNLESS I HAVE BEEN OFF
ON A VISIT. ........ --THEN, THE "KICKER": Q:
My question is when he came there? A: I DON'T KNOW; I
WAS NOT AT HOME WHEN HE CAME; I WAS OUT. ...... On page
55 she says she was at home and heard him earlier than
suppertime Wednesday; that she had been in her room, ill,
all day. -I was trying to give her the benefit of the
doubt as to "semantics" when I read this for
the umpteenth time...figuring she meant she was out at
Alice's "when he came"(which would be the 2nd
time he came that day.) But then she says she heard him
earlier than suppertime (5 or 6ish?)- but he was gone
to Swansea by 3:30 or 4 p.m. If they ate at 5 then this
could still be a possible intrepretation of these words--BUT:
Then she goes and contradicts herself.
By harry on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 12:03
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Uncle Morse's Preliminary testimony as regarding his stay
at the Borden house: Q. Your living in Mr. Borden?s house,
has only been since the deaths? A. That is all. Q. Have
you ever lived there before, in Mr. Borden?s house? A.
I was there a year seventeen years ago. Q. That is, stayed
there a year? A. Yes Sir. Subtracting the 17 from 1892
we get the year 1875. Lizzie was 15, uncle John 42. Lizzie
quit school the following year at the age of 16. Any connection?
It is also interesting that Rebello's bio on Morse (pages
70-71) does not mention his stay of a year at the Bordens.
He was busy buying land in Iowa in 1873 and 1876. Rebello
cites the stay on page 75 and uses the Preliminary as
his source. Seems rather odd that he is busy in building
his Iowa farm and then leaves it for a year, and then
goes back to building it again.
By stefani on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 02:13
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Morse is an odd duck. He bought a farm then leased it
out for the income. He traveled a lot and mainly lived
with friends and family all his life ---not in his own
home--- freeloader??? Another super weird thing: he had
a little boat, remember? A farmer/butcher with a boat.
He kept it in Fall River and stayed on it sometimes. Why
did he live in Fall River for a whole year? Abby didn't
like him (or so says that spurious Bridget interview in
the Knowton papers conducted by the wife of McHenry).
Also, when he stayed a year he lived on the third floor.
Before Bridget, but perhaps there was another maid then?
By stefani on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 02:14
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Images of Morse and his sister Sarah. Notice the crazy
eyes. Intense and odd. They don't look like anybody else.
By stefani on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 02:51
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Those were the thumbnails from my website. Here are the
larger versions for you to see it more clearly.
By raystephanson on Friday, 12/21/2001
- 03:09 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link] ------------------------------------------------------------------------
I won't speculate on why some persons imagine the worst
possible reasons (Lizzie and Uncle John); it must be personal.
Wouldn't Abby or Andy do something? Why did Uncle John
emigrate to Iowa anyway? Unlucky in love or what? Think
about this from your own life: would any 15 year old girl
want to hang out with a real old guy? Then or now? Think
about the generation gap. Why is the image of Uncle John
so much sharper than the one of Sarah?
By harry on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 04:27
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If you are referring to me "Ray", NO its is
NOT personal. That I consider a DAMN insult.
By kat on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 09:30 pm
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We have ALL, at one time or another, have had to include
an incest scenario, as distatful as it seems, to find
motivation for the Sheer HATE involved in the butchery
of these people. Ray, you may be the only person involved
with the study of the crimes who HaSn'T, since the 1960's!
Money was not enough, property rights were not enough,
longing for higher status was NOT ENOUGH to fuel such
HATE! So we look to the subconscience sometimes for answers-
or medical reasons, or drug abuse or even alcohol--something
MORE was at work here. Also, as I've said before: these
murders did not happen in a vacuum--there are boiling,
seething undercurrents flowing like lava, ready to ERUPT!
So you wonder (well, maybe you don't) WHAT was the cause
of so much venom-and some published authors came up with
plots that obviously seemed plausible to publishers that
encompassed retribution for incestuous acts committed
UPON one of these young girls. No one here is proscibing
that as the only possibility--but we ALL are questioning,
and when we're dealing with the BLACK HEART of MURDER,
we have to delve into the "abyss."
By kat on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 09:49 pm
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And I think the Morse boat was in New Bedford, but as
Stef would say, "No, it was in the water..."
By kat on Saturday, 12/22/2001 - 04:37
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Well, what Morse testified to, and what REALLY happened
could be two different things, couldn't they? For instance,
Wednesday night the door of Lizzie and the door of Morse
were just feet apart, and he says he slept with his door
OPEN. So the possibility can't be excluded that they met
to consult as to the next days activities...(we're talking
about liars here).
By raystephanson on Sunday, 12/23/2001
- 07:13 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link] ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please read "Scorpion Tongues" or other books
on the "need" for gossip. Why do some people
invent the worst possible reasons for something, or somebody's
success. Like those who say Marilyn Monroe slept her way
into show business; I'm sure it was just her natural talent
and personality, like "screen presence". But
I may be wrong! "Scorpion Tongues" says gossip
is just a way to bring down notable personalities to a
common level. Agree?
By harry on Sunday, 12/23/2001 - 08:35
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I guess the "Scorpion Tongue" also belongs to
the folks who insist on William S. Borden as the "true"
murderer. What a crock! Talk about gossip.
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/24/2001
- 01:19 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link] ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Literally, "gossip" occurs to anything personal
said about a person, even if the talker witnessed it (which
almost never happens). "Scorpion tongues" refer
to those who make up or exaggerate the reasons behing
people's actions. Why did Lizzie or Emma leave money to
charity? To spite relatives, or to buy salvation thru
good works for their sins and crimes?
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/24/2001
- 01:21 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link] ------------------------------------------------------------------------
The book "Scorpion Tongues" says gossip is some
people's way to make the famous appear no better than
themselves. Of course, I meant no personal insults to
anyone posting to this board in the past, present, or
future. And I'm certain you'll send me that nice present
you promised.
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/24/2001
- 01:24 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link] ------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, then, just WHY did McHenry and Trickey create and
publish a story about "Lizzie being with child"
when the police present KNEW she was having her period?
Did somebody take advantage of people's gullibility to
create scandalous gossip? And why would they tend to believe
it?
By kat on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 10:13 pm
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What I consider "gossip" in this case: Andrew
as a miser Lizzie as klepto Lizzie as cat killer Lizzie
as a lesbian Abby as a friendless "dowd" Bowen
as too "friendly" with Lizzie Lizzie's "engagement"
Lizzie's "deathbed confession" to Ruby Cameron
Any others ?
By raystephanson on Wednesday, 12/26/2001
- 02:21 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link] ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy a miser is NOT gossip; you don't go from being a
carpenter to the richest man in town by being a spendthrift!!!
(Trust me on this.) He lived far below his means; a good
way to save money, if not become rich (trust me again).
Abby certainly had her family and friends; she also walked
to church with Lizzie. The newspaper reports of an engagement,
if not fiction, may have been true; a rich girl (then
or now) is always a good catch, particulary if the law
of the time meant you would gain control of her fortune.
The rest as "gossip" (you mean 'groundless speculation')
should be assumed lacking any reliable evidence (written
then, with two or more contemporary witnesses). Nance
O'Neil (like any current star performer you can think
of) would have admirers, regardless of a hidden side.
Don't read history backwards.
By dave on Thursday, 12/27/2001 - 01:08
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Andrew certainly lived far below his means, but "the
girls" werent suffering. They were bored, however.
But at least physically, they had all the necessities
(food on the table and a roof over their heads), well,
except for modern lighting, warm-running water, and a
bathroom on the first floor. Psychologically, this was
not a warm loving household for the last 10 years or so
especially. I definitely agree that Abby wasnt as friendless
as she may have seemed. I wonder if the rumors in 1896
of Lizzie's engagement to Mr. Gardner, the school teacher,
might have been true. He was a married man, so of course
Lizzie would have had to deny that she was involved with
him. I'm looking and researching into this story, as well
as Emma's friendship with Jenny Brownell. Not saying I
believe the engagement or affair rumor about Lizzie and
Gardner, but I'm looking into it with an open mind to
see if theres anything to it. I've been told that there
may be something to it.
By kat on Thursday, 12/27/2001 - 04:55
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What I mean by "gossip" are stories that came
out about the family AFTER the murders, or after the Trial,
or after the Maplecroft years, or after the break-up of
the sisters. These stories didn't circulate while the
victims were alive--even the robbery was unknown. If we
apply the "rule of the 'tell-a-secret' " game
mentioned before on post, we get dubious tid-bits of info
"embellished" to make them more interesting-per
Ray's previous remarks.
By raystephanson on Thursday, 12/27/2001
- 05:50 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link] ------------------------------------------------------------------------
While 'gossip' may mean stories about a person, usually
it means something that was NOT witnessed by the teller;
hearsay. Often embellished or exaggerated, if not made
up. Its value as evidence is little (except as 'public
opinion').
By kat on Friday, 12/28/2001 - 04:06 am
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For much of this we have unlikly sources to "thank"-Past
first curator of the FRHS(Miss Winslow?), her successor:
Mrs. Gifford (of Lizzie klepto story), sainted Flo Brigham,
malicious Abby Potter, and the "2nd generation gang":
Sylvia Knowlton Lewis, Mrs. Dwight (Jennings) Waring,
and Eva (Kelly) Betz. Oh, and those "doctors daughters"
who lived on the Hill-(2nd generational stories, ALL).
-Agnes de Mille, A Dance of Death, 78-92. -I think I object
most to the "gossip" by the Historical Society
Ladies. The rest is understandable...
By kat on Saturday, 12/29/2001 - 06:14
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I still say Andrew Borden was not a miser, at least where
his family was concerned: He earned enough to move them
out of the Paternal Household, buying their very own home.
He renovated it to their needs at the time. Eventually
added furnace and steam radiators. Put in City water mains
as soon as it was available. Bought 1/4 house for Abby
to let her little sister live in rent-free. GAVE Emma
and Lizzie a house. Sent Lizzie on a Grand Tour of Europe-19
weeks! Gave her a seal-skin cape. Apparently paid the
girls dress allowance. Gave them some stocks and bonds.
(Some say paid Lizzie's "klepto bills"-but not
believable) Gave Abby and the girls an allowance. They've
got Mutton roast on Sunday, and during the week, swordfish
and pork steak-a varied menu. Anybody think of anything
else POSITIVE?
By raystephanson on Saturday, 12/29/2001
- 02:57 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link] ------------------------------------------------------------------------
to "kat" etc. "It depends on your definition
of 'miser'". Given his wealth, he certainly under-consumed
and lived below his means.