The Lizzie Borden Society archive

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1. "Autopsy"
Posted by adminlizzieborden on Jan-8th-02 at 9:30 PM

By kat on Friday, 12/07/2001 - 11:27 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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At
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com
there is a front page.
The front page has a box called "Autopsies", and it's purple (actually it's eggplant-coloured)...
When you go there, at the bottom, now have been added 3 pictures of Andrew, one being different from the other 2.
This "different" photo is one I'm interested in.
I've been waiting for someone to stumble on them and want comments about this picture.
Do you see what I see? And WHY is it?

 
By tinar on Friday, 12/07/2001 - 11:34 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Kat, I think you need to be a bit more specific, thanks!

 
By harry on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 12:48 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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The picture is not very clear. If it is of Andrew on the couch he's lying in the wrong direction. It looks like the picture has beem "flipped".

 
By stefani on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 03:53 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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But the correct arm is bent. His right arm is bent. Is it the shoulder?

 
By kat on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 06:31 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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"The picture is flipped" is Close, Harry.
But Stef has a point.
The correct arm is bent, at the correct angle.
But in this photo the LEFT shoulder is DOWN, while in the photo's we've seen till now, the Right shoulder is down--That's why the pic. looks Flipped...
I wondered if it was flipped in some way (Reverse negative?)..but for the angle of the right arm.
So how is this explained?
His face is straight up, not lying on it's side "facing the windows" as in the testimony...and that same testimony says he was not moved. So which "Andrew On The Couch" photo is the original and correct one?
There's also a little something else to see...who notices? (It's just an interesting little thing...)

 
By kat on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 07:45 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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BTW: Tina R., I'm sorry to post & disappear but I had a lot of trouble with my e-mail server tonight. I tried to explain privately but when I clicked on your tinar it wouldn't "load".

 
By harry on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 11:09 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Here's Andrew "flipped back" into the position we are used to seeing him. The original is not flipped. Note the hatchet marks on the wrong side of the head when you flip the original. So if he is on the couch he has been moved. Am I seeing this right? (or have I flipped)

 
By kat on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 11:18 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Harry: That was brilliant of you to do that. You've created proof.
Also do you see the watch chain coming from his pocket (UNDISTURBED)?

 
By billu on Sunday, 12/09/2001 - 04:14 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Yes, Harry, you've flipped!
If you look at the original photo from the Fall River Historical Society, you will note that the white antimacassar (or doily, or whatever it is)
is on the RIGHT side of Andrew's head, not the left side as you have depicted it.
The picture on Stefani's web site is correct. The only difference is Andrew's head has been moved to a vertical 12 o'clock position, in place of the the original horizontal 9 o'clock position that it occupied in the photograph

 
By harry on Sunday, 12/09/2001 - 06:57 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I know billu, the picture I posted is a "mirror" image of the one at Stefani's site. The right would appear as the left and the left as the right. I also rotated it to that angle.

If you look in a mirror, and hold up your right arm it will appear to be your left arm in the mirror.

Yes, Kat I can make out the faint outline of the watch chain. Would not have seen it by myself though. You have good eyes.

 
By kat on Sunday, 12/09/2001 - 09:40 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Yea, but bill, the wrong shoulder is "raised"..
The left shoulder should be UP & the right shoulder should be Down, whereas in the photo the opposite is so. Therefore more was "done" to the body than just moving the face straight up. The whole upper body position is changed (opposite to what we're used to seeing-so WHY is this?)-and now how do we know which is the "crime scene in situ" photo?

 
By stefani on Monday, 12/10/2001 - 12:52 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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In the preliminary hearing, Doherty testifies that he moved the bed up stairs right away to get a better look at Abby. He is asked if he moved it back, and he insists he did not. He also states that there was only three or so inches between her and the furniture, hence the reason to move the bed to investigate her body.

I have every reason to believe that both crime scenes were compromised in some very serious ways in regards to body positioning. There were too many people trapsing through the house. Doherty testifies that there were THREE reporters in the sitting room when he arrived back the second time. Kat once did a count of the number of doctors that were in the house at one time or other that morning---and each must have touched the bodied to do their probing.

The photos were taken sometime around three pm were they not? Plenty of time to move it all around and then try to put it all back, unsuccessfully.

 
By kashesan on Monday, 12/10/2001 - 09:58 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Jeesh-that is one gory picture (never saw that one before)

 
By billu on Monday, 12/10/2001 - 12:41 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Kat:

Take the picture on Stefani's website, and rotate it 90 degrees to the left. Now compare it with the original "Andrew-on-the-couch" photo and you will discover that it is in the exact, same orientation.

When I enlarged the head portion of the original photo, I erected the image. I didn't want everyone to get a stiff neck by twisting their heads to the left in order to view it.
Use the white anticamassar as a positioning guide.

 
By kat on Monday, 12/10/2001 - 11:16 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Oh Shite!
I was writing, hit delete for 1 letter, & ended up in limbo at the Topics page! BOO.
Start again.
Yes, I see what you mean, now, billu. I drew the photo posted here and went to the web-site and held it up to the Andrew on the Couch picture, rotated it, and found what you described! My eyes just don't work that way by themselves--at least they don't inform my brain, that I know of...
So the face turned straight up is the only difference.
In the Shots in the Dark book, they described the forensic police photo crime scene protocols in effect at that time, and it was to photograph from every angle, including from right AbovE the victim, usually while standing on a ladder. I thought maybe this was one of those, but was not listed in the testimony--but, hey, they didn't "shoot" Abby from above either!
The watch chain wasn't disturbed so there might not have been any struggle, let alone any warning...like the "standing/facing" theory...
Also that watch chain would explain why Lizzie knew her father's watch was not stolen, so soon into her police interviews.
BTW: Does anyone else accidently type Lixxie, besides me?
I am not going to delete for errors or misspellings because I'm now shy of that darn "delete" key...so take it as it comes..and I'm now going to watch football!