The Lizzie Borden Society archive

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1. "andrew's couch"
Posted by adminlizzieborden on Jan-8th-02 at 9:40 PM

By stefani on Wednesday, 11/21/2001 - 07:59 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I've been staring and staring with a magnifying glass at the four photos in SHOTS IN THE DARK (abby without bed from side with puddle of blood, abby with bed from feet, andrew on couch, and autopsy photo of andrew) and have just seen something I hadn't noticed before.

Andrew's couch appears to have small casters on the legs. That means, if I am seeing correctly, that the couch moves! Significance?

 
By stefani on Wednesday, 11/21/2001 - 08:11 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Here is the photo. Then I include a close up of one leg. What do you think?



 
By harry on Wednesday, 11/21/2001 - 08:52 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Here's a bigger picture of the close-up. I like the ornate trim on the arm. Cool shoes Andy.

 
By tina on Thursday, 11/22/2001 - 03:21 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I still wonder why, with all the decorating that was done to make that house look good, that there would be a picture very uneven over that couch. That does not match up in my mind!
Tina

 
By dave on Thursday, 11/22/2001 - 03:26 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Can u guys give me a super close-up of Andrew's face? thanks.

 
By kat on Thursday, 11/22/2001 - 04:40 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I had originally thought that the couch had been moved, and Bowen supports this SOMEWHAT, and ambigiously in his statement.
Stef and I talked it over slightly today, and it's deduced that if Andrew's blows were from the front, facing, that and his falling back, might shift the couch more toward the dining room door(where Bowen thinks it doesn't belong..HARRY?). Then we tried to picture an event that would move the couch other than the attack, and the possibilities are up to you...any ideas?

 
By stefani on Thursday, 11/22/2001 - 03:17 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Dave, you mean like this?

 
By dave on Thursday, 11/22/2001 - 05:42 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Yup, thats good stef. Can i see the same thing enlarged?

 
By stefani on Friday, 11/23/2001 - 01:08 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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do you mean closer or bigger?

 
By dave on Friday, 11/23/2001 - 02:20 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Bigger is better 

 
By kashesan on Friday, 11/23/2001 - 10:12 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Tina,
Just speculating here but do you think it was shifted off center to allow easier access to that door to the kitchen just to the right of the couch? (However you can't deny that it certainly facilitated an ax-weilding murderer behind the dining room door)

 
By stefani on Friday, 11/23/2001 - 04:31 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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andrew on the couch close up.

 
By stefani on Friday, 11/23/2001 - 04:35 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Ok, say the couch has casters and can roll pretty easily. That may mean that the couch moved during the attack. Or that the couch moved as Andrew "fell back" onto it as he was hit from the front (right Dave?), or that the couch was rolled by the good doctor Bowen for some reason or the photographers when they moved the furniture to take the picture.

The IMPORTANT thing here is that the placement of the feet on the floor, that awkward slant to the reclining Andrew MIGHT be explained by a moving couch, not a sleeping man caught unawares. Any comments?

 
By tina on Friday, 11/23/2001 - 06:30 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Yeah I do think there is something in the theory of moving them for the lighting of the photos. I believe it was that they did not get enough light etc. in the position of the couch, therefore they moved the couch in order to get better lighting. Just my opinion though.
Tina

 
By dave on Friday, 11/23/2001 - 08:26 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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An interesting question, Stef. I'm almost certain the couch didnt have casters, or that it moved when Andrew fell back, but Eric Stedman would probably be the best guy to ask, as he explored in detail the frontal attack theory in his rehearsals for the play.

There are at least 4 or 5 news sources that say that there was a hatchet leaning by the sitting-room fireplace, and it is alleged that Bridget testified to seeing a hatchet there in her inquest testimony (which is perhaps being held by the Robinson firm and no one is allowed to see it!) . Anyway, along with the direction/location of the blood spatters and the skull wounds, this too seems to suggest that Lizzie or whoever simply snatched up the hatchet from the fireplace after closing the sitting-room window curtains and simply whacked Andrew from the front.

 


By kat on Saturday, 11/24/2001 - 01:52 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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The dining room door (to the sitting room) had hinges on the sofa side, and opened IN to the dining room with the door knob away from the couch, on the east side of the door, by the parlor door. Would that door, once open, then "shield" anyone? Wouldn't the person have to actually Enter the room to reach Andrew, whether lying down OR sitting up?

 
By raystephanson on Sunday, 11/25/2001 - 06:02 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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In EH Porter's book somebody mentions that the couch had been moved; it's end had been even with the door frame.
Porter's book lacks not just an index, but a list of chapters. Was it a quicky exploitation book?
Why was it supressed? Everyone knew the facts, and Lizzie was found not guilty.

 
By kat on Sunday, 11/25/2001 - 10:45 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Dave: How can ANYONE know if that couch had casters or not? Stef watches a lot of Antiques Roadshow that feature just such period pieces THAT DO have casters (she also has the book of the show). The "Shots In The Dark" book's photo of the bureau in the Guest room seems to also show casters on that heavy piece of furniture. Stef has the book now, but that's what she thought she saw.

 
By kat on Sunday, 11/25/2001 - 11:58 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Revise post of 11/23-10:52p.m.IF ANYBODY CARES:
The doorknob to the dining room door was on the WEST side of the door--the FRONT ENTRANCE SIDE.
oops-me and my compass directions!

 
By tinar on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 02:48 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Is it just me?...it looks as tho what's on the right side of the photo is a caster, otherwise, the leg oddly curves inward at its base. It's hard to tell, but the left side doesn't look like it has a caster at all. Come to think of it, when you look closely, the whole sofa looks very odd in this picture, as tho the left side is disproportionately smaller than the right. It could be the camera angle, but I'm not so sure. The wood carving on the left looks slightly different & smaller, almost like a fainting couch. Maybe Andrew bought flawed furniture in his "thriftiness"?

 
By kat on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 04:02 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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You know, you've got a point! I thought I saw something similar, and so didn't post about the sofa caster when I had access to the "Shot's In The Dark" book.
I didn't seem to see one on the LEFT foot, so couldn't be sure there WAS one on the right. I decided it was a pattern on the carpet--but after seeing the "metal shine" on the "close-up" I decided there was at least ONE. And, yes, I thought it might be an unproportioned sofa-not really a sofa at all, but a "lounge"? Where one side is higher than the other? With different carving because the arm was a different size and shape...Thank goddess I'm not the only one seeing things!....

 
By dave on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 04:12 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Kat-woman, I think u and Tina have better eyes than me. Maybe yr right about the casters or "wheels"(?) on the legs, I just havent heard of any. Maybe ask Martha McGinn (owner of the B&B) or probably Bill Pavao would know for sure. Bill or Len.

 
By kat on Monday, 11/26/2001 - 11:00 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I thought I was officially now "Krazy Kat"?
BTW: We have a TINA, and a TINA R.(tinar), just so we all know who we're talking to...
BTW 2: My eyes are terrible! But one right side does show a wheel, but maybe not the other(left). If that coat weren't draped where it is we'd be better able to tell if the sofa was a "lounge."
But DO you see the right arm of the lounge is much Bigger than the left?
BTW 3: What good is a bigger picture of Andrew's face? I've been wondering about that...

 
By harry on Friday, 11/30/2001 - 04:54 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Here's some more mystery as to whether that couch was moved around. This is from the Preliminary, page 96. Knowlton is questioning Dolan.

A. Five spots that is, on the moulding that is behind the lounge. The first one was seven and a half inches east of the door jamb, east of the east side of the door jamb. The next was seven and three-quarters inches.
Q. Were they behind the lounge?
A. Yes.
Q. You could not see them until you took the lounge away?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did that lounge have a back?
A. It was taken back for the purpose of measurement.
Q. It was a lounge that had a back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The back of the lounge was between these spots and where the man was, where the head was?
A. Yes Sir, that is right.

Now just how did that blood get BEHIND the sofa?

 
By kat on Friday, 11/30/2001 - 11:33 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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You lucky duck! You've got the Preliminary!
Will you see if Bowen says the couch was in a different position in relation to the door, IN THE PHOTO'S, than what he remembered?
Cause we're beginning to believe the couch WAS MOVED. (also, see "RAY"-11/25 post)

 
By harry on Saturday, 12/01/2001 - 12:32 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Just glancing through the Prelim. Kat I do not see anything about the sofa being in a different position. Bowen does mention he thought the body in the photos was lower than when he had seen it. Are you sure it was in the Preliminary.

 
By harry on Saturday, 12/01/2001 - 12:44 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Aha Kat, I think I found what you may be looking for. This from the Trial transcript, page 303. Bowen is the witness testifying and Moody is doing the questioning except where noted.

THE WITNESS. The only change I see, the head is a little lower. That is the only change I can see.
Q. Is there any change in the position of the sofa from it's position as you saw it?
A. It shows here so it is out from the door. It was even with the door. It shows here, the way it was taken probably, in that direction.
Q. Now will you state the same thing so the gentlemen on this side of the panel can hear?
A. The sofa shows so it was out from the middle of the door here, and the head of the sofa was even with the door.
Q. (By Mr. Adams.) The door frame?
A. The door frame.
Q. (By Mr. Moody.) And how about the position of the body?
A. The position of the body seems settled a little more than it was when I saw it first.

They are referring to Exhibit #17, a photograph.

 
By kat on Saturday, 12/01/2001 - 04:46 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I knew you'd come through, Harry! Many thanks!
The thing is, I've only read a few bits and pieces of the TRIAL, but thought I knew the Prelim. by heart! That's why I sent you there.
That's The Ticket...service above and beyond the call of duty...
Now, just what does this all mean...?

 

Can we get pictures here?
(Easy for ME to ask, right?....)

We want PICTURES, PICTURES, PICTURES here !!!!!!
HINT HINT