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Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
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Topic Name: this old house

1. "this old house"
Posted by adminlizzieborden on Jan-8th-02 at 9:54 PM

By kat on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 09:07 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Late last Sunday night/morn., happened to catch the second episode I had seen on an old house being renovated in (?)Westport, Mass. Thay had spent all last segment , and this one, down in the cellar with the Master Plumber.
It was explained that apparently in these old houses the City was responsible for the water line TO THE HOUSE, but then the lines IN THE HOUSE were at the expense and maintanance of the homeowner. They had no WATER PRESSURE in this house, to get the water up a couple of floors (defying gravity, it seems). This was the homeowners personal problem. They installed a 2 piece pumping system that cost over $600 to pump the water to the upper floors. And this all originated IN THE CELLAR.
It occurred to me that that may be why Andrew never had water lines to the 2nd and third floors! No Pressure! And it may have been a BIG DEAL (like it was to this NEW owner of an OLD house), and expensive to supply those upper floors with water.

 
By kashesan on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 10:19 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Uh-oh,
In my "Maplecroft" story I have Lizzie's master bath including a shower stall. Not possible then? (No there's not a Psycho-like shower scene)

 
By raystephanson on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 03:18 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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The house on 92 Second St DID have water on the second floor when it was a two-family tenement. Andy had them shut off to save money (extra water bill).

When I was much much younger I had relatives who had a small house with the toilet down in the basement, water to upstairs kitchen, bedrooms on second floor. A simple house from 1860s.

I believe showers were non-existent or rare prior to WW 2; that experience made them in vogue (or WW 1). Showers invented around 1890s for military men: get rid of dirt and lice at the lowest cost.

 
By kat on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 09:06 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Ray: Please to give your source on water upstairs?

Kash...I was wondering if the "outlying" areas had less pressure, but that the stately homes, even on a HILL might have first, best "pressure"?(with a little help of gravity)

 
By augusta on Saturday, 12/22/2001 - 10:48 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Kash - I read that Lizzie had a tub of her own in Maplecroft. There wasn't any mention of a shower stall then. One of the books on her, Spiering maybe, tells some about the interior of Maplecroft - like her having a Winter bedroom and a Summer bedroom for herself.

 
By raystephanson on Sunday, 12/23/2001 - 07:02 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Like everything else, it comes from the books I borrowed and read from the library. Either AR Brown or F Spiering.
Why do you ask? Don't we all know that it used to be a two-family tenement? When Andy foreclosed on this house, he converted it to a one family house. (Bigger than Grandpa's Ferry St house?)

 
By kat on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 01:18 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I asked because I had never heard Andrew had ReMOVED water lines from the upper stories. Not adding them, and "taking them out" are 2 different things.
A Two-family tenement it may well have been, but the occupants could have had to share water downstairs. (If you read it, and quote a source, I can verify...otherwise I would think you were Assuming. That's why I asked).
The water mains weren't available, as far as I know, previous to Andrew purchasing the property.

 
By kashesan on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 12:07 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Damn...

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 01:28 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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To be more accurate, Andy had them turned off. Removing pipes would be a possibility as well, during those cheap labor times (work 12 hours for $1!) to resell the pipes for scrap.

 
By kat on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 10:53 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I think the previous tenants probably used the well. Andrew brought in "City water" as soon as it was available.
I think you may be confusing the water situation with the re-modeling of the 2nd story.
I was thinking about this last night, and it recalled to me that Andrew had to REMOVE A KITCHEN from the room that became his bedroom. You may have assumed there was running water there, but this is 1872, before running water was available.
He also took out a partition that divided the dining room (as in the division on the 2nd floor that created Emma's bedroom & Abby's dressing room). He also added a furnace and radiators.

I was trying to picture it as a 2 family house:
Maybe--the parlour was the master bedroom and the dining room divided made 2 more bedrooms (depending on the family size). Then the Sitting Room would be the "common room" for the family and maybe they combined the kitchen with an eating area(That would be one family and the'd use the front door).
The 2nd story would be a duplicate, except they would have the benefit of the extra bedrooms in the attic, and they would use the side door as their front door. With the cellar in common?

So the use of the "back part" of the house, and the side door for the elder Bordens and the maid makes sense and doesn't seem so "odd" anymore.
-my own home has a "split plan" where the master suite is at the other side of the house from the childrens bedrooms...

 


2. "Re: this old house"
Posted by Kat on Jan-15th-02 at 12:41 AM
In response to Message #1.

I think I stumbled on the source of the "Andrew removing the running water upstairs" misunderstanding.  (I hadn't looked at this book for at least 5 years):

In PROCEEDINGS, Bristol Community College, Fall River, Mass. CONFERENCE, August 3-5, 1992 book, pgs. 17-18, there is an article by Margaret Judge Grenier, entitled Lizzie Borden:  Violator or Victim:

"...Andrew Borden set up a household...The house on Second Street was renovated into a one-family house.  During this renovation, the upstairs kitchen was removed, including the running water.  He believed running water was an unnecessary luxury on the second floor.  Yet five people lived in his house:  a child of five, a teenager, two adults and a maid.

"...This conversion took place in 1865."

I am in no way belittling this article as having some falsities, as surely they were not meant.  Also, the author IS published (and I am not) therefore merit must be given to her efforts.  We are lucky even now, that we have more sources & resources than were even available in 1992!

The Lizzie Borden Quarterly (due any day!) has also supplied us with other's great research efforts--and that is where the newer information resides as to running water and renovations to the Borden home at Second Street (at that time #66).

Andrew moved his family from his father's house on Ferry Street which contained, at times, up to TEN people...(Rebello, census) so downsizing to 5 seems like a dream, especially to "the teenager" (Emma).  The house was built by Southard Miller in 1845, Andrew bought & moved in in 1872, and in June of 1874 he had two faucetts installed with running water.  Sometime soon or at the same time, he added the barn faucett--this happened within months of City water first becoming available.  (LBQ, July '97).

--there is no Bibliography with this article, and footnotes are "notations" which add to the text.


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