The Lizzie Borden Society archive

Forum URL:

1. "Muttin' Much"
Posted by adminlizzieborden on Jan-8th-02 at 9:56 PM

By augusta on Friday, 11/30/2001 - 09:39 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was surprised to read in a book on Victoriana recently that mutton was a higher class meat. So laugh though we may at how many days it was served, apparently it was one of those meats that were more for the middle and upper classes.

 
By kat on Friday, 11/30/2001 - 11:09 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's your source?
Page number?
Date Read?
Weather Conditions?
Mutton is OLD SHEEP, and not high class. VEAL is high class!
It really depends on where you live...if sheep are plentiful, and available, then it is distinctly lower class. If they're scarce, then it's possible it would be a middle-class meat. But one sheep does not undo a "miser myth"--drat!

 
By augusta on Sunday, 12/02/2001 - 02:12 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read it in a book I got out at the library and just returned today called something like "Life in Victorian America" or "Everyday Life..." I was surprised to read it - maybe it was mistaken. It was a neat book, though. It was telling what was invented around 1892 - Cracker Jack was one of the things. I wonder if Lizzie tried it?

 
By kat on Sunday, 12/02/2001 - 05:45 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This sounds good!
And Harry has provided a Link to Victorian Kitchens, at the web-site. We can go see what you're talking about.
(The last time I went there I got a good recipe for making STOCK).
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com
LINKS
VICTORIAN LINKS on right
1890's VICTORIAN KITCHEN.
Thanks Harry and Augusta!

 
By kashesan on Monday, 12/03/2001 - 10:07 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Much ado about mutton?

 
By dave on Monday, 12/03/2001 - 05:24 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
yuk yuk 

Who woulda ever thought u can make a Shakespeare joke outta mutton.

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/03/2001 - 09:19 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mutton (mouton) is basically the word for cooked sheep; lamb implies a young one. Were sheep then raised for meat or for wool (or milk).

I'm not a dairy farmer, but I think there are two kinds of cows: those bred for milking, and those bred for meat (harvested by 3 years old?).

I think milch cows are also harvested by 4 years or so, after their milk output peaks. Or to avoid any long-growing diseases like BSE.

Eat those hamburgers!!! They're NOT mystery meat.

Has anyone read "Fast Food Nation"?

 
By tina on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 03:22 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wasn't it mutton soup that they supposedly ate? Would it be like beef stew or more like broth?
Tina

 
By harry on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 03:55 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tina, this is a portion of Bridget's testimony at the Preliminary, page 26. She is talking about what she had to do for dinner that day, Thursday.

Q. Do you know what the dinner was that day?
A. Yes Sir, some soup to warm over, and some cold mutton.
Q. Potatoes?
A. No Sir; potatoes in the soup.

No wonder everybody was sick.

 
By kat on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 11:06 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everybody supposedly was sick from the warmed-over swordfish on Tuesday.
Was it Alice Russell who said, "OH. gosh,Lizzie: everybody knows you DON'T warm over FISH!"

-see Chronologies-Timeline 1794(or whatever) to Day of Murder-gives menu's.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com

-Oh Hallaleuh! Harry can qoute testimony from Trial & Prelim.!!! I love it!!!!

 
By kat on Saturday, 12/08/2001 - 11:12 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com

The secret to making an address "glow"--other than getting it right, is don't EDIT!

 
By tina on Monday, 12/17/2001 - 03:52 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying for supper they had cold mutton and hot soup? If she cooked the mutton, then why did they have cold mutton?
Tina

 
By kat on Monday, 12/17/2001 - 05:46 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off, it took us a while to become informed of this "fact", that DINNER=LUNCH, and
SUPPER=THE NIGHT TIME MEAL (6-ish?).
So since I'm not sure to which meal you refer, I'll inundate you with information and you can choose...

Some sources say Bridget served the mutton (as a cooked roast) for the first time on Saturday, July 30th. I "fudged" my time-line by one day, and showed it first served on Sunday. One obvious reason is the duration of the meat, the other reasoning was that in my Penn. household, the MAIN MEAT of the week was the SUNDAY ROAST.
So I start with the mutton on Sunday, maybe with mint? on Sunday the 31st of July.

Tuesday, Aug.2 menu:
Dinner-fried swordfish
Supper-warmed over swordfish, toasted baker's bread, tea, cake & cookies.

Tues. nite into Wed, morn.- Mr. & Mrs. Borden are sick. 8/2- 8/3

Wednesday, Aug.3rd-breakfast is pork steak(like ham?), johnny cakes & coffee.

Wednesday, Aug 3rd-After breakfast Abby visits Dr. Bowen (8:30 or 9 a.m.) Then Dr. Bowen comes over to try to see Andrew.

Wednesday dinner-boiled mutton & mutton soup.
Wed. supper-same soup warmed over, bread, cake, cookies & tea.

Thursday, Aug. 4th-breakfast-cold mutton, mutton soup, johnny cakes & coffee. Fruit if wanted.

-this is from Bridget, Prelim., pgs. 52, 53 etc.

My question has been why weren't they eating those famous Swansea EGGS that Morse supposedly brought back Wednesday night?

 
By kat on Monday, 12/17/2001 - 06:02 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
By The Way, Harry, wouldn't we like to have been invited to that dinner Thursday, that never was...? Mutton or no...

 
By augusta on Saturday, 12/22/2001 - 10:41 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
They didn't eat the eggs because Andrew was selling those. They probably were going to eat what was not sold after their leftovers were finished up. "Pork steak", if it's like it is today, is like a pork chop without the bone in it and fried or broiled. I don't know if that menat the same thing in 1892. Kat, where did you read Alice saying that about not re-warming swordfish? It sounds familiar.

 
By kat on Sunday, 12/23/2001 - 08:34 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just thought "ham & eggs" sounded so much more appetizing. But if they HAD eaten the eggs Wed. for breakfast, Abby would have thrown them up anyway at Dr. Bowen's office.
OH, I can't remember who really said that about warmed over fish. It sounds like Alice, Wed. nite. I'll look around for it.(Maybe it's in the Geary comic?)

 
By raystephanson on Sunday, 12/23/2001 - 07:05 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read that those eggs sold by Andy were cracked! Not salable then or now. But he charged an extra penny, and sold to his tenants: Buy these at a high price or hit the road!
Don't you agree?

 
By kat on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 01:22 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GREEN EGGS & HAM!
I was hoping to have a chance to post THAT!

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 01:32 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
While cracked eggs are certainly edible (I've both eaten and bought "cracked" eggs - lower price at the egg factory), they're not usually sold due to health regulations now (and then?).

Visit your rural egg farm and see for yourself. Often they have no visible cracks; only seen when "candled".

 
By kat on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 11:17 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Odd you mentioned that! My housing development is BUILT on a rural egg farm pre-1964! (Mussellwhite) And 3/4 of a mile away was a Turkey farm until 1968 or so...(I don't know anything about eggs or turkeys).

 
By augusta on Saturday, 12/29/2001 - 01:13 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that if Andrew's eggs were cracked he still would have sold them. (I never read that they were cracked. Were they really?) I think he would have told people who spotted them to take them or leave them. All sources point to when it came to business, he was very set in his ways. I don't think he was like this in everyday life as much. Remembering the writeup of the funeral procession and the businessmen of Fall River tipping their hats as they went by says a good deal - respect + maybe they did like him as a person. Or maybe it was just a custom I don't know about. Someone (one of the Borden characters) said the Bordens always had a heavily laden table at mealtime. Still, I wonder about those bananas. Didn't someone say they were going bad? It does seem that Andrew - or maybe it was Abby - tried to really save on that grocery bill. Andrew harvested the eggs to sell, and he took an interest in the pears. But Abby did the shopping. Should we place more of the menu decisions on Abby?

 
By kat on Saturday, 12/29/2001 - 11:01 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems more "cost efficient" to EAT your own eggs than to sell them. And I'd not heard about "cracked" eggs either.
I think it was Emma, in Rebello, (Interview/paper?) that said Andrew kept a well-laden table.
For some reason I never believed the bananas: I guess because it was THE morning breakfast, and only Lizzie (who wasn't there) and Morse mention bananas, while Bridget who is in charge of filling the table and sideboard, doesn't remember any bananas.
The menu's WOULD definetly be ABBY-but they did have a variety to eat that week.
I wonder if the food budget came out of Abby's allowance? She mentions some of her household expenses came from her own allowance, whereas the "girls" could do what they pleased with theirs. If so, you'd think Abby'd be thin as a rail, if HER $ had to buy the groceries for those ungrateful girls!