The Lizzie Borden Society archive

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1. "Why Lizzie Why?"
Posted by adminlizzieborden on Jan-8th-02 at 9:28 PM

By kashesan on Monday, 12/10/2001 - 10:07 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Reading David Kent. Just when I think I can't be shaken in my convictions, a little seed of doubt is placed. (But who else could have committed the murders??)And why? (Why, Lizzie, why?)
My question, probably naive, is: Why didn't she and Emma just MOVE OUT of Second Street? If things were so unhappy for her there? Andrew GAVE them a house, why not just move into it. I can't believe that Andrew would have objected to this, especially after the 'robbery' and the pigeons decapitatings and all the bad feelings implied.
Even in that day and age, two wealthy spinsters at their age moving out of Dad's house can't have been out of the question.

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/10/2001 - 08:52 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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A good question; it can be answered by reading more. They were NOT wealthy; that came after the inheritance. Do not read history backwards.

 
By kat on Monday, 12/10/2001 - 10:03 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Ray has a point. That house that was given them supplied the girls income- so if they evicted 1/2 the house and moved in, they'd be living on a pittance (1/2 the house's rent intake), PLUS Andrew would be supporting 2 households! Plus that house was old (Ferry Street) and according to sources in need of "constant repair." It would definetly be a step DOWN, when they REALLY wanted several Steps UP...
But I hadn't thought about it before..that they had a house they could move to--that was an interesting post!

 
By kashesan on Tuesday, 12/11/2001 - 10:12 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I still think that if things were degenerating to the point of the staged robbery and the pigeons incident, a move out could only have meant an improvement: however you're right Kat in that Andrew probably would have balked at supporting two households.
How different things may have turned out had they swallowed their pride, fixed up Ferry St and moved in. (They (Lizzie and Emma) had investments and stocks they could have used?) If so we would probably not have this site!

 
By kat on Tuesday, 12/11/2001 - 09:40 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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It's funny you mentioned that, about if "such-n-such" had or hadn't happened we wouldn't be here discussing a crime together...I was just thinking the other day that if Jane Gray hadn't wanted to sell her share of her Fourth Street house we may not be here discussing this today!

 
By kashesan on Wednesday, 12/12/2001 - 09:59 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Jane Gray! Thats my cats name (after the nine days queen) But mabe there is re-incarnation! (Reincarnation Instant Breakfast?)

 
By kat on Thursday, 12/13/2001 - 12:53 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Well, tell her she shoulda kept her share of the house!
Jane Baker was Oliver Gray's second wife-and Abby's stepmother, though only being 14 mos. older--and the mother of Sarah Bertha Gray, Abby's 1/2 sister(Sarah Whitehead).

 
By raystephanson on Sunday, 12/16/2001 - 07:30 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Robert Sullivan, the lawyer and judge, mentions that when Abby's Dad died, he left 25% of the house to Abby, his second wife, and their son and daughter. Abby gave her share to step-Mom (how very nice!), and the brother gave his share to his sister; again, what a nice family.

What a culture shock when Abby met the Bordens! Would Andy give anything away? Yes, that farm on Liberty Street, but AR Brown explains that.

 
By kat on Sunday, 12/16/2001 - 09:51 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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If you're referring to the Gray family, please see "Chronology of the Borden Murders from 1789-1892" at
html://www.lizzieandrewborden.com
Oliver Gray moves his family to 45 Fourth Street in 1857, consisting of wife Sarah Sawyer Gray, Priscilla, and Abby.
Abby's mother Sarah, dies in 1860 (that magic year)
c. 1863 Abby's father, Oliver, marries Jane Baker.
1864, Sarah Bertha Gray is born (1/2 sister)
Oliver Gray dies in 1878.
He leaves 1/4 share of house to each of his wife and 3 daughters.
In 1887, when Andrew buys Jane's 1/4 share he GIVES it to Abby, and now SHE owns 1/2 the house, which she RETAINS until her death. (It's in her will).
What Priscilla did with her 1/4 share, as to the Whiteheads, I'm not sure.

 
By kat on Sunday, 12/16/2001 - 09:54 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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See what happens when you click on "edit"?
The web address will not "glow!--no matter that the narrative is being edited, NOT the address...
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/17/2001 - 09:09 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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to "kat"
I'm sure your quote is accurate, but other books say Oliver Gray had a son and daughter by 2nd wife.

Grandfather's house may have been even more "down market" than where they lived. Did it have a bathtub?

 
By kat on Monday, 12/17/2001 - 09:55 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Oh. please may I have the reference? I have not seen a "complete" Gray "Tree". My chronology has been double verified, but I'd leave room for this "son" if you could show me where he is. I think the daughter is accounted for: Sarah B. Gray.

 
By raystephanson on Tuesday, 12/18/2001 - 02:18 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Its my unaided memory from the many books read over the past years. The son married, left home, and had no interest in that house, they said.
You don't disagree that Abby gave her share to her StepMom? (That's the story I remember.)

 
By kat on Wednesday, 12/19/2001 - 02:07 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Ray, will you please try the Chronologies at the web-site? There is information compiled by Caplain, Rebello, Terence & Myself.
Jane, THE STEPMOTHER (I'm underlining, forgive me, I don't know any better) doesn't WANT her share anymore. She wants to pay off the mortgage. Andrew buys the stepmother's share (1/4) "JANE". and HE gives THAT to ABBY. ABBY keeps Her (now) 1/2 of that house until her death, Allowing her 1/2 sister to reside there. Her 1/2 sister has 1/4, so BetweeN them they own 3/4. PRISCILLA owns the other 1/4, and I don't know what Priscilla did with that 1/4. I ASSUMED she LET her little 1/2 sister live in the house as well, no rent.
It's possible Jane, the stepmother continued to reside in the house with the Whiteheads. The property that was Abby's (1/2 that house at Fourth street) was ASSIGNED to Abby's "heirs" by the Borden girls, though not technically "inherited'. It was probably a way Emma & Lizzie had to cut the remaining Grays & Whiteheads out of their lives.

 
By raystephanson on Wednesday, 12/19/2001 - 02:17 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I'm sorry if I remembered from a book, not from a more recently compiled list. I could be wrong.
But it this fact material to the solution?
Giving the Whiteheads the property for "$1 and goodwill" can be considered a way to make amends, or forestall any legal action.

 
By kat on Wednesday, 12/19/2001 - 10:20 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I think you're right that it forestalled legal actions, but as to "ammends" I can't know.
The division of that property doesn't solve the case, but it is IMportant that it may have been the SPARK that ignited murder...

 
By raystephanson on Thursday, 12/20/2001 - 02:42 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Perhaps Lizzie and Emma were really kind-hearted enough to help out relatives by marriage? They also gave them all Abby's personal property (clothes).

Its also good public relations to show no ill will towards your StepMom's relatives? Could you all have misjudged Miss Lizzie?

 
By kat on Thursday, 12/20/2001 - 10:45 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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We're not Judging or misjudging Lizzie--we're trying to figure out what REALLY happened...so we "suppose" & ask questions of her and each other to get a combined view of her with the benefit of all our life experiences.
I think Emma & Lizzie wanted to be "divorced" from any Hirams , Whiteheads, Fishs, Grays--they were beneath them So they "moved on up" to the Hill, dispersing anything that belonged to ABBY to her family. I think this is significant in a couple of ways:
They RID themselves of ABBY'S memory (even giving away her wedding photo)...
They avoid a legal wrangle over Abby's property by GIVING IT to her "heirs." (This makes them "look good".)
And then they start afresh up in the Olympian Heights to which they aspire, even if they didn't do murder to get it....

 
By raystephanson on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 03:21 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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It may not be entirely voluntary. Maybe Abby's relatives had a legal claim to her property? What could Lizzie or Emma do with old clothes for a 4'11" 210-lb woman? What about their style?

 
By kat on Friday, 12/21/2001 - 09:02 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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5'4", 200 lbs.(autopsy-see website)
But what could Abby's family do with them either?

 
By raystephanson on Sunday, 12/23/2001 - 07:22 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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My gues of 4'11" because she was "short", smaller than Lizzie.

 
By kat on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 01:41 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I got the impression, though no one measured her, that Lizzie & Abby were pretty equal in height.

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 01:26 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Previous posting gave Lizzie 5'3" or 4" height, about 135 pounds. "Short" is a relative term, not to mention a loss of bone mass for aged Abby.

Who here has seen shrinking for those over 60?

 
By kat on Monday, 12/24/2001 - 10:26 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Yea, I thought of Abby shrinking..but that would mean she was ORiginally taller than 5'4". I'd say they were similar in height, but not heft.

BTW: RAY: May have found that "missing son" of Jane Gray. Pg.23 Rebello--Jane had been married previously to Obed Eldredge and had a son and a daughter. The husband was lost at sea in 1857, and the son, Henry H. Eldredge died "at the age of 32 of consumption on April 16, 1882, in South Dartmouth, Mass." There is no information on the daughter, Lucy J. (Eldredge) Cahoon.
--however, no son born to Jane & Oliver Gray, second marriage.
--I think you "almost remembered" that PRETTY WELL!

 
By raystephanson on Wednesday, 12/26/2001 - 02:24 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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As I remember it, it was from the R Sullivan book; he talked to Abby Borden Whitehead Potter, Abby's niece. (Hope I didn't get those last names mixed.)