The Lizzie Borden Society archive

Fall River and its Environs

 

Forum URL:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/index.php
Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Fall River and Its Environs
Topic Name: Truly a wonderful site

1. "Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Harry on Jan-15th-02 at 4:16 PM

I found this really great site for a map of 1877 Fall River.  It is a hand drawn map of the city which you can zoom in and out on buildings and streets.  Quite an experience!  I found Second St, what I think is the house, the barn, the orchard on Third St., the whole ball of wax. Well worth your time to visit.  Enjoy.




(Message last edited Jan-15th-02  4:21 PM.)


2. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-15th-02 at 4:29 PM
In response to Message #1.

Wow, far out! Thanks, Harry


3. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Harry on Jan-15th-02 at 4:58 PM
In response to Message #2.

Dave,  I have located the house and downloaded the a picture of
the area but this board only allows for a 75k post.  The picture
is larger than that. I will be glad to e-mail it to anyone who
wants it.  I put 3 red x's in the front of the house.

The Crowe yard sheds are clear as well as the Kelly, Buffington
and Chagnon houses. 


4. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Kat on Jan-16th-02 at 5:18 AM
In response to Message #3.

WHEW!
I kept ending up on Spring street, no matter what I did...maybe I was a nosey neighbor in a past life, and lived there...

Do I have the right co-ordinates, Harry?
-Third Street, behind.
-Rodman St., to the right.
-In front, Spring Street dumping into Second Street, and there's a BIG church there (at about the 3 o'clock position?)
-Borden Street boundry to the left?
-An orchard behind?
-Buffinton house looks smaller than Kelly house?


5. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Harry on Jan-16th-02 at 7:15 AM
In response to Message #4.

Kat, I'm attaching a blow-up of that area.  I put 3 red x's in front
of what I think is the Borden house.  I also have a red question mark
beside another house.  You are right, the Buffinton house looks awful small but the house I have marked seems to have everything we know about the area. 

Also, the house is directly opposite Spring street on the map which is not true.  It was more to the left in reality.  Of course the map may be off in a lot of areas as it wasn't intended to be so exact.


6. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-16th-02 at 2:36 PM
In response to Message #5.

The house with the 3 x's seems to have the pear orchard that was behind the Borden house, but the one with the "?" has the ground floor windows roughly correct on the side of the house while the 3 x's house does not. Errgh, somebody kill this suspense!!


7. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Kat on Jan-16th-02 at 7:26 PM
In response to Message #6.

Yea, that's it.
I can even see Morse come to visit that year-(Time lapse photography...)
Do you suppose that Catholic Church rang bells at all hours for Mass & stuff?  I didn't know it was so close.  That would have added to the street racket, and they may even have chimed the hour!
It also would have added to the influx of Italians, Portugese and Irish on a Sunday to the "lofty Lizzie's" neighborhood!


8. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Harry on Jan-16th-02 at 8:04 PM
In response to Message #1.

All, I've come to the conclusion that the house with the red question mark is the more likely one.  It fits the sizes of the Buffinton and Kelly houses. It is also not opposite Spring St. 

For those having problems getting to the map this is an easy way if the URL I posted does not work for you.

Go to:  http://memory.loc.gov/

Click Search

Type in: Fall River, Mass

Press enter and voila you should be there.  There are also some pictures of Fall River as well.


9. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Kat on Jan-16th-02 at 11:35 PM
In response to Message #8.

But where's the BAHN?


10. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Kat on Jan-19th-02 at 3:43 AM
In response to Message #9.

Harry, do you have the LBQ, Oct,. 1998?  On the cover is a little map of Second Street, "Computer Generated By Bertolet Archives" which shows the residence VERY close to Spring Street--proportionately, like the other one---seems only about 2, possibly 3 lots to the left of where Spring dumps into Second...
What do you think?


11. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Harry on Jan-19th-02 at 11:08 AM
In response to Message #10.

Sorry Kat, I don't have that issue. Only have the last 5 issues.


12. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Doug on Jan-19th-02 at 6:27 PM
In response to Message #11.

This 1877 hand drawn map is fascinating. It provides a most helpful perspective of what the Second Street neighborhood looked like in the late 1800s, at the time the Borden family resided there. I'm sure the Borden house is the one Harry marked with a "?." The expanded version of the map depicts a number of sites which later were connected to the Borden case.

The large church on Spring St., around the corner from Second Street, is St. Mary's. When I visited Second Street in 1975 (my only visit thus far) I was struck by how much the church building and steeple dominated the neighborhood. This is not obvious from written descriptions of the area which simply mention that the church was there.

In regard to Andrew Borden's choice to live in this neighborhood for twenty or so years, in close proximity to people of differing ethnic and religious backgrounds, is it possible that another person's nationality or belief just did not matter to him? Or at least was secondary to Andrew's desire to oversee his business interests?  As I learn more about this case I wonder how much of the "real" Andrew (and Abby) are portrayed in Borden literature, and how much is only caricature.


13. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Stefani on Jan-19th-02 at 8:01 PM
In response to Message #12.

I'm with you Doug. I too feel that the misery deserved-to-die depiction of Andrew is a myth. Or at least a creation of Lizzie and Emma in order to give her an excuse in case she was found guilty. And the same depiction could also serve as a way to indicate he had many enemies and therefore many other people might have wanted him dead.

The image we have of Andrew has also been perpetuated by those who feel that Lizzie is guilty but that somehow justified in her actions, or at least not as bad as the gruesome murders would indicate. Same goes for Abby.

It is a complicated issue and, in my opinion, we must strive to unravel the web of false statements and innuendo and try to discern some reality.


14. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by Kat on Jan-20th-02 at 1:30 AM
In response to Message #13.

I have 2 questions-
How much noise does that church make on a Thursday-weekday?  Enough to cover the sound of a falling body at 9 a.m. or 9:30 ?  Some churches "Chime" the time...

AND Stef, can you superficially "analyze" the handwriting characteristics of this Burial Instuction?


15. "Re: Truly a wonderful site"
Posted by augusta on Jan-20th-02 at 5:30 PM
In response to Message #14.

In Bridget's testimony she only mentions hearing the City Hall clock strike eleven.  It would be interesting to know if the church chimed on the hour also.  A note to the church could clear that up.


16. "Victorian America"
Posted by Harry on Apr-9th-02 at 12:44 AM
In response to Message #1.

On January 15th I posted a "zoom" map of Fall River 1877. I have just located the mother lode of those type of maps, over 1500 of them. The site is at: http://www.oldhouseweb.net/stories/Detailed/964.shtml

Maybe your hometown is included. Where I was raised was, Yonkers, NY.

(Message last edited Apr-9th-02  12:45 AM.)


17. "Re: Victorian America"
Posted by Doug on Apr-28th-02 at 6:52 PM
In response to Message #16.

A great site, Harry. These hand drawn maps are fantastic! I found my hometown in Connecticut and the streets where I lived growing up and presently. "Growing up" was an orchard (apples, I think, not pears) in the 1880s. "Presently" was a vacant lot then, though other houses still standing on the street are depicted.


18. "Re: Victorian America"
Posted by harry on Apr-29th-02 at 9:32 AM
In response to Message #17.

Thanks Doug.  Like you I was able to identify the streets and overall area of where I grew up. It was also interesting to explore the city as a whole.

I wonder how they got these "birds eye" view drawings. They seem to be fairly accurate. No planes back then.  It's probably just great theorizing as to how they would look from above. Balloons maybe?


19. "Re: Victorian America"
Posted by william on Apr-29th-02 at 2:08 PM
In response to Message #18.

Harry:

A BRIEF HISTORY OF PANORAMIC MAPPING

A popular cartographic form used to depict U.S. and Canadian cities and towns during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries was the panoramic map.  Know also as birds-eye views, perspective maps, panoramas, and aeroviews, panoramic maps are non-photographic representations of cities, portrayed as if viewed from above at an oblique angle.  Although not generally drawn to scale, they show street patterns, individual buildings, and major landscape features in perspective.

Preparation of panoramic maps involved a vast amount of painstakingly detailed labor.  For each project a frame or projection was developed showing in perspective the pattern of the streets.  The artist then walked in the street, sketching buildings, trees and other features to present a complete and accurate landscape as though seen from
an elevation of 2,000 to 3,000 feet.  These data were entered on the frame in his workroom.

Hope this was helpful.
Bill


20. "Re: Victorian America"
Posted by Doug on Apr-29th-02 at 7:52 PM
In response to Message #19.

A helpful explanation, Bill, of how the panoramic maps were created. I think "...a vast amount of painstakingly detailed labor" is an understatement! The buildings even show chimneys and the relative size and shape of windows and doors. I wonder if the artists/draftsmen spent entire careers traveling to various cities and towns making their notes and drawings?


21. "Re: Victorian America"
Posted by rays on Apr-30th-02 at 12:25 PM
In response to Message #20.

With the invention and use of balloons for observation, together with photography, the 'panoramic' industry was created around the time of the Civil War (or The War between the States). There was money in these views then. It seems to have died out in the 1950s, altho I remember a photo of my city then.

The drawings are a means to create a copyrighted version that is adjusted to show what is important for sales. Anyone can take a picture, but the enhancement is another thing.

Was panoramic pictures another victim of television?


22. "Re: Victorian America"
Posted by rays on Apr-30th-02 at 12:27 PM
In response to Message #20.

An experienced draftsman could provide an estimate of the costs in man-hours. Working 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week for how many weeks (assuming only a single artist, and not a parallel effort).


23. "Re: Victorian America"
Posted by bobcook848 on Apr-30th-02 at 10:46 PM
In response to Message #16.

Harry ole chap you've struck it again...that "oldhouse" website is awesome...have you located 92 Second Street yet?

I was playing around with the zoom and moving the navigator thingy and BAM! (as Emeril would say)...I found it...just to the right of the center line (vertical line) about halfway vertically and horizonally...just to the right at the cross-section line.

It's a corker I tell you Harry...a corker.

If you look close enough I think you can see Maggie cleaning the windows.

BC


24. "Re: Victorian America"
Posted by harry on Apr-30th-02 at 11:32 PM
In response to Message #23.

Yes Bob. We explored Fall River back a few posts. I found French street and the Oak Grove cemetary along with Ferry and Rock streets.

I think these maps are absolutely amazing. Gives you the big picture in more ways than one.  It is interesting to see the whole neighborhood and how Lizzie and the family would have to go to get downtown.

Lizzie would have been 17 when the map was drawn so it's very much a picture of the town she grew up in.


25. "Re: Victorian America"
Posted by Kat on May-1st-02 at 1:17 AM
In response to Message #24.

Well we may not see Maggie cleaning the windows, but we Would see Lizzie leaving school forever. Morse coming on a "visit", and Rev. Buck's wife dying....


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