The Lizzie Borden Society archive

Fall River and its Environs

 

Forum URL:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/index.php
Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Fall River and Its Environs
Topic Name: Which way to Lizzie's house?

1. "Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Harry on Jan-11th-02 at 1:04 AM

(Message last edited Jan-11th-02  1:05 AM.)

This page is about the approval of the street signs guiding vistors to the Borden house in Fall River.

http://www.standardtimes.com/daily/08-97/08-13-97/a01lo006.htm


2. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by adminlizzieborden on Jan-11th-02 at 10:09 AM
In response to Message #1.

You know Salem Massachusetts has a witch on a broomstick as its town icon. Even the high school has this witch as its logo/mascot. Witches and hatchets? Massachusettes is one funky commonwealth!


3. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by joe on Jan-11th-02 at 11:25 AM
In response to Message #2.

Anybody out there who can tell me what to see for sure when I visit Fall River this summer?  I really must take a pic of those hatchets pointing to Lizzie's house.  The museum?  What else?  We'll only have part of a day to visit, I'm afraid.


4. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-11th-02 at 4:56 PM
In response to Message #3.

Harry, thanks for bringing my attention to that article. I found it most interesting. I've given it quite some thought here, trying to come up with what the right, sound and sane answer to this would be. Ron Evans is absolutely right. This is yet another case of political correctness gone overboard--luckily sanity won out. I am as much concerned about violence, violent influences and the "wrong-ness" of being in love with murderers, but this was something else. Its just a sign with a hatchet pointing in the direction of the Borden house, correct? Well then that in itself does not promote murder. If it did, u may as well ban lurid Lizzie book covers--and dont stop there, ban organizations like "The Friends of Lizzie", since those "evil people" must be in love with Lizzie, right? or lets ban anything that can be construed or mis-construed as glorifying Lizzie as a murderess. Pretty soon, we would no longer be allowed to read about anything that happened on the morning of August 4, it would all be censored! LMAO. But hey, there'd still be a lot to talk about Lizzie that has nothing to do with the actual murders themselves, right? LOL

Hey Joe, the three must-sees are the Borden house of course, Maplecroft, and the FRHS museum. If u plan to see Maplecroft, make a reservation first--and good luck


5. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by joe on Jan-11th-02 at 9:15 PM
In response to Message #4.

Thanks, Dave!  My wife just got started reading the Lizzie books, so she's anxious to go to Fall River, too.


6. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Harry on Jan-11th-02 at 9:38 PM
In response to Message #1.

That article regarding the signs is dated 8-13-97. I assume that they are still there.  Not having been to Fall River I could not say, IMO, whether they were suitable or tasteful.  Unfortunately, the article does not show a picture of them.  Anybody seen them?

It does bring up the problem that the city of Fall River has to face, probably at least every August, as to how to handle our Lizzie.

I think the lines by a Mr. Suneson in the article says practically all:

"Lizzie Borden is Fall River. It is history. There is nothing you are going to do about it. Put up the signs. It is a damn good idea for tourism."

It, to me, would only be a matter of tastefulness.


7. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-12th-02 at 12:08 AM
In response to Message #6.

Joe, by the way, I think in the wintertime tours at the Lizzie Borden B&B museum (Borden house) are only by appointment. I think the number is (508) 675-7333.

Have a blast!


8. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-12th-02 at 12:16 AM
In response to Message #7.

Dave:  We sound like B&Bpimps, both of us pushing the phone # on Joe within a couple hours.  Really, Joe, we Do Not get a cut...


9. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-12th-02 at 12:23 AM
In response to Message #8.

LOL!!!!!!!!! Holy Shnykies, I do sound just like a commercial there dont I Kat-Krazy?

I hope Martha (B&B owner) will call MY number and give ME a cut for my little advertisement. Keep hopin', Dave LMAO!


10. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-12th-02 at 2:50 AM
In response to Message #9.

Hey Dave:
We shoulda told him the number would be written on a phone booth wall on Lexington Ave., NYC, by 5 a.m., on Jan.15th!  Then we could cruise by in our caddy & check him out!

...just getting moonlight madness-nothing to worry about....I'm a moon-child, like Lizzie....


11. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Joe on Jan-12th-02 at 9:48 AM
In response to Message #10.

NYC?  Not a chance you'll find us there!  We went there once and I ended up driving the wrong way on a on-way. On a Sunday morning, thank goodness.   Got chased by a cop who sympathized with our touristy mouth-open, dim-witted, midwest "deer-in-the-headlights" gaze.  Had the kids with or it might have been the jailhouse overnight.


12. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by augusta on Jan-12th-02 at 9:04 PM
In response to Message #11.

I've been to Fall River two times.  Once in 1989 - when the murder house was not open to the public - and again in 1995.  The Fall River Historical Society is a must-see.  The tour takes an hour or two and they save the Lizzie room for last.  In '89 I arrived fifteen minutes before closing and Florence Brigham, the curator then, let me in just to see the Lizzie room, bless her heart - and let me stay as long as I wanted and gave me such a talk!  The museum is hard to find.  It's on a residential street ("Rock Street") and you better have a street map of Fall River before you try going.  We got so lost especially our first time there.  We were running out of time, too, which didn't help any.  We finally stopped and asked this guy standing on the corner where the museum was.  He had the strongest Boston accent!  I just nodded my head and as we drove away I asked my husband, "You got all that, right?"  He said, "I thought you did!" and we drove in circles, passing the guy who gave us directions twice (he looked at us like we were nuts as we tried to act like we didn't see him).  They have a little gift shop in the museum and you'll probably see Michael Martins there (if you've seen any of the Lizzie documentaries in the past 10 years he's on them as the curator). 

The Oak Grove Cemetery is easy to find, especially with a map. That has the Borden plot plus a lot of the characters from the story are buried there too.  You can see the Borden plot on "http://www.findagrave.com" ;.  They used to give maps out at the Fall River Historical Museum that showed you where the cemetery and Maplecroft are.  The Welcome Center I think did too. 

The B & B gives a good half-hour tour.  If you spend the night, you can go in the cellar!  The guide we had was wonderful.  Next to it is the Leary Press, where I was able to purchase a reprint of Porter's "Fall River Tragedy" for $35. 

I've only visited the outside of Maplecroft.  Let us know everything!!
Next time I go I'm gonna go there.

There is the Fall River Maritime Museum, which is very good.  In there they have the real model of the Titanic that was used in the movie "Titanic" with Barbara Stanwyk and Clifton Webb.

There is Battleship Cove, where you can tour the battleships, one I think is the Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.  I think here is a big park, unless I'm thinking of the welcome center, which has a NICE carousel.  I also visited a little train museum in the area that was in a train car or two.  (I found a t-shirt saying "Axe me Where I've Been" with Lizzie on it there.)

We stayed across the river in Somerset.  There used to be a Howard Johnson's there, but I think it got renamed to something else - one of the major chains - by my second trip.  We had a very good seafood dinner at "Roger's Bar", which as I remember it was on the main road between our hotel and the bridge.

If you're a member of AAA, you probably know about the free tour guides they give out with two or three states in each book.  Those are so helpful in hotel arrangements and in attraction listings (the hours and prices).  The Internet could probably give you all the information you need just by surfing Fall River and Somerset.  Seems to me we had a tough time finding a place to eat in Fall River.  We had lunch in a dingy section of town - some sub sandwich shop, which was okay, but we didn't have our pick of ten different fast food places.  I don't think I could find any listings for any motels in Fall River either. 

Hey, I remember both times we were there it was REAL hot.  I think that town does get real hot even if the temperature isn't all that high.  I'd forgotten about that. 

Hope you found some of this helpful.  Have a wonderful time!!


13. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-13th-02 at 3:12 PM
In response to Message #12.

I wonder if the summers in Mass. are generally very hot.

Did u have to cool yourself off in the dark, brackish waters of the Taunton River? j/k


14. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by augusta on Jan-13th-02 at 8:59 PM
In response to Message #13.

I don't know if their summers run hot, Dave.  That'd be interesting to find out. There are some places that just turn into an oven in the summer.  I know a couple places that are in bay areas that are like that.  For some reason the sun just beats on them and makes it very uncomfortable.  I don't know if this was coincidence or not, but both times I was there in Fall River it was like that. It'd be interesting to hear from some posters who live in the area on this.


15. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Harry on Mar-14th-02 at 3:10 PM
In response to Message #6.

I found this picture of Mrs. Martha McGinn holding one of the Lizzie Borden B&B direction signs. Taken in 1997


16. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-14th-02 at 3:21 PM
In response to Message #15.

Harry:  thanks a million for that picture of Mrs. McGinn...I know what she looks like.  My daughter and I will guests at the B & B next Friday (March 22nd) evening...both she and I are wicked fans of Lizzie Borden and we neither one can wait until next Friday.  Thanks again for the website...BC


17. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Harry on Mar-14th-02 at 3:44 PM
In response to Message #16.

Bob, you are more than welcome.  I hope you have a great time at the house and for heavens's sake find the hatchet, will you! 110 years is enough for a hatchet to be missing.

To all , I just found this article dated 8-4-1986 about the opening of the B&B. Some very nice pictures. Enjoy.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/08-96/08-04-96/e01li164.htm


18. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Kat on Mar-14th-02 at 8:22 PM
In response to Message #15.

DoDoDoDo--DoDoDoDo
Creepy Music Time
THOSE aren't Ms. McGinn's HANDS holding that sign!!!!

BTW:  Does anybody know for sure that the autopsies were held in the Sitting Room, NOT the dining room?  *Word Search* call?

(Message last edited Mar-14th-02  8:39 PM.)


19. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-14th-02 at 9:51 PM
In response to Message #18.

I am not 100% positive but all the readings I have done in these past four weeks have all read the same, that the autopies were performed in the dining room.  If that is true then the bodies would have been laid out on the, gulp, dining room table.  Uh, two for the uh, non-smoking section please.  I have yet to read any publication citing the sitting room as the post-morteum theatre.  I also read that the bodies were placed in the caskets or coffins, and "laid out" for viewing in the dining room.  Andrew as placed on his left side so that the left side of his face was hidden by the pillow.  This position made him appear less hideous.  Abby was placed in the supine (back down) position as her wounds were all posterior and did not pose a viewing problem.  By all accounts Undertaker James C. Renwick* (who worked for Undertaker James E. Winward) did an outstanding job of preparing the bodies for burial. (*Reference source: Paul Dennis Hoffman, Yesterday in Old Fall River - A Lizzie Borden Companion, page 375-6)

(Message last edited Mar-14th-02  9:52 PM.)


20. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Kat on Mar-14th-02 at 10:53 PM
In response to Message #19.

  Thanks for the details.
I guess I wanted a *word search* of Primary documents, the Inquest, Prelim. , etc.  The photo shows Andrew naked in the sitting room.
I do remember AUTHOR's saying Dining room, and the movie, but I thought I remembered Lizzie being asked if she passed through the Sitting Room Thursday night where the bodies lay, when she and Alice went to the cellar.  Also, it's interesting to note that the undertakers didn't even begin to lay out the bodies for viewing until Friday evening, with the funeral scheduled for Saturday, I thought they were cutting it fine...
I guess I'll look this stuff up.  My *word searcher*, as to Primary documents... is on hiatus.


21. "Re: Which way to Lizzie's house?"
Posted by Harry on Mar-15th-02 at 12:45 AM
In response to Message #20.

Dr Dolan's testimony at the trial (page 871) indicates Andrew's stomach was removed in the sitting room:

Q.  What did you do then, Doctor?
A.  I then opened the body of Mr. Borden.
Q.  Mr. Borden?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  While lying on the sofa?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  What did you do with the body first?
A.  Undressed it and laid it on the undertaker's board.
Q.  In the same room?
A.  Yes, sir.

Later on page 872:

Q.  Did you do anything else to the body of Mr. Borden at that time?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  Did you make any further examination of the wounds at that time?
A.  No, sir
Q.  Did you do anything to the body of Mrs. Borden?
A.  Yes, sir, we went through the same with hers.

Of course, the real autopsy was performed at the cemetery on the 11th. Dr. Dolan described the autopsy at the house as "partial".


22. "Which room Autopsy?"
Posted by Kat on Mar-15th-02 at 1:13 AM
In response to Message #21.

Yea!
I've spent all this time since my last post, looking in the Prelim.

pg. 430- George Seaver, who arrived at the house with Hilliard about 5-5:50:

Q) Where was Mr. Borden's body at that time?
A) It laid up on a table or something in the sitting room.

I always wondered if THE AUTHORS all followed each other with the Dining Room story...We still need more info.

WE need to check:

Fleet in the Trial, and maybe Alice?

(already checked Dolan in the Prelim., and Seaver & Hilliard, Draper & Alice Russell, and Desmond)

Winwood, the undertaker, page 388:

Q) Did you see him (Dolan) up in the house there, while you were engaged in it?  (preparing the bodies)
A:)The only time I saw him I went in with him on Friday night
Q) Went in with him where?
A) Into the room where the bodies were
Q) Were they then in their caskets?
A) No.  They were on boards ; they were not prepared then.

(Message last edited Mar-15th-02  1:45 AM.)


23. "Re: Which room Autopsy?"
Posted by Harry on Mar-15th-02 at 2:04 AM
In response to Message #22.

I checked Alice at the trial.  This is on the trip to the cellar (page 403):

Q.  Through what rooms did you pass in going down stairs?
A.  Well, I am not positive; I can't remember our going. I can't remember after we started.
Q.  You certainly went down the front stairs?
A.  Well, I don't know whether we did or not.
Q.  What is that?
A.  I am not sure now whether we did or not. We could have gone down the back stairs.
Q.  You could go either way?
A.  Yes, sir.

I did a cursory check of Fleet. No mention of where the bodies were. Will check further tomorrow.

We should take up this discussion in the "Lizzie Borden" thread. It's a little off base in the Fall River thread.

(Message last edited Mar-15th-02  2:07 AM.)


24. "Re: Which room Autopsy?"
Posted by Kat on Mar-15th-02 at 3:43 AM
In response to Message #23.

See new THREAD:
"Found The Bodies"
under Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic


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Page updated 7 October, 2003