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Lizzie Andrew Borden

 

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Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: Abby's killer

1. "Abby's killer"
Posted by joe on Mar-8th-02 at 1:49 PM

If it was Lizzie, wouldn't it be difficult to stand over Abby and deliver the blows?  In the prelim Cross-Exam of Dr.Dolan by Adams, the questions (p. 177) were:

Q. Taking into account the average length of the handle of the hatchet, and the average length of the human arm, whereabouts over the prone body of Mrs. Borden, would the assailant have had to stand, in your opinion?
A. I should judge about over the hips.
Q. Then the assailant would have been obliged to be, would he not, astride the hips?
A. Yes sir.
Q. With one foot between the body and the bureau, and the other foot between the body and the frame
of the bed?
A. Yes sir.

So, would it be difficult for a woman to stand that way over Abby's hips?  Tight skirts, petticoats, corsets and whatever.  Not to mention, Abby's backside was kinda big. 


2. "Re: Abby's killer"
Posted by augusta on Mar-8th-02 at 7:35 PM
In response to Message #1.

I don't think it would be any more difficult for a woman to stand like that than a man.  Am I missing something?  Why would there be a difference?  Could the murderer have actually sat on Abby while hacking away?  That sounds like it'd be easy.  Too bad there were no webcams in those days!


3. "Re: Abby's killer"
Posted by Kat on Mar-9th-02 at 12:30 AM
In response to Message #2.

That's weird--I HAVE pictured (say Lizzie) actuallt SittinG astride Abby to hack away--saves back strain.  I thought I was the only one to picture THAT.
They wore pretty full skirts duing that time period, at home at least, I balieve.
This is where Ray always asks:
If a man, then blood would spurt PAST (or between) his trouser legs, to the areas BEHIND,  but if a woman, her skirt would keep blood from spattering PAst her.....


4. "Re: Abby's killer"
Posted by joe on Mar-9th-02 at 11:49 AM
In response to Message #3.

I think a woman of today's era would not have a problem.  But I was just wondering if skirts, albeit full, and whatever else was worn as unders might have prevented a 1890 lady from doing that.  Color me wrong.


5. "Re: Abby's killer"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-9th-02 at 7:07 PM
In response to Message #4.

If one were to consider the theory of Arnold R. Brown, it would have been the expert hatchet handler of William Borden.  Who, according to "eye-witnesses" of the period, could fell "a horse with one blow of that hatchet of his.  In almost the same swing he would put the blade through the horse's skull with almost no blood except what drained out." (pg. 298)  If in fact William were the killer he could have delivered the fatal blow on the first swing and all others would likely not send any blood spattering on his person.  Even if he had blood spatter on this trouser legs and shoes he would be long gone by the time Lizzie discovered that "someone has killed Father".  Try as I might I can help but give Brown's theory some serious thought. 


6. "Re: Abby's killer"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-9th-02 at 7:08 PM
In response to Message #4.

If one were to consider the theory of Arnold R. Brown, it would have been the expert hatchet handler of William Borden.  Who, according to "eye-witnesses" of the period, could fell "a horse with one blow of that hatchet of his.  In almost the same swing he would put the blade through the horse's skull with almost no blood except what drained out." (pg. 298)  If in fact William were the killer he could have delivered the fatal blow on the first swing and all others would likely not send any blood spattering on his person.  Even if he had blood spatter on this trouser legs and shoes he would be long gone by the time Lizzie discovered that "someone has killed Father".  Try as I might I can not help but give Brown's theory some serious thought. 


7. "Re: Abby's killer"
Posted by Kat on Mar-9th-02 at 9:16 PM
In response to Message #6.

I DO have to say, I haven't read Brown since he was first published...so I'm not commenting on any *facts* he may propose.
BUT, if Billy could fell an ox with one blow, why the OvERKILL?  Why 19 blows to Abby and 10 to Andrew?  This shows a person totally, temporarily out of control to substain this kind of anger-madness .  This points toward someone with a build-up of anger and resentment over time, who also was lucky but had some daring and planning.  Also, like in the O.J. case, I don't rule out the use of drugs or stimulants, which could turn even a normally placid individual crazy/homicidal if imbibed over a longish period.
Maybe our Dr. Bowen was Lizzie's drug dealer?  And his quick administration of morphine was to "bring her down" to more normal levels to be able to maintain....just supposing, using the characters we KNOW to exist, rather than introducing a character we're not sure of.
We also have William Davis as a slaughterman, who might do anything for Morse, depending on their relationship...

--And Joe, you're not *wrong*--but could it be possible if it was a woman, that she KNELT on Abby's lower frame as the blows rained down?  I may be accidently disregarding the length of the handle of the weapon in my scenario--a person dealing with a 14" handled hatchet may be TOO close as in my picture I drew.  Do you know the possible handle length?  Maybe the person HAD to stand farther back...

(Message last edited Mar-9th-02  9:21 PM.)


8. "Re: Abby's killer"
Posted by rays on Mar-10th-02 at 3:53 PM
In response to Message #7.

I think the photos of Abby show NO BLOODSTAINS down her back, which supports the idea of a dress to block the spatter. Where is it, then?

I think the idea of so many blow tells of a mad rage against the individual. Most murders like this say a male; not the poison associated with females of this time. It would have to be an edged instrument, or a bludgeon; any gun gives itself away. Another reason why guns are helpful for defense.

I am not obsessed (fanatic amateur or professional) with this case. I only discovered it when looking in the "True Crime" section of my library. See Rick Geary's back cover for a more recent case.


9. "Re: Abby's killer"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-10th-02 at 6:43 PM
In response to Message #8.

The issue of "overkill" is a valid point to which I have reasoned that Billy had been "operately" conditioned by his bio-mother (Phoebe Hathaway Borden) to come to despise the "woman who took his dad away from him" and subsequently the "dad who rejected him".  At the time of the murders I submit that Billy had called upon the Borden's of Second Street to "collect" his "fair share" which Andrew was to have given to him for the years of neglect.  I tend to believe that the package (white wrapper paper) in Andrew's hand on that day contained money or other financial documents intended for Billy.  I believe that Abby was aware of all these trappings but remained silent as she knew the value of her inheritence, basically she was just "minding her own business".  Sadly on that Thursday morning Billy may have missed his cue as to the pre-arranged meeting hour, between he and his bio-father, became agitated, as he was mentally unstable, followed poor Abbey unstairs and did her in.  During his frenzy he simply lost control and became excessive with the whacks, theory: the more he hit her the madder he got and he merely took out all those years of frustration on an innocent woman.  When Andrew arrived he repeated the process but with fewer blows.  One interesting notation made by Brown is that if you examine the photo of Andrew upon the "lounge" you will note that his hands are clenched into fists, hardly the posture of a man taking a "relaxing" nap.  Could be clenched in defense and further he his body is in a posture suggesting that he was actually 'sitting' when attacked not lying.  I am still working on the physical locations of Lizzie and Maggie at these times.  More on this later.


10. "Blood"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Mar-11th-02 at 10:23 AM
In response to Message #9.

If one of the early blows killed Abby (i.e. stopped her heart), then the blood flow may have been less.  And, for those of us who believe Lizzie killed Abby in a rage (noting the "overkill" aspect), the blood we don't see on Abby's back may well have soaked into Lizzie's skirt.  Lizzie was tiny, too - 5'2" or 3", wasn't it? - therefore, she didn't have far to reach.  Lovely, dramatic image of Lizzie, panting, half-collapsed on Abby's body - worth considering.  


11. "Re: Blood"
Posted by rays on Mar-11th-02 at 11:43 AM
In response to Message #10.

If Billy Borden was wearing his duster (common in those days), that may have collected the blood spatters.

A duster was a long overcoat, down to boot tops, that shielded clothes from the dust from the dirt roads of that day. The movie "Long Riders"? shows this.


12. "Re: Blood"
Posted by Harry on Mar-11th-02 at 7:56 PM
In response to Message #10.

Bob, I believe she was 5'4". Can't remember where I read it.

A major police theory is the more violent the crime the more likely the victim and the assailant knew each other. It's not always true (Jack the Ripper as an example) but I'd be willing to bet it's true a very high percentage of the time.

I think the fact is significant that Abby got more blows than Andrew. Even more so if you think Lizzie the culprit.


13. "Re: Blood"
Posted by Kat on Mar-11th-02 at 10:45 PM
In response to Message #12.

I agree with you both, Bob & Harry.
I think the key to the killings lies with the first victim, Abby.

If Andrew was the only intended victim, as Muriel Arnold says in THE HaNds Of Time, any assassin could have waylaid Andrew anywhere in the city any day.

(me-speculation...)  It could be disguised as hiwaymen, robbery, footpads...too risky to kill him only in THE HOME.  But Abby HAD To BE KILLED IN THE HOME, didn't go out much..except to visit Whiteheads and shop for meat, go to church.  Someone wanting ABBY dead would have to run her over in the street with a *team*, as robbery would be ruled out as an option...a "hit n' run"--that's the only other scenerio I can think of to do away with Abby, yet not at the house.
I suppose one could invite her out to tea and poison the sugar in the restaurant...

(Message last edited Mar-11th-02  10:54 PM.)


14. "Re: Blood"
Posted by Harry on Mar-12th-02 at 12:31 AM
In response to Message #13.

Also Kat, look at the place for Abby's murder.

It's in the guest room, the room furthest away from where Bridget was if Bridget was chatting over the fence, getting water from the barn or even in the kitchen.

It's the room closest to Lizzie's own room where she could clean herself up without even going downstairs.

It's upstairs where no one could just walk in on her from the outside.

It delays discovery since Bridget, the only other person in the house, never went to that room.

I don't think she planned it that way but the guest room opportunity must have looked like a gift too hard to refuse.


(Message last edited Mar-12th-02  12:32 AM.)


15. "Re: Blood"
Posted by Kat on Mar-12th-02 at 1:18 AM
In response to Message #14.

It COULD be planned if MORSE asked to stay in that room Wednesday night.

We know LazyLizzie would not fix up the room after guests.  ABBY had to.  And by leaving when he did, Morse set the stage.  Abby stayed to chit-chat as long as she could stand it in the sitting room after breakfast and then her housekeeperly instincts kicked in and she hurried up to clean the room after the guest.  AND LIZZIE was late down that morning.  And it was a room ANDREW probably NEVER went in!


16. "Re: Blood"
Posted by Harry on Mar-12th-02 at 1:56 AM
In response to Message #15.

Good points Kat. It could have been planned since Lizzie could assume Abby would straighten up after Morse.

Normally Emma had charge of the guest room according to her own testimony at the trial (page 1565). Here's her testimony on cross by Knowlton:

Q.  Who took care of your own room?
A.  I did.
Q.  Who took care of Miss Lizzie's room?
A.  She did.
Q.  And when there was anything to be done with the guest chamber, whose duty was it usually to take care of that?
A.  Usually I did.
Q.  You?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Did Miss Lizzie have any particular duties about the housework?
A.  She did anything that she cared to do.
Q.  She had no particular duty assigned her?
A.  No, I don't think of any.

With Emma's absence and Bridget having no duties in that part of the house, it left only Abby.

(Message last edited Mar-12th-02  1:58 AM.)


17. "Re: Blood"
Posted by Kat on Mar-12th-02 at 9:52 PM
In response to Message #16.

Thanks for looking all that stuff up, Harry.  I haven't felt like it lately.  It's a BIG help to have the back-up testimony!

So this is why Morse had to come Wednesday.
In order to stay in the guest room.  He had to leave at 8:45 a.m. Thursday, just prior to when Andrew usually left.
This left Abby in the guest room around 9 :05, AWAY from eveyone else in the house, alone, to be attacked.


18. "Mrs. Borden, in the guest room, with a hatchet"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Mar-13th-02 at 12:19 PM
In response to Message #17.

So, if I'm following, the theories we're currently looking at posit that Lizzie either took serendipitous advantage of Abby's tending to the guest room, or that Lizzie (or another assailant) KNEW that Abby would be there, simply because Uncle John had slept there the night before and Abby would therefore be designated bed-maker.  Or, if John was involved in a murderous conspiracy, the planners knew Abby would be making the bed because Morse had MADE SURE he would be staying in that room the night before - is this correct?

Wow!  By the way, do we know if Morse was only expected for one night?  And Lizzie's claim of Abby's having "company" next week (and thus closing the guest room door to keep the dust out) was never checked, was it?  I find this among the clumsiest and most suspicious of Lizzie's statements (lies?).


19. "Re: Mrs. Borden, in the guest room, with a hatchet"
Posted by Harry on Mar-13th-02 at 12:51 PM
In response to Message #18.

The weak point of a theory like this would be Uncle John's involvement. I really don't know if he intended to stay another night. I don't believe he had any fore knowledge of any plot.

The murder scene was set when Bridget left to do the outside windows. And then when Andrew left, Lizzie and Abby were the only two in the house. I don't believe Lizzie would have struck if Abby was down stairs.

She would know Abby would tidy it up and she knew when Abby was there. As I said it was the best room in the house to do away with Abby. Andrew didn't go there, Bridget didn't go there. It wasn't on the first floor and even an unexpected visitor could not stumble across the body.

I think she lucked out in that Abby was in the guest room at the opportune time.

She could anticipate Abby being there at some time, but not where Bridget and Andrew would be at that same time.


20. "Re: Mrs. Borden, in the guest room, with a hatchet"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Mar-13th-02 at 2:26 PM
In response to Message #19.

Of course, if you subscribe to Lincoln's theory that something happened that made Lizzie snap (whether or not she was in a temporal-lobe brownout!), it's just serendipity, as I've said, that Abby was in such a fortuitous place to be slaughtered.  Lizzie's tread on the stairs wouldn't have been particularly threatening, though her entering the room and closing the shutters (?) might have been a bit worrying...

I'm loath to believe that there was a conspiracy (though I think the family pulled together after the event, knowing full well what had happened). I'm not ready to look at the pieces that Watergate way, even given Lizzie's visit to her uncle, and her brief stay at the boarding house, and possible attempts to buy poison.

Which leads me to ask, while we've debated the merits of the "Abby's cat" story, isn't it possible Lizzie was playing "cat & mouse" directly with her stepmother; mildly poisoning Abby on a regular basis?  My studies of female serial poisoners show women who seem to match a lot of the personality profile we've assigned Lizzie in our theorizing - the feeling of entitlement, the resentment.  We didn't live in that house, and we'll never know how "cordial" those  conversations really were.

God, what a mystery!  Posies at the throat, eyeballs cut from their sockets!

(Message last edited Mar-13th-02  3:26 PM.)


21. "Re: Mrs. Borden, in the guest room, with a hatchet"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-13th-02 at 4:50 PM
In response to Message #20.

I find it difficult to buy the "temporal eplipsey" theory.  As an young adult (13-20) she may have had "spells" when she had "fleas" but if she were truly an epliptic she would have certainly had spells and if her condition worsened with age she might have even suffered seizures.  As Ms. Lincoln wrote, Lizzie ceased having the "spells" after the murders.  I have yet to read any author stating that she continued to experience these spells once she (and Emma) left Second Street and moved into Maplecroft.  I think she had self-induced episodes of catatonic behavior induced at times when she wasn't having it her way.


22. "Re: Mrs. Borden, in the guest room, with a hatchet"
Posted by Kat on Mar-13th-02 at 11:28 PM
In response to Message #21.

I thought about the fact that Morse stayed in that room that night for the only reason that then, the next morning Abby would be alone in there to clean.  And fall victim to an assailant.  The house seems to have been run on a bit of a time-table..so Morse could time his departure close to Andrew's but not simultaineously(sp).  Then it would be assumed, because of  the houseproud person Abby was, that she would bustle up there and start in fixing up the room as soon as she had fulfilled her manners in hovering around the sitting room with Andrew and Morse, chatting, though I could just see her itching to get up there and fix the room.  This trait of hers could probably be depended upon.  Why didn't Morse LEAVE WITH ANDREW?  15 minutes either way, waiting for him, would not make any difference...unless this were part of a plan...

Then I thought:   Someone may ask--why would Morse need to be there if all Lizzie had to do was call down to Abby from the top of the stairs after everyone had gone,...something like "Mother will you come up a moment?"  THAT would get Abby's attention, and LURE her upstairs.  This I have, as yet, no answer for, unless it was feared this unusual request would be heard by the ubiquitous and ever-listening Bridget Sullivan.
But I still do believe Abby's murder took place around 9:05, just after Andrew left, and before Bridget went out to start the windows, because Morse says Abby went into the front hall about 8:30-8:35 am and he didn't see her again...and no one saw or heard from either Lizzie or Abby until Lizzie appeared at 9:30 at the screen door.  What else could the two of them be doing for 1/2 an hour except the Dance of Death?


23. "Re: Mrs. Borden, in the guest room, with a hatchet"
Posted by Kat on Mar-13th-02 at 11:37 PM
In response to Message #18.

Bob and all:
I've transcibed, in the Privy, a newspaper account of what the DaViS' expected Morse to be doing from Wednesday to Thursday.
And it's been said that he arrived in just the clothes he "stood up in" apparently not intending to stay.
He supposedly gave a newspaper interview that said how could I have killed them wearing my light colored suit and am STILL wearing my light colored suit...does it look like I killed anybody while wearing it?  (paraphrased).
BUT I've often wondered, WHO knew for sure he came with no bag, nothing?  Abby & Andrew are dead.  Bridget  let him in, (Prelim pg2 "B" & pg.242, "M"), but she wasn't asked.  Apparently Lizzie never saw him until after the tragedy...  So then we have WHO'S word that he "arrived without even a toothbrush"?(PS:  I looked up stuff and edited-no you're NOT seeing things...)

(Message last edited Mar-13th-02  11:58 PM.)


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