The Lizzie Borden Society archive

Lizzie Andrew Borden

 

Forum URL:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/index.php
Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: Absence of Blood

1. "Absence of Blood"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-6th-02 at 2:17 PM

Historically we have all read that no could recall "seeing any blood" or "blood spatters" on the dress that Lizzie was wearing at the time she announced the death of her father.  Theories abound and are as plentiful as there are writers.  If, like me, you happened to watch a program on the Discovery Channel just last evening, Tuesday 3/5, you would have seen a Forensic Technican conducting "blood spatter" tests using 3"x3" sponge "pillows" filled with human blood being whacked with a wooden baton (similar to the murder weapon used in the case). The Tech saturated the sponge placed it on a flat surface (about the size of a brick) and with each sponge that he wailed with the wood baton the blood splatter was OUT and AWAY from him.  He have donned a white disposible paper coverall suit and protective eye and face shield and NOT A SINGLE drop of blood came back onto him.  I may very well conclude (through modern scientific/forensic methods) that it was, as is now, possible that the blood splatter from the mulitiple head wounds of Abbey and Andrew did in fact spray AWAY from the assailant and not TOWARDS the assailant.  Some food for thought.


2. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by joe on Mar-6th-02 at 4:22 PM
In response to Message #1.

But Lizzie wouldn't have known about that, I doubt.  She took a chance and lucked out (if she was the murderer).  I still think someone else murdered them (or him).


3. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-7th-02 at 7:03 AM
In response to Message #2.

Yes that is true...Lizzie would have no formal knowledge of what technology would prove in the next century.  The experiment, I felt, shed some important light on the issue of "where was the blood on her dress"?  It is interesting that modern experiments can nearly conclude what was mere speculation in 1892.  Like you I too believe that someone else committed the murders.  After reading Arnold R. Brown's 1992 publication I am leaning towards the illegitmate son of Andrew J. Borden, namely William Borden.  Brown did his research and found records verifying William Borden's life and he also discovered certain documents "missing".  Not too surprising among the missing documents is his admission records for the former Taunton State Hospital.  I am sure that one day all the "missing" documents will surface and we will learn more.  But I am not all that sure we learn something new.


4. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Harry on Mar-7th-02 at 7:40 AM
In response to Message #3.

The blood being thrown away from the assailant was put forth by Dr. Dolan in both the Preliminary Hearing and the Trial (at least in the case of Andrew). He said that there need not be much blood on the assailant if he/she had attacked from behind Andrew. But he also felt there would be some above the waist.  That blood would be mainly from the weapon being raised and lowered and the blood flying off.

There is also evidence of the blood being thrown away from the attacker in the case of Abby. There was a chair between Abby's head and the east wall (not shown in the photos). The legs of this chair were covered with blood. This was discussed in part on the thread "Alternative Weapon? Knowlton Papers" in January.  Since the assailant had straddled Abby, probably for the vast majority of the blows, he/she would have had far more blood on their person than in the case of Andrew.


5. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by joe on Mar-7th-02 at 9:38 AM
In response to Message #3.

I lean toward Brown's investigations, too.  Some of us on this forum have tried to find Billy Borden through genealogy searches.  No luck.  Others on this forum have discarded Brown's theory as pure nonsense.  If only the Freedom of Information Act really worked, then we could get his admission records for the former Taunton State Hospital.
Anyone out there know about the former Taunton State Hospital??  


6. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-7th-02 at 12:05 PM
In response to Message #5.

I vaguely recall the Taunton facility which I believe was located on what is now known as the Miles Standish Industrial Park just off 495 at exit 9.  Back in the very early 1970's I was a volunteer for a then Civil Defense Rescue Squad here in Attleboro.  We made many trips to what was then a state civil defense warehouse.  While we there waiting for clearance to take whatever supplies we needed we would wander around the site.  There were the remains of the old WW 2 prisioner of war camp also known as Miles Standish I believe.  The site is a massive area perhaps 30 to 50 acres if not more and there were in those days numerous buildings.  All of this has since been razed and developed in an equally massive industrial park.  As I saying I had never had the opportunity to view the old Taunton State but I am sure it mirrored that of the Foxboro State site which is still intact today, though the buildings have been empty for decades. I did have the opportunity to view the Foxboro site as I worked as an orderly at Sturdy Hospital after graduating from high school and one of my more important duties was chaperoning the male "mental" patients in the ambulance ride to Foxboro.  I do not know why we never took our patients to the much closer Taunton which is in Bristol County as well.  Foxboro is in Norfolk County.  I can only guess that Taunton may have been for "criminal" cases as is the case of Bridgewater State.  Equally puzzling is where did all those records end up.  There must be a microfilm available somewhere. If any forum member has input please do so.


7. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by william on Mar-7th-02 at 12:22 PM
In response to Message #5.

From the Web:

CEMETERY RESTORATION EFFORTS IN MASSACHUSETTS

         Taunton State Hospital

This facility is still in operation.  No cemeteries have been found on the grounds of the state hospital.  However, the early annual reports of the board of trustees of Taunton State do record that women patients sewed burial gowns for patients who died.  As far as we know, former patients from Taunton State were buried in pauper graves at the Mayflower Hill Cemetery (operated by the city of Taunton) and the St. Joseph Cemetery (operated by the Catholic Diocese of Fall River). The total number of former DMH clients buried there has not been assessed.

(For more see: http://dsmc.info/groups.shtml )


8. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Harry on Mar-7th-02 at 12:47 PM
In response to Message #6.

This site doesn't cover what you may be looking for but it does give a good description (with photos) of the hospital.

http://aporia.lorn.org/asylums/taunton_ma/

(Message last edited Mar-7th-02  12:50 PM.)


9. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by augusta on Mar-8th-02 at 7:51 PM
In response to Message #1.

I've read that the first blow to Andrew was fatal.  With his heart stopped, blood from further wounds would not spray or erupt as they would if he received the same wounds alive.

Interesting posts about the Taunton asylum.  Every time I ask a place where there old records are I get, "They're just shoved in the basement," or "They were destroyed in a fire." 

Back to Lizzie, no matter who did the killing, it's weird that no blood was found from the murderer walking away, carrying the bloody axe.  Maybe there was some but because of the pattern in the carpet and all the foot traffic that went thru the house so soon after, it disappeared. 


10. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Kat on Mar-9th-02 at 12:39 AM
In response to Message #9.

I think that bloody, huge handkerchief was used to clean up the person & weapon (before leaving the room?) (Prelim., Dolan, pg.90) The one that it is claimed Abby DID NOT WEAR on her head as she dusted that day, yet was found near her body.  Also there was bloody water found in the basin, and no one can say when it was first noticed...

(Message last edited Mar-9th-02  12:48 AM.)


11. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Kat on Mar-9th-02 at 1:56 AM
In response to Message #9.

About the blows to Andrew:

Prelim., Dr. Draper, pg444-447:
"The first one (wound) beginning at the left nostril was four inches in length."
(Knowlton): He does not mean the first one inflicted?"
(Mr. Adams): No.
(Draper): I described them as numbered at the autopsy.

Then:Q: Whether in your opinion that injury was necessarily fatal?
A: It was not necessarily fatal.
Q: Proceed to injury #2.
Q:...necessarily fatal?
A; No sir.
Q: The next one,,,
A: ..the third one....
Q: Was that injury necessarily fatal?
A: It was not
Q: Take the next one.
A:...#4...
Q: Was that injury necessarily fatal?
A: No sir.

Q: Take now the next one (#5)
Q: That was not necessarily fatal then?
A: No sir.
Q: What was the next one? (#6)
Q: Was that necessarily fatal?
A: No sir.
Q: The next one. (#7)
A:...superficial..not necessarily fatal.
Q: What was the next one? (#8)
Q: Necessarily fatal?
A: No sir, that was a superficial wound.  #9 extended from the front of the left opening of the ear, the left ear at it's opening, upward, through the left temple, a distance of four inches, directly upward.  It's edges were parted to the extent of two inches.  The bone under this wound was crushed into the brain.
Q: Was that necessarily fatal?
A: No sir
Q: Was it probably fatal ?
A: Yes Sir
Q: What is the next one ,if there are any others?
A: The 10th and last...
Q: Was the last one you have described probably a fatal injury, or a fatal wound?
A: I should group the wounds in the left temple together as being the cause of death.


12. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by joe on Mar-9th-02 at 11:46 AM
In response to Message #11.

So does that mean the killer was left-handed?  Lizzie's handwriting suggests she was right-handed.


13. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-9th-02 at 6:55 PM
In response to Message #12.

Many thanks to William and Harry for the insight to Taunton State, even though I live in the "next City over" (Attleboro) I had assumed that the State Hospital had closed years ago.  Both websites are useful indeed.  With regard to the whereabouts of any records I am quite sure that "patient confidentiality" will prevent most researcher from finding conclusive information regarding one William Borden.  Arnold R. Brown states that he was given information about William having been an in-patient prior to his death then within a period of time received yet another "official" letter denying that a William Borden ever exsisted.  All this leads to yet another theory that keeps those of us in forums and societies alive. 


14. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Kat on Mar-9th-02 at 9:32 PM
In response to Message #12.

In response to Joe:
If the killer stood behind the arm of the sofa and Andrews head was turned so only the most of the left side showed, that's where the blows would go, wouldn't they?  Is there something I'm missing as you read the Prelim. that points toward a left-hander?


15. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by joe on Mar-9th-02 at 10:12 PM
In response to Message #14.

Not necessarily, Kat.  I was just wondering about the left-handedness of the killer.
Q: Was the last one you have described probably a fatal injury, or a fatal wound?
A: I should group the wounds in the left temple together as being the cause of death.


16. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by joe on Mar-9th-02 at 10:14 PM
In response to Message #15.

Kat, I want to read and absorb the prelim, etc. before I make a real judgement.


17. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Kat on Mar-10th-02 at 12:12 AM
In response to Message #16.

I just wasn't sure if you were a proponent of the* Andrew standing facing* theory--then a left-hander might be more readily apparent.

That Prelim. is great.  I've read it about 3 x, mainly cause I'm putting off reading the trial.  (It smells like potporri from Stef's house, and makes my eyes water...)


18. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by rays on Mar-15th-02 at 1:24 PM
In response to Message #17.

If Andy was sitting on the sofa and facing his visitor, then a right handed killer is the correct solution. Most people are right handed.

What about the handedness of William Borden, "cider merchant"?

Just why did the old miser Andy deed him that farm on Liberty St? That seems to be a clue to his relationship. Did Andy ever do this to anyone else? Its like those Kings of England or France who gave tiles and lands to their bastards. (Read your history books.)


19. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Mar-15th-02 at 5:19 PM
In response to Message #18.

Hmm..."most people are right-handed."

This may help unlock the case!  Also, bear in mind that most people like ketchup.

And, "Gentlemen prefer blondes!"

Happy Friday! 


20. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Lorna on Mar-15th-02 at 5:53 PM
In response to Message #18.

>If Andy was sitting on the sofa and facing his visitor, then
>a right handed killer is the correct solution. Most people
>are right handed.

>
>What about the handedness of William Borden, "cider
>merchant"?

>
>Just why did the old miser Andy deed him that farm on
>Liberty St? That seems to be a clue to his relationship. Did
>Andy ever do this to anyone else? Its like those Kings of
>England or France who gave tiles and lands to their
>bastards. (Read your history books.)


21. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Lorna on Mar-15th-02 at 5:53 PM
In response to Message #18.

>If Andy was sitting on the sofa and facing his visitor, then
>a right handed killer is the correct solution. Most people
>are right handed.

>
>What about the handedness of William Borden, "cider
>merchant"?

>
>Just why did the old miser Andy deed him that farm on
>Liberty St? That seems to be a clue to his relationship. Did
>Andy ever do this to anyone else? Its like those Kings of
>England or France who gave tiles and lands to their
>bastards. (Read your history books.)


22. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Lorna on Mar-15th-02 at 5:55 PM
In response to Message #18.

to Ray
what farm did Andrew Borden deed to William Borden and when. Please tell me your reference?


23. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-17th-02 at 1:08 PM
In response to Message #22.

As I read and understand Arnold Brown, who advances the William Borden as the murderer theory, the farm on Liberty Street in East Taunton was deeded to his wife, Rebecca.  If I have missed something in the reading please let me know.  I have taken the book back to the library and don't have it in hand to re-read the text....BC


24. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by rays on Mar-26th-02 at 12:43 PM
In response to Message #23.

That is the farm on Liberty Street, Fall River. Must have been a very extensive city? However, I wonder how many other properties were given away by Andy? This may be a good clue if a unique gift.

Or was this a pay-off to Rebecca's family? For what?


25. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Kat on Mar-27th-02 at 1:02 AM
In response to Message #24.

Is it Taunton, or Fall River?

Can you access Rebello's LBP&P, pgs. 551-555? LAND TRANSACTIONS...
pg.551= 2 SWANSEA transactions
pg..552=6 SWANSEA transactions
pg.553= 3 Swansea transactions
pg. 554=2 Swansea transactions--one in 1877-April 28:
"Andrew J. Borden, William M. Almy & Theodore D. Wood, business partners, foreclosed and sold the lot of land in Swansea, Massachusetts, to WiLLIAM BORDEN for $1,930.00.  (book 82:  180)"
pg. 555=1 SWANSEA transaction, November 22, 1891:
"Andrew J. Borden sold to FRANK EDDY of Swansea, Mass., for $1.00 + approximately one acre of land AT LUTHERS CORNER in Swansea, Mass.  (Book 48:  458)."

The rest appear to be Fall River land transactions.  And then he died...


26. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-27th-02 at 12:25 PM
In response to Message #25.

According to Brown, and I must apologize as I do not have the book in my possession for quotes and reference, the farm was located at #38 Liberty Street, East Taunton.  Brown did reference his source of information but wether or not there was a farm there remains to be re-examined.  If I have a free day in the next week or two I shall trek to Taunton City Hall and peruse the Assessor's records to find the answer.

Meanwhile back at the scene, when Len Rebello and I spent that wonderful hour-plus I mentioned the "illegitimate" son of Andrew and Len said, "there was no illegitimate son, William Borden was the son of Deacon Charles Borden and his wife Phebe (Phoebe)".  Since Len did not waver his facial expressions I was lead to believe he was telling me the truth.  BC

BC


27. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Tracie on Mar-28th-02 at 10:02 AM
In response to Message #6.

Hi Folks,

This is the first time that I have responded or joined please have patience with me.  I worked at Taunton State Hospital in the late 70's and it has always been located at the end of Hodges Avenue.  Taunton State must have been quite grand back in Lizzie's day.  In the 70's it still had beautiful grounds with massive trees and the buildings well preserved.  The only records that I had access to were current patients, but I believe I read somewhere that the jail that Lizzie was held was located on Hodges Avenue, so I assume that a visit to TSH was quite possible, but not as a committed patient.

The site of Paul Dever which is now Myles Standish Industrial Park housed retarded people not insane folks.

This site is addicting!!!!

Tracie


28. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Harry on Mar-28th-02 at 10:09 AM
In response to Message #27.

Hi Tracie, welcome.
Thanks for the info. I posted a URL to a website on the hospital on this thread awhile back. Don't know if you seen it, so just in case:

http://aporia.lorn.org/asylums/taunton_ma/


29. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Lorna on Mar-28th-02 at 5:37 PM
In response to Message #23.

I personally spent several days in the Fall River Court House going over all the real estate transactions of Andrew J. Borden from 1862 to the weeks before his death. Nowhere did I find his deeding any Fall River property to William Borden.
I will be spending several days in Fall River in October at which time, I will go to Taunton and see if there is anything to his buying or deeding any property there.
As an interesting note, not at all related to this subject, the land on which the house on Second Street was built was part of the original land owned by Andrew's grandfather, RIchard Borden. It was part of his Uncle Ladwick's inheritance. Ladwick sold it to Traffton. Southard Miller built the house for Traffton. Perhaps Andrew bought it because (a.)it was close to his investments, (b)it had originally been Borden land and (c)he knew it was well built because he'd worked for Miller. As a landlord, I'm really tired of the bad press that Andrew got. Believe me, he earned every penny.


30. "Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by Harry on Mar-28th-02 at 6:13 PM
In response to Message #29.

Although I am not at all a believer in Brown's theory I checked his book and this is from page 310:

"In 1860, four years after the birth of William, Charles L. Borden fathered a child by his second Wife, Peace Borden. What happened to Phebe in the interim is not known. Charles would not have been pleased with her obvious infidelity. Since William S. Borden had been born to Phebe, Charles was declared the father, but he refused to legitimize Bill's birth. His birth is therefore not a matter of public record. Although divorce was not impossible in those days, it was considered a disgrace and never broadcast. It is likely that Andrew supported his son in some manner, although there is no evidence.

One interesting real estate transaction from this period may or may not shed light on the situation. The farm at 38 Liberty Street in East Taunton was deeded to Simon and Catherine Hathaway from 1864 to 1872. Their relationship to Phebe Hathaway is unknown and not determinable; the coincidences in names and dates once again causes pause, especially when in 1872 the same property was deeded to Lewis B. Gammons, the father of Rebecca Francis Gammons.  Two years later, Rebecca was legally married to William S. Borden."


31. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-28th-02 at 10:29 PM
In response to Message #30.

Thanks Harry I am glad you had the text on that one.  I do subcribe to some of Brown's theory, in fact earlier I indicated that I was a "beleiver" but after talking to Len Rebello last week I am giving the matter a little more reconsideration. 

Len told me, empahtically, that William Borden was NOT the "love child" of Andrew J. Borden and Phoebe Hathaway Borden.  Len stated that Billy Borden was the 'legitimate' son of Deacon Charles and Phoebe Borden. 

With that tidbit under my bonnet I shall forthwith cease my theory that Billy did-it.  Though I may return here someday.

Now, a closer look at dear ole Uncle John..bc

BC


32. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by Harry on Mar-28th-02 at 11:13 PM
In response to Message #31.

I'm about 85% convinced Lizzie is guilty. The other 15% is going to need some hard evidence. I once was a strong believer in that she had an accomplice but as I was typing the trial transcript I grew less a believer in that theory. Still its a possibility.

I am not at all convinced Bridget is totally innocent. Uncle Morse also has a few shadows that need to be resolved.

I don't think Emma had anything to do with it, except maybe after the fact and even then mainly just to keep her mouth shut.

JMHO


33. "Re: Absence of Blood"
Posted by Kat on Mar-29th-02 at 1:35 AM
In response to Message #29.

Lorna:
I agree with your a), b), & c), AND what you said about "landlords", tho I am not one.
I just can't subscribe to the Andrew stereotype.
Thanks for the post!


34. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by Kat on Mar-29th-02 at 1:45 AM
In response to Message #30.

Dear Harry,
Your quote (thanks) was from page 316, in a hardbound copy.
But I'm confused...the quote doesn't say WHO deeded the property..and when I looked in Brown's index under Liberty Street, it also doesn't specify WHO.  From where does this info originate?  Anyone who read Brown lately, know?


35. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by Lorna on Mar-29th-02 at 6:17 PM
In response to Message #30.

Phebe Hathaway Borden died May 17, 1859. At which time, she was still the wife of Charles Borden and "an exemplary member of the Second Baptist Church....universally beloved for her humble, earnest, fervent piety." She was buried from the same 9th St. residence as was her husband in 1883 and his second wife in 1894. So I guess in the years between William's birth and May of 1879, Phebe was  still his wife living in his home.


36. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by Kat on Mar-29th-02 at 11:06 PM
In response to Message #35.

Lorna, I guess you mean until "May, 1859", she was still his wife and living in his home.
Rebello, pg 374.

--also, as an aside, Rebello, pg.377:
Deacon Charles married Peace 5 months after the death of Phebe , in October,'59, which produced one son, Joseph H. Borden, born in Fall River, December 27, 1860, 15 months later.
--he re- married so soon!  So how does a widower meet and marry in so short a time unless maybe HE had Peace as an *outside interest* before Phebe died?  Maybe the shoe was on the other foot, and aspersions were cast upon Phebe, rather than on Deacon Charles...


37. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-29th-02 at 11:20 PM
In response to Message #36.

Well now that's the "horse of a different color" you've heard so much about...OZ, 1939...seriously though when you think about the "good" Deacon Charles doing his turn-around from widowerhood back to husbandhood in such short order could there in fact be some truth to the illigetimate son theory?  mmmmmmmmmmmm...i wonder now....bc

BC


38. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by Kat on Mar-30th-02 at 12:34 AM
In response to Message #37.

What?
That it was Deacon Charles' illegitimate son?
HE seems to be the one who may have been *foolin' around*...


39. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by Lorna on Mar-30th-02 at 2:50 PM
In response to Message #37.

Are you suggesting that if Deacon Charles fooled around then so did Phebe? Sauce for the gander being sauce sauce for the goose? No, I don't think so.
Deacon Charles' family had several of its immediate members, including Charles' sisters, committed from time to time. He, himself, suffered from delusions and died "hopelessly insane." William had mental problems and committed suicide. So if mental illness came to William from anyone, it was from his father, Charles, not from his suggested "father," Andrew.


40. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-30th-02 at 4:05 PM
In response to Message #39.

Yes, but who is to say that Phoebe Hathaway Borden was not in fact a little on the "off-centered" side as well.  Has anyone traced the Hathaway clan?  If the Hathaway's I know here in my town are of her decent I can assure you that, if you believe in generational mental illness, which is a valid arugement in a court of law today, Phoebe was likewise "off-centered". 

Now comes the question to whom did the person of William Borden belong? 

If one believes he is the product of Deacon Charles and Phoebe and that he acquired his "mentality" from his paw-paw then we can assume that the "mentality" is of the Borden strain which could easily suggest that whereas Deacon Charles Borden was a "cousin" (albeit of a distance) to Andrew J. Borden then can we predict that the offspring of Andrew J. could inherit the same gene?

I am not 100% sure but I believe I read in one of the many books that the Morse side of the family had some scary folks too!!

A genetic clash of Borden and Morse could have devastating results.  All this before DNA too...darn!

BC


41. "Re: Liberty St. farm deed"
Posted by rays on Apr-2nd-02 at 1:07 PM
In response to Message #36.

There is still another possibility. Could it be that a "simple-minded" person like Wm Borden could have imagined his relationship to Andrew Borden? Could he have been patronized by the Bordens as well? Then could a slight or an insult have set him off? (Yes, the unacknowledged illegitimacy still sounds very plausible to me.)

I believe AR Brown's theory because it "rings true" based on my own knowledge of politics. His description of the Mellen House Gang has its counterparts in your own local county's Courthouse Gang.
Who decides who gets the government jobs and contracts? Is it really open bidding, or is it "wired"?


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