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1. "Bridget Did It!"
Posted by joe on Jan-10th-02 at 4:56 PM

Why not?  She had motive: Abby required her to clean windows in 80 degree (or more) heat regardless that she was ill.  Could she have heard Andrew tell Abby that the windows were a disgrace and they needed to be cleaned?  Perhaps.  Maybe she snapped.
She had time:  She was alone in the house with Lizzie.  She could have dumped the hatchet in the privy, on one of her walks to town (wasn't she seen limping along with a shawl on her head?).

Lizzie was supposed to have given her money.  Hush-up money?  I wonder what she wanted to confess just before she died?

Be interesting to explore this more.

I could never be satisfied with the window-washing motive as a reason for Bridget to kill.  I think there could be other, deeper motives, though, that we're so far unaware of...like maybe the note that came (?) that day was for Bridget from a "swain" and Abby intercepted it, promising to tell Andrew and "shame" her.  That could be why Bridget never owned up to a note coming at all, to her knowledge.
Bridget WAS hot, sweaty, dirty, out-of-breath, AND admitted to changing her dress--unlike pristine Lizzie.  But we do need more motive here, and a little melodrama thrown in, like drug-abuse, that would make someone act so erractically.

Yes, I know, Kat.  I need to really get my idea cruncher going if I'm gonna place the blame on Bridget.  Right now, there is little doubt (at least in my head) that Lizzie was the culprit.  I'm trying my darndest to disprove that along with many others, I suppose.  What, if anything, has been done to research the credibility of the bastard brother, Billy?  I don't find a whole lot in the Society.  I guess that was a piece of fiction invented by the author (???)  Lemme see what I can do to find more about a non-Lizzie murderer.

Actually Muriel Arnold's book, Hands of Time is the one that really got me thinking about Bridget--and the Gross article transcribed in the Privy, about her Collaborating with Lizzie, all seemed to put Bridget in my brain.  Add what you said about her being able to leave the premises unsearched--and a good case can be made out, as at least in Cahoots with Lizzie.
Plus she was taller and that dratted Prince Albert coat may have fit her better....
I too, am looking for a non-Lizzie suspect--just to be fair.

Kat,
Any idea where I can get my hands on the book you mention: Muriel Arnold, "Hands of Time".  Fall River Hist. Soc. doesn't have it.  Nor does Amazon.

Uncle Morse hired his buddy the butcher Charles Davis to kill the old folks, and thats all u need to know about a non-Lizzie murderer LOL. j/k

Its pretty funny how far-fetched or baseless some theories are, and yet, how entertaining they are as fiction!! I just came across a supposedly non-fiction book linking Jack the Ripper to the king of black magick himself, Aleister Crowley (1875-1947). For those who arent aware, Crowley is the most prominent devil worshipper who ever lived. When he was born, his mother couldnt stand to hold him. At age 16, she stopped calling him by his proper name and took to calling him "The Beast 666" and it was a name that Crowley later adopted in adult life. Throughout his life, he was addicted to every known substance, had every known venereal disease, and had tried every known sexual act. He was a murderer, thief, swindler, spendthrift, purgerer, pederast, pedophile, orgiast, the inventor of "sex magick". On his wedding night, he had his fiancee copulate with a goat, and at the point of ejaculation he cut off the head (the animal's head!). Hmm. He established a little sex magick colony on the Italian island of Sicily, and enticed a bunch of the local villagers to join in, where every horrendous excess was indulged; pretty soon word go out, even as far as his native England!--"these horribly lewd and bestial orgies are carried out as mystic religious rites in an old farmhouse near the village of Cefalu, in Sicily" (The Sunday Express, November 26, 1922). Most of his lovers either ended up in mental asylums or committed suicide.

Dave, why are u telling us all this???? LOL!!!!! Sorry

Actually, the Whitechappel Ripper murder happened in 1888, so that would mean Crowley was only about 13 at the time. Maybe he learned to use the knife early j/k

(Message last edited Jan-11th-02  6:54 PM.)

Dave, Why ARE you telling us this?

The Hands of Time:

Joe:  I got that book through Inter-Library Loan.  They hunt it out and borrow from another library if they don't have it.  Then I took extensive notes.  If you want to BUY it, it's sold privately by her and her 2 sisters-I think address are Texas, Fla., & New England.  (a niece did the drawings?)
Anyway, the ad and address might be in the LBQ-if you don't have that, I'll look it up.
OR you can advertise for second hand at the web-site
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com

BTW: Aren't our LBQ's DUE ANY DAY???!!!!
-subscription info also at web-site, under Bibliography, "LBQ by Author.."

(Message last edited Jan-11th-02  7:37 PM.)

(Message last edited Jan-11th-02  7:20 PM.)

Well, THAT was fast!
I went to the web-site, clicked on Bibliogrophy.
Clicked Bibliographic Borden, by Lisa Zawadzki.
Scanned down till I found her review (knowing publish date of "around 2000 helped").

Jan., 2000 issue, pg. 7:

Lizzie Borden
THE HANDS OF TIME
by Muriel Arnold
published 1999 by Tri-Flag Press
Nashua, New Hampshire  03060-4662

May be purchased for $22.00 (Includes shipping & handling)
FROM:

Muriel Arnold (Author)
709 E. Oak Street
Victoria, TX  77901

Rejane Schwender
351 Wildwood Lane
Orange Park, FL  32073

Lilianne Richard
82 Snell Street
Fall River, MA  02721

--at least this is the information up to Jan. 2000.

--in her review, Lisa remarks:  "Her book can be purchased from the Author, her sisters, the Fall River Historical Society and the Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast/ Museum."
There is a link to the B&B at the web-site.(again, this info was current, Jan., 2000...

PS:  I just visited the B&B and the book is not listed, but their phone number is: #508-675-7333--they take credit cards.

Very good, Dave!  The butcher.  I hadn't thought about that, but the butcher that Uncle Morse stayed with possibly was the killer.  Or the butcher's kid.
And why did Uncle John leave Fall River 20 or so years before the murder?  Could it have been something to do with a previous murder? I remember reading someplace about another murder that the Borden murder reminded him about.  I think he might have told that to Harrington.  He may have been a serial killer like Jack the Ripper!  He MIGHT have been Jack the Ripper, but certainly not Crowley!

Bringing in the butcher and son, the Davis' ,seems too many people in on a conspiracy to me.  That secret would have had to be kept by Lizzie, Morse, Isaac Davis, William Davis, & Emma.  Too many people to have kept quiet for so long.
The Nathan murder was remarked upon by Morse to the police, mainly because of some superficial similarities and because the main suspect (the son) had just died about a few weeks prior & it was all resurrected in the news.

See:
Studies in Murder
Edmund Lester Pearson,
Garden City, N.Y., 1924
Chapter: The Twenty-Third Street Murder, pg. 123-162

Murder happened in 1870.  No trial, only an inquest.  Washington Nathan (son) suspect.  Died July 25th, 1892, age 44, in Boulogne, in "exile."

Wow, Kat, et al, I sure have a lot to read and digest!  Guess I better start by checking off what I HAVE read in the bibliographies and go from there.  Then re-read what I've read, too.

I'm sure glad that Stef developed this website and that you all are so patient with me. Looking forward to it!

We're all lookig foreward to YOU too, Joe!
I am at an advantage in that Stefani & I have always shared the expense of all Borden materials, plus she worked as an archivist at Penn State, and a librarian here, locally.  We have many obscure Xeroxed articles, and we've had 15 years to peruse the topic, only getting in deeper one year ago.
New voices, new thoughts & ideas are ALWAYS welcome--one doesn't need to know all the details (we all help each other with That) in order to be fully realized as a valuable resource on this Forum.
Nicetameetcha!--kat

Joe asks:  "Why DID Morse go West?'
Anybody know or have an opinion?

My notes say Rebello, pg. 70:
Morse went first to Minn., age 22, in 1855.
Stayed 1 year
Then to Illinois in 1856
Stayed 14 years
Then in 1869 went to Iowa (Hastings)
During the summer & winter he visited back East.

Could he have been evading the draft?
You'd think he'd go to California or Nevada after Gold or Silver...

I don't know whether Bridget did it or not, but, I do find her behaviour strange, to say the least, the day of the murders.  Lizzie says that she thinks that she heard Abby come in, I would assume this is when all the ladies are in the parlour.  I know Bridget has been up the back stairs already and in Abby and Andrew's bedroom, but, why would she go look in the guest room?

By Bridget's own testimony, she knows that Abby has a key for the back door.  I would think that she knew that "they" had taken her front door key.  So, why would she go looking in the front part of the house where Abby was not welcome?

Do you think that Bridget had a hunch as this was the last known whereabouts of Abby and that Uncle Morse or Lizzie had gotten to her?  Sorry, just checked the Trial Vol. 1, Bridget's testimony, they were in the dining room when Lizzie said that she thought that she heard Abby come in.  At any rate, they were not in the kitchen and couldn't see the back entry way, Abby could have come in and gone to HER room.  Why did Bridget go to the guest room and scared as she was, run into the room to the foot of the bed to see Abby's body?  Strange behaviour to me!  Did Bridget know more than she said, was her finding of the Abby's body rehearsed?  I was going to post this as a new topic, but, it seems to fit here.  Bridgets behaviour just gets under my skin and I can't forget this little tidbit from the crimes!

Bridget had already been sent up to the elder Borden's room to get a sheet to cover Andrew's body.  She made Mrs. Churchill go with her, or rather Churchill volunteered.  They got 2 sheets from the dressing room of Abby before the body of Abby was found.  Therefore these two knew Abby wasn't up stairs in that part of the house...that only leaves the cellar, parlor and up the FRONT part of the house.

I've been thinking about Bridget also.
She says she doesn't see Lizzie from 9- 9:30 A.M., when at that time Lizzie asks her the question through the side screen door.
But if Bridget didn't see Lizzie, then Lizzie didn't see Bridget!
So at this point NEITHER has an alibi, equally.

Then, I have always found it hard to believe that it took Bridget "10 or 15 minutes" to throw up.  It just doesn't take that long.  And during that time Andrew happens to leave?  Which she can't substantiate?  She did not see him leave?  So here is MORE time unaccounted for, with only her word for what she was doing .

The same goes for when she was (supposedly) upstairs...Whenever she doesn't know where Lizzie is, we have to remember that thusly, Lizzie also doesn't know where Bridget is.  (If Lizzie WAS in the yard and/or barn, how can she know Bridget remained upstairs?)

A little thing that bothered me was she washed the outside windows and rinsed them to a pattern, starting with the first sitting room window on the south side and working her way around the house, excluding kitchen windows.  (And rinsing in the same pattern).  BUT, when she comes inside she starts with the SECOND interior sitting room window, the one closet to the front door???  What IS with that?  That seems unnatural, and odd to me...

Seems that I recall reading in this forum that Bridget had a boyfriend at the time of the murder.  Can't seem to locate that piece of info.  Anyhow, do we know any more about the boyfriend?

I answered my own question.  I found it.  Kat posted on 2/14:
"Then, in the Privy, in the (not completed) transcription of the Trickey/McHenry news article it spuriously states, "I investigated her (Bridget) career from the time she landed in America to the time of the DEATH of her INTENDED HUSBAND a MONTH before the murder."

I wonder who that "intended husband" was, or was this just another Trickey lie?  Supposing Trickey/McHenry were close with the facts and Bridget's boyfriend did not die.  Might be grounds to explore this "boyfriend" as the murderer in cahoots with B. and who knows who else.

In Bridget's Prelim. Test. pgs. 45-47 she gives her history before she came to the Borden's:
-Landed in Newport, R.I., (1886) stayed a little while with her friends, a married man named Dennis Sullivan..2 or 3 weeks.
-Then worked at The PERRY house (hotel)=12 months Newport.
-Came to Bethlehem, PA., for 12 months..Mathew Smiley (did not know what business he was in)
-Was with Mrs. Reed in Highland Ave, F.R.(?), 15 months
-Was with Mrs. Remington, in High Street., F.R. (?), 7 months
-Then Bordens.

--Adams asks her if she ever worked for "a Mr. Saunders, or Landers" which she denies.  We don't know what this name signifies.
--He asks her if anyone walked her home Wednesday night, which she denies.
Pg. 51-52:
Q: Did you have any visitors?
A: Sometimes
Q: Did you have any men call on you?
A: No Sir.
Q: Ever since you have been at this house?
A: Not in Fall River
Q: While you have been in this house?
A: Not anybody from Fall River
Q: I did not ask you where they were from.  When did you have anybody call on you, not from Fall River?
A: About two or three months before that I guess
Q: That is the last time any man has called on you at the house?
A: Yes Sir
Q: Has any man walked home with you?
A: No Sir
Q: Has any man seen you in the back yard?
A: No Sir
Q: Have you met anybody in the back yard for the last two or three months?
A: No Sir
Q: Or sit down with anybody on the back step, or in the back yard?
A: No Sir
Q: Never in your life?
A: I have sat down with girls on the back stairs and in the kitchen.
Q: Have you ever sat out on the back side of the house, or in the yard with girls?
A: No Sir
Q: Or with anybody?
A: No Sir

--He might have KNOWN SOMETHING, in order to ask these QUESTIONS...

Yes, he may have, as has been said before, a good lawyer does not ask a question that they don't know the answer to.

And to Kat's earlier post, I have to agree with you there, there does seem to be a pattern to Bridget's window washing.

Was the "girl" from the Kelly's questioned at all?  About speaking to Bridget over the fence that day? 

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  10:15 PM.)

All I can say is that Lizzie either didn't see Bridget, was not ASKED if she saw Bridget, or did not volunteer that she had seen Bridget during the crucial times I specified.

When a not too clever minion does a repetitive job, they usually do it the same way each time.  If Bridget had varied her routine outside ONCE, then failing to follow the pattern indoors would fit.  But once a person does the task TWO TIMES the SAME WAY, chances are they will follow through and repeat the process.  More so, even, if the person had their mind on something else.  It's called "habit."

The explanation can't be that simple, to me, when it's NOT an ordinary day...it's EXTRA-ordinary.  Granted, people can't remember everything...

To me, Bridget is a viable suspect, and therefore suspicious...

(Message last edited May-24th-02  12:15 AM.)

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  10:16 PM.)

It seems to me that Adams' questions were trying to state that Bridget had no friends (or no accomplices?) in the city or nearby.

EG, she was an uninterested witness. Remember she had been working for the sheriff or police chief (?) since the murders.

I would have to re-read E Radin again to refresh my memory.
I think Radin tried to pose Bridget as a suspect just to clear Lizzie; a "straw-man". His book is a refutation of the Pearson story and legend.

Thanks, Rays!  As I had posted, my Radin book fell apart and unfortunately, had to get rid of it.  I haven't read it in eons and have forgotten what Radin's take was on the murders. 

E Radin's book needs to be republished by some university (as with Pearson's "5 Murders"), or be available on the Web. Did somebody previously post an address, like they did with E H Porter's book?

Radin was a newspaper reporter who covered "hundreds of murder trials" in his career. (New York Herald-Tribune?). "The maid did it" is his suggested answer. But the same evidence (no bloodstains, no murder weapon) that clears Lizzie clears Bridget.

So, he basically pointed a suspicious finger in Bridget's direction.  And Bridget has at least two witnesses to back her up on the window washing, so, she seems to have a stronger alibi than Lizzie.  Oh, I have to update my library!  My particular library that I go to here in San Diego has like 2 Borden books and they are both MIA!!!

Bridget was seen outside around 9:30 (supposedly) by Mary Doolan, the Kelly's "girl".  In Witness Statements, though, we do not have Mary's word for it (pg. 8 & 38) but Bridget's (which is probably true).

At 10 a.m. Bridget is seen by Mr. Pettee, standing by the front door.

At about 10:30, she is seen by Mrs. Churchill to toss water on one parlor window.

To be precise, there are 3 half-hour intervals, when no one notices Bridget. (The first being from 9-9:30), and later in the forenoon the period not quite encompassing 20 minutes or so, when she is supposedly in her room.

If the state can believe Lizzie killed Andrew in 10 or 12 minutes and be clean, then Bridget can do the same.  Not only THAT, but Bridget has a legetimate reason to be wet, sweating, with hair dissarranged, AND She Also Changed Her Dress.

The odds are the same...but the MOTIVE eludes...

BTW:  Please see the Topic in the PRIVY, pg. 2, the LAST topic, titled "PEARSON-RADIN CONTROVERSY", for more info on Radin and Bridget.

The Pearson-Radin article is very well written and presents the reader with the possibility of Bridget Sullivan's involvement to some extent. Sort of half-way between Radin and Pearson.  Thanks for the typing job on that, Kat.

Well worth reading if you haven't done so.

The article also mentions diaries, rather the lack of them, and I wonder if diaries were a popular thing in that era. What a find that could be if a diary of Lizzie or Emma would surface. It may not shed light on the crimes themselves but may on the everyday life of the Bordens. We know so little of what went on in that house.

(Message last edited May-25th-02  1:00 AM.)

Diaries were VERY POPULAR with young ladies in the Victorian era.  I often see them for sale at antique auctions.  Unfortunately, however, I've never seen one of Emma's, Lizzie's or Bridget's - or even Abby's for that matter.  BTW, do we know that Bridget was literate?  I've pondered that question before but never done any research.  I don't really recall any instance in which Bridget was asked to read anything or mentioned reading anything.  The cooking she did doesn't seem to have been recipe-dependent.  Also, Lizzie's telling her there was a "cheap sale of dress goods at Sargent's" may have meant Bridget was unable to find out about it for herself.  Incidentally, I have just acquired a copy of Muriel Arnold's "Hands of Time."  I haven't begun reading it yet, but her theory appears to be that Bridget did it.  It'll be interesting to learn why she thinks that.

Yes, I agree with Edisto, Harry.  Diaries or journals were very popular with the Victorian set.  Could you imagine getting your hands on Lizzie's own personal diary???  Even as you say about it not containing any murder confessions, just knowing how our Lizzie went about her life, what she thought, etc.  It would be marvelous!  I have to wonder if her diary also didn't go into the kitchen stove as it may have proved to be too incriminating?  Maybe at Mr. Jennings urging?  Hmmmm. 

Stef and I always also wondered if Bridget could actually read a clock face to tell time.
She says there are clocks all over the house but that she doesn't notice them.  She also says she estimated the time at one point in her story of the day by saying she judged by what work she had done, and what she had left to do.  She estimated the time she was upstairs by the town hall clock.  She apparently HAD a clock in her room, but if it was used as an alarm, always set to ring at a certain time, she needn't KNOW the time.

The question of whether she could read is interesting.  In the Prelim. she is cross-examined about a little 6 word note shown her by the District Attorney (pg. 48-9).  She says she thought it was "in printing", not "writing", that Knowlton showed it to her but but she did not read it , he read a little of it to her .

It is entirely possible that Bridget didn't know how to read, write, or tell time.  This is embarrasing to tell, but, I myself did not learn to tell time fully until about 5th grade, why?  The school didn't teach it and I suppose that my parents thought that they would.  I could tell when it was an o'clock or a thirty or even a quarter after, but, that was all I learned on my own.  I also suffered from dyslexia as a small girl which may have lead to an aversion to learning anything with numbers in it.

And, my dear departed husband's mother could not read beyond a kindergartener's level, she was a delivery room nurse.  Pretty scary in this day and age for that, but, she was raised in the depression and I guess had to drop out of school early to care for younger siblings and possibly get work.

And, having said all that, I believe that Bridget's circumstances may have been one of next to no schooling and lots of hard work.  Very sad, really. 

Well, we had wondered if Bridget had a beau.
This may be a coincidence of names:
Witness Statements, pg. 8, there is a Dennis Sullivan on Second Street talking to Mrs. Gomely from #90, at 11:15 a.m.
Then we have a Dennis Sullivan mentioned in Bridget Sullivan's testimony at the Prelim., pg. 46-47, as she stayed with him in Newport when she first came to this country:
Q: Does he live there now?
A: I do not know

Well, it does seem as though our Bridget was quite a popular girl.  But, what of that strange story of her intended husband dying before she got to marry him?  Not much seems to written about her life outside of the Borden home.  She speaks of going out on Wednesday night to visit her girlfriends and thats pretty much that. 

DOES she visit her girlfriends?
Do you know where she say that?  I always wondered where she goes...

It says this in the Trial Vol. 1, page 201/i222, Bridget is on the stand.

Q. I was about to ask you where you passed Wednesday evening?

A. I was up in my friend's in Third street.

Q. Was it far away from the house?

A. No, sir, not far.

Q. What time did you go and what time did you return the Wednesday evening?

A. I guess(more time telling problems?--Susan) I got out about 7 o'clock on Wednesday evening and I went down Second street, called for a friend of mine on Third street: We went down Main street and up Morgan street and turned up Third street to my friend's on Third street.

Now, it is my own supposition here that the "friends" are women, but, knowing the time period and the social mores would Bridget be hanging out with single men?  And I would assume if the friends were male that she would probably indicate as such.  I think that she just takes it for granted that everyone knows that the friends are girlfriends.  I could be wrong.  Bridget could be the town Tramp for all I know?!  I guess that they didn't check too closely on her whereabouts for Wednesday evening, they didn't interview these "friends". 

Thanks, Susan
That was a really good job!

EDIT here:  You had a *clean sweep* going of all the topics tonight, until I got insomnia...kk

(Message last edited May-27th-02  2:47 AM.)

Me and Bridget have it going on with the cleaning business!    Boy, I guess its a slow news day today, everyone must be doing something fun?  Happy Memorial Day everyone! 

I'm with you on that.  Time-telling wasn't something that was taught in school, and I didn't learn it till pretty late either.  (To be honest, I still get confused sometimes.)  Ditto with tying my shoes.  I was always quite a good student in school, but I remember that my mother made me sit down on the kitchen floor one day and told me I would have to learn to tie my own shoes before I could go out and play.  I remember being in tears because I couldn't get 'em to stay tied.  I have a lot of left-right confusion, and I think that makes it difficult to learn these things. (My maternal grandparents had four grandchildren.  All of them were left-handed except me, and I always thought I could have easily switched to the left hand.)

Wow, Edisto, I also had problems with the shoe tying thing!  I can remember as a girl of like 3 or 4 going to a stranger'shouse and asking the old lady there if she could tie my shoe as I didn't want to stop playing and go home and ask my mother to do it!!!

I'm not left-handed or a southpaw as I've heard them called, but, I use my left hand for certain tasks and my right for most others.  For instance, in school I could only do my locker combination with my left hand, if I tried to do it with my right hand, I couldn't remember the numbers!  Strange, isn't it? 

I've not been able to find anything on whether Bridget could read or write. However she does seem to panic a bit when shown something. At the trial, Moody was questioning her on direct, about where her room was and which way it faced. This is from page 195:

Q.  Perhaps this will aid us in fixing the room. In what way does your window look?
A.  It looks out on the back yard.
Q.  Directly into the rear of the house?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  (Exhibiting photograph.)  Will you look at that photograph and see if you can point out the windows in your room? Take time enough so that you will understand it.
A.  I don't know. If that ain't it. I can't explain it.
Q.  If it confuses you, quite likely it may, I won't refer to it. Is it one of those windows in the third story?
A.  Yes, sir, two rooms. The room next to it had one window in it, and two windows leads out in the back yard.

She had lived there almost 3 years but still had a problem identifying the room window from the photograph. There's only 2 on the 3rd floor on that side! Moody's comment "quite likely it may" would seem to indicate to me that he may have thought she was not well educated.


(Message last edited May-27th-02  9:09 PM.)

Yes, Harry, I always had a feeling that he was pandering to her, almost as if she was a child or a little slow.