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Lizzie Andrew Borden

 

Forum URL:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/index.php
Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: April 16th Herald News article

1. "April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by harry on May-1st-02 at 7:55 PM

Article on Christopher Daley who is on tour (for the last five years) giving lectures on the Borden crimes. All you Bordenites in that area might want to see if you can find out his schedule.

http://www.heraldnews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=3858489&BRD=1710&PAG=461&dept_id=99784&rfi=8

(Message last edited May-1st-02  7:56 PM.)


2. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kat on May-1st-02 at 9:55 PM
In response to Message #1.

Oh, Goddess, I couldn't read it..

Do you suppose he makes $ doing that?

PS:  Notice the photo credit?


3. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by bobcook848 on May-2nd-02 at 2:32 PM
In response to Message #2.

Thanks Harry, now I can do some "local" research of the Pembroke area and "find" Mr. Daley...a phone call and I will learn his lecture schedule, if he has one planned.

As soon as I find it I will post it for all the Bordenites to read.

You are still 'THE' NUMBER ONE research specialist in my book Harry, keep up the fabulous work and those websites!

BC


4. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kat on May-2nd-02 at 2:37 PM
In response to Message #3.

bobcookbobcook:

Did you READ that garbage he was spouting?
YOU would DO BETTER on the *lecture circut*, I'm quite sure!!!!


5. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by kashesan on May-2nd-02 at 2:40 PM
In response to Message #1.

I saw this lecture at the Lynn Public Library. Mr Daley referred to Lizzie's attorney as "William Jennings" and claimed that Morse "jumped the back fence to get into the yard" Really?


6. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kat on May-2nd-02 at 3:15 PM
In response to Message #5.

OH GODDESS
Were you squirming in your seat?


7. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kashesan on May-3rd-02 at 7:45 AM
In response to Message #6.

Squirming Kat? I walked funny and my eye kept twitching for three days after! You and/or Stef should be doing these lectures!


8. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kashesan on May-3rd-02 at 7:50 AM
In response to Message #7.

Also: To be honest, yes on more than one occasion I have remembered the number of the bus I was riding on (since we dont have conductors caps to look at anymore) Remembered it and checked out the bus number almost everytime I rode one. Sure it might sound like a strange thing to remember, but you're sitting alone on a bus with nothing to do and you tend to notice banal stuff like that.
I don't think it points to Morse as an alibi-creating murderer or conspiritor as Mr Daley strongly suggests in his lecture. Had Morse not remembered the conductors number, would that have meant something suspicious as well?


9. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Tracie on May-3rd-02 at 8:30 AM
In response to Message #1.

I couldn't stand to be in the same room and listen to his lecture!!!
I read the article on the first day it was posted and couldnt believe what I was reading, still good work on your part Harry!!!

t

ps:  What about all the uneducated people reading this trash, now they think they know the truth!!! horrible .....


10. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by harry on May-3rd-02 at 8:55 AM
In response to Message #8.

Kash, you should have harassed him!

There is quite a few errors just in the news article. I can't imagine how many in an hour or so lecture. You'd think after 5 years he'd be getting it right. When you can't even get the number of blows right on either victim you should think of another career.

I hope the F.R. Historical Society wasn't aware of him before the invite.


11. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Susan on May-3rd-02 at 11:31 AM
In response to Message #10.

Did anyone leave their opinion on that article?  Yeesh!  At least get your facts straight before conjecturing!  As was stated before, how many newbies will see this lecture and think taht they are getting the cold, hard facts?  Oh, the horror! 


12. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kat on May-3rd-02 at 2:26 PM
In response to Message #11.

Is that The Heart of Darkness?
Pretty on target.
Really, do these people get paid for this?
Stef, or I, or bobcookbobcook COULD do this!  We're audacious enough!  And Stef has all that *speech* and *debating* and acting training!  And a Professor!


13. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Susan on May-4th-02 at 1:12 AM
In response to Message #12.

Kat, maybe we could petition one of you to do just that?  Just the short time I've been on this BB, what I've seen has been well thought out and entertaining at the same time! 


14. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kat on May-4th-02 at 2:22 AM
In response to Message #13.

Thakee Mam,
But do these people get paid?


15. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Susan on May-4th-02 at 2:13 PM
In response to Message #14.

I would imagine so?  I really can't remember the last time when I went to a "free" lecture, so there must be some sort of payment.


16. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by augusta on May-4th-02 at 8:11 PM
In response to Message #15.

Thanks for the wonderful post, Harry.  I'd never heard of the man before.  It sounds like he was out more for sensationalism - carrying the tale of Andrew cutting off people's feet ...

I got a book out at the library this past winter on Victorian times.  And in it it showed a great photo of these two streetcar conductors.  Their "badge numbers" were on their hats in LARGE type.  You couldn't miss them.  If that was the kind they wore in Fall River, it's not surprising that Morse would remember them. 

Was Abby ever "Abbie" or even "Abigail"?  I don't know.

If someone corrected him and told him the address of the murder house was now 290, aren't they also wrong because wasn't it changed back to "92" specially afterwards?  I agree with you guys - Kat, Stef, Harry, Bobcookbobcook, Edisto, Susan, - any one of you could do a better lecture.  Maybe he's got it over you guys dramatically, but as far as facts go, he's got some brushing up to do.  I can see Michael Martins sitting there cringing, if he attended at all.


17. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kat on May-4th-02 at 9:14 PM
In response to Message #16.

I'm so glad you brought that up, "Augie", about the house number being specially changed BACK to #92.  I was wondering how I knew this, though, since I haven't been there and you have.
So can someone provide the source of this info?  And were the rest of the #'s changed back also?  Or is it #92 smack in the middle of #230's etc.?


18. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by augusta on May-5th-02 at 12:22 AM
In response to Message #17.

I believe that was the only building re-numbered.  I'm thinking I read it in an LBQ article and/or a book.  Gee, that helps you a LOT.  I am thinking Frank Spiering.  Maybe not, though.  There I go, helping you again!


19. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kat on May-5th-02 at 2:20 AM
In response to Message #18.

I believe you're right.

I was looking around YahooSearch #169, and found the "Bed and Breakfast Network" listing for Lizzie Borden B&B.
It gave the address as:

92 / 230 Second Street
Fall River, MA   02721
ph# 508-675-7333

I guess it shares BOTH numbers!


20. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by edisto on May-5th-02 at 11:23 AM
In response to Message #19.

Yep, Kat, you're right, as usual!  I remember when we were there several years ago, the other houses on the street were 200s, while the Borden house only had the old number (92).  I think it's still officially #230, but they're allowed to use the numerals "92" on the door instead.  One funny thing I remember is that we were there at Halloween, and the neighborhood kids came trick-or-treating.  They got the usual handouts.  I wondered if all of them knew the house's significance...


21. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Susan on May-5th-02 at 1:40 PM
In response to Message #20.

Wow, trick or treating at Lizzie's place!  That just sounds like so much creepy fun on Halloween!  Does the Bed & Breakfast do anything special for Halloween now? 


22. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by augusta on May-6th-02 at 1:13 PM
In response to Message #21.

I'd think all the kids in Fall River would know about that house.  I think the B & B does do something special on Halloween.  Don't they dress up in costumes and do a murder mystery game or something?


23. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by David on May-6th-02 at 11:44 PM
In response to Message #22.



(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  10:03 PM.)


24. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Stefani on May-7th-02 at 12:24 AM
In response to Message #23.

From the History Channel web site we find this:

http://www.historychannel.com/cgi-bin/frameit.cgi?p=http%3A//www.historychannel.com/exhibits/halloween/hallowmas.html

The American tradition of "trick-or-treating" probably dates back to the early All Souls' Day parades in England. During the festivities, poor citizens would beg for food and families would give them pastries called "soul cakes" in return for their promise to pray for the family's dead relatives. The distribution of soul cakes was encouraged by the church as a way to replace the ancient practice of leaving food and wine for roaming spirits. The practice, which was referred to as "going a-souling" was eventually taken up by children who would visit the houses in their neighborhood and be given ale, food, and money.

The tradition of dressing in costume for Halloween has both European and Celtic roots. Hundreds of years ago, winter was an uncertain and frightening time. Food supplies often ran low and, for the many people afraid of the dark, the short days of winter were full of constant worry. On Halloween, when it was believed that ghosts came back to the earthly world, people thought that they would encounter ghosts if they left their homes. To avoid being recognized by these ghosts, people would wear masks when they left their homes after dark so that the ghosts would mistake them for fellow spirits. On Halloween, to keep ghosts away from their houses, people would place bowls of food outside their homes to appease the ghosts and prevent them from attempting to enter.



As European immigrants came to America, they brought their varied Halloween customs with them. Because of the rigid Protestant belief systems that characterized early New England, celebration of Halloween in colonial times was extremely limited there. It was much more common in Maryland and the southern colonies. As the beliefs and customs of different European ethnic groups, as well as the American Indians, meshed, a distinctly American version of Halloween began to emerge. The first celebrations included "play parties," public events held to celebrate the harvest, where neighbors would share stories of the dead, tell each other's fortunes, dance, and sing. Colonial Halloween festivities also featured the telling of ghost stories and mischief-making of all kinds. By the middle of the nineteenth century, annual autumn festivities were common, but Halloween was not yet celebrated everywhere in the country.

In the second half of the nineteenth century, America was flooded with new immigrants. These new immigrants, especially the millions of Irish fleeing Ireland's potato famine of 1846, helped to popularize the celebration of Halloween nationally. Taking from Irish and English traditions, Americans began to dress up in costumes and go house to house asking for food or money, a practice that eventually became today's "trick-or-treat" tradition. Young women believed that, on Halloween, they could divine the name or appearance of their future husband by doing tricks with yarn, apple parings, or mirrors.



Now did andrew give them food or money when they came to his door? I bet he was tricked quite a lot!


25. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Susan on May-7th-02 at 1:57 AM
In response to Message #24.

If they had it in abundance back then, I would imagine that Andrew's house would have been TPed.  But, since that is not the case, his windows probably got soaped and his house pelted with rotten eggs!


26. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by David on May-7th-02 at 2:52 AM
In response to Message #24.



(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  10:04 PM.)


27. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kashesan on May-7th-02 at 7:58 AM
In response to Message #26.

Mabe some of them dressed up like Lizzie and went to Maplecroft carrying hatchets and fans? And slop pails? I bet Andrew probably put up a sign saying "Measles" on his front door every Halloween too.


28. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by stefani on May-7th-02 at 12:03 PM
In response to Message #27.

So now we have two questions, and maybe three or four.

1.  How did the Bordens celebrate Christmas?
2.  How did the Bordens celebrate Halloweeen?
3.  How did the Bordens celebrate birthdays?


Maybe the bigger question is Did the Bordens celebrate ANYTHING?


29. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Kat on May-7th-02 at 1:57 PM
In response to Message #28.

On the "Frontier House" that takes place in *1886* (?), they had a birthday celebration with presents for the litle boy. 
The commentator said that presents were not usually given, nor birthdays really celebrated in those times, that it was a newer observance...More like a 20th century one.


30. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Edisto on May-7th-02 at 2:03 PM
In response to Message #24.

My experience with regard to Halloween trick-or-treating was slightly different.  When I was a small child in South Carolina in the late 1930s and early 1940s, we had never heard of trick-or-treating!  We had a big fundraiser at the local consolidted school, and all the kids (but no adults) dressed up in costumes.  There were a costume parade, carnival-type games with prizes, a "haunted house" and other entertainments.  The costumes were quite eliaborate.  I usually wore something my mother had made for a school play, etc.  That's probably because she had three kids and didn't have time to make new costumes for all of us.  Some of the bad boys in town did play tricks, but there was no begging for treats in connection with it.  On my way to school on November 1, I recall seeing a house that had had its gate removed and placed on the roof.  When I was ten, in the mid-1940s, we moved to a larger town in North Carolina.  Trick-or-treating was an established custom there.  The first question everyone asked me at my new school was, "What are you going to be for Halloween, and do you want to go trick or treating with us?"  They had to explain what it was.  I think trick-or-treating was probably a custom in some communities and not in others.  Fortunately for me, I'm not quite old enough to know what the kids did in the 1890s!


31. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Edisto on May-7th-02 at 2:07 PM
In response to Message #21.

The B&B did indeed have a delightful and well-attended party on Halloween (1998).  Those of us staying at the house attended, and tickets were also sold to a good many other guests.  There was a rather strange play that concerned the Borden case but didn't necessarily stick to the facts.  (Jack the Ripper was a character in it.)  My husband and I wore our Victorian costumes, but I don't think everyone dressed up.  I did get the feeling that some of the kids that knocked on the door that night didn't know the story of the Borden house.  Maybe they were new in town.


32. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Susan on May-8th-02 at 12:21 AM
In response to Message #31.

Edisto, did you make your and your husband's Victorian costumes or rent or buy them?  It sounded like a fun party.  Maybe those children should be told just that Miss Borden wasn't very nice to her parents. 


33. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Stefani on May-8th-02 at 12:34 AM
In response to Message #32.

That is only if you think she did it! If you don't then, well, she was a good daughter who didn't get along with her stepmother, but was adored by and adoring to her father.

Here in Orlando, at Universal Studios, they have this yearly thing called Halloween Horror Nights. Well anyway, Lizzie is one of the characters there. She walks around with a white blouse and blue skirt, blood on both, with ghoulish blackened eyes, and a hatchet. She jumps out a people in the fake fogged nights.

Quite a thing to BECOME a monster isn't it? Little did she know that she would be the object of terror 110 years later!


34. "Re: April 16th Herald News article"
Posted by Susan on May-8th-02 at 12:57 AM
In response to Message #33.

You are correct, Stefani!  If Lizzie did it.  But, I have always felt that even if she didn't, she had to have known who did.  Theres just no way around it, she was home all morning, in the house, upstairs, downstairs, and in the yard and barn.  I think Helen Keller would have known who the killer was!    I just cannot believe that she is totally innocent of the whole deal.  Maybe her strange spells that have been mentioned before and vehemently denied by Mr. Jennings, were that she had a multiple personality disorder?  She did it as one personality, came back to herself and obviously wouldn't know what the other had done?  Just a little pet idea of mine.


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