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1. "I don't think Lizzie did it"
Posted by laurie1125 on Jan-20th-02 at 9:11 AM

Reading all the books on Lizzie, I still come to the conclusion that she did not do this. Back in l892 when she discovered that her father was dead on the couch, no one saw blood on her, her hair was not wet. And as for the nude theory, remember this was the Victorian age. And as for who did it, maybe we could point a finger at a stranger in town lurking around the area, the illegitimate son of Mr. Borden, or maybe Emma slipped back into town undiscovered and did the deed.
I know that a lot of people will disagree with me.

I don't think you are alone in your beliefs. Since it has been so long since the crimes, it now becomes an exercise at 'proving' it one way or the other. Detectives work from their gut instincts all the time---but as a starting place. Now comes the hard part, searching through the sources and documents and images and stories for EVIDENCE!

Since you don't think she did it, who do you think is the likely suspect? One you are closest to believing is the culprit?

So many suspects in this crime. A total stranger perhaps, maybe Emma, and Lizzie knew that emma did it, could even have been good ole Uncle Joh, (but I doubt this).
By the way January 21 is Abby Durfee Gray Borden's birthday, and also the day that Alice Russel died in l941.

Laurie, i believe it was Billy. Did u know that he was so skilled with a hatchet that he could kill a lame horse with one swoop of the hatchet without getting any blood on him? Arnold Brown says so.


All kidding aside, Laurie, it IS within the realm of possibility, however slim the chance appears to be, that someone other than Lizzie did it. I'll give u a more or less comprehensive list of non-Lizzie suspects:

John V. Morse--supposedly was seen by 2 people across town on 4 Weybosset street at the time of the murders.

William S. Borden--no birth certificate, a man by this name died in 1904. Henry Hawthorne's notes about the Borden case, riddled with errors and inaccuracies, claim that Ellen Eagan saw a man leave the side door on the fateful morning and that police told her to keep quiet about it; Hawthorne claims as a boy he worked for a farmer in east Taunton named William borden and heard him shake his hatchet and talk to it, saying: "u know my father married that fat sow [Abby] when he should have married my mother; u know, and u were there when they died!" Nothing whatsoever has ever been found to substantiate any of this.

Joseph W. Carpenter--had an alibi from a woman (her name escapes me presently).

Yankee Dan Sullivan--his physical description supposedly fits eye-witness accounts of the strange nervous wild-eyed stranger seen near the house on the fateful morning; also it is alleged he road his buggy down Second Street on the morning of August 4.

Emma Borden--was 12 miles away in Fairhaven visiting a widow and her daughter, the Brownells. They would have noticed her missing (didnt) and she didnt have enough time to commit the murders and get back in time to receive Dr. Bowen's telegram, yet she recieved the telegram. Clearly this proves she never left Fairhaven.

Seabury Bowen--has an alibi, was seeing to a patient on another street.

David Mason Anthony, Jr.--a retired nurse (Ruby Cameron) from Maine said that she had attended to Lizzie in her 1926 hospital stay when she was operated on for her gallbladder. Ruby claimed that Lizzie confessed her "boyfriend" David Anthony did it.

"Me and Brownie" Everett Brown and Thomas Barlow--juvenile delinquents who may have purgered themselves by testifying that the barn was cool on the morning of the murders. They were later arrested the following year for stealing shoes and again lied about particulars of the incident.

Charles Davis--a butcher and close friend of John Morse from South Dartmouth.

Edward Barrett--said he was the killer. Detained by the FRPD, later released.

Antonio Auriel--Portuguese labourer interrogated by the FRPD, and released.

Peter Cooper--the man the Boston Herald says was seen by the young boy Peter Kerouack jumping the Borden fence on the fateful morning; Cooper proved he was in New Bedford.

Jose Carreiro--man who committed the 1893 Manchester murder but was not in the US on August 4, 1892.

Alfred Smith--man said he killed the Bordens. Provided no proof. Was dismissed.

Charlie Peckham--farmer who walked from Westport to the FRPD to turn himself in as the murderer. He was found mentally incompetent and his story contradictory and unreliable. His wife came to pick him up and take him home.

(Message last edited Jan-20th-02  2:43 PM.)

I'm with you, Laurie.  I don't think Lizzie did it, either.  I really like the Billy theory.  But I feel kinda foolish because the folks on this forum have been searching for so many years and know just about everything printed on the subject.

Dave R:  I liked your reply to Laurie.  Has anyone ever checked out Brown's theory. I started a new topic, cuz it seems so credible.  Why couldn't the Fall River PD, etc., not to mention the State of Mass, decide to place the blame on Lizzie?  Politicians are sometimes liars and deceivers.

I'll tell you what I will do. I'll make the Lizzie Borden Meatloaf Dinner and have everyone over so we can discuss this further

Joe, thats the beauty of this thing, so many possibilities

Dave, I like it!  I like it!  This is why I'm really glad I joined.  Laurie, no mutton in the meat loaf, please.

Good post, Dave.  The Carpenter guy was given an alibi by his landlady.  I don't know if I believe that or not.  Why would the barber swear he shaved the guy in Fall River??  The barber was closerthanthis to the customer he swore was Carpenter and must have talked to him as well during the process.

There's an intriguing thread on here that Kat did on the Radin-Pearson controversy.  In it there is a fascinating theory on who might have done it.  (Won't tell - you'll have to go there.) 

Yes, Laurie, those things - lack of blood on Lizzie, etc. - bother me too.  And there wasn't much time especially after Andrew was killed.  I can't get past feeling that Lizzie was in on it, though.  I keep going back to thinking she helped a third party.  I ask myself who had opportunity?  Lizzie or Bridget.  Inside the murder house, every door opens into another room.  There are virtually no hallways.  It would not seem as if someone could hide between 9:30 and 11 am without Lizzie and/or Bridget knowing about it.  What was the motive?  Who benefitted?  There seems to have been a lot of rage in those killings - they weren't just shot or stabbed in the heart. 

There was a lot of pressure on the cops to charge someone.  The city was scared, too, knowing this fiend was out there somewhere.  Knowlton knew he was going into the courtroom without enough evidence.  He did not expect a conviction.  He considered just dropping the whole thing. 

Bridget makes me wonder, she really does.  When the cops came to pick her up for questioning she thought she was being arrested and broke down (unfortunately she didn't say anything).  Why Bridget wasn't charged the same as Lizzie - or even seemingly suspected - is odd. 

More research into the William Borden theory can't hurt. 

I think that Uncle John was too much aware of the clock and had too tight of an alibi for a horse farmer.  His alibi is just too good(even though he probably was at his relative's home across town).  Wonder why Lizzie ended up by the screen door after she found Andrew dead? (per Bridget and the neighbor).  Wonder why Uncle John wandered out to pick up some pears in the backyard first upon his return.  There were cops, people gathering in front of the house, yet he said he saw nobody.  Maybe both Lizzie and John were looking out back to see if the killer had gone.

Laurie, I fully respect your right to a dissenting opinion (ain't I generous!), but the only item I have a problem with in your original post is the assumption that Lizzie (and, by extension, any woman?  Any one at all?  Please clarify) wouldn't commit a crime in the nude because it was "the Victorian Age."  Now, even I don't even think Lizzie committed the crime bare naked, but that was kind of a sweeping generality, doncha think? 

(Message last edited Jan-22nd-02  12:51 PM.)

The whole point behind the "Victorian Age" is that everyone went about their vices as usual, just not so openly.  Lizzie stayed so often in her room, maybe she was a "closet nudist" and Enjoyed being naked, but didn't understand the phenomena, and maybe was ashamed.  The Victorian Age was "into" shaming...
If she was liberated enough of morals to chop up her family she was liberated enough of morals to do it naked.
I don't nesessarily believe this either but Bob, you and Laurie got me thinking about it...
Now, Dave, please don't comment...I can see that twinkle in your eye from Canada to Florida!!!

In response to Dave's list of suspects, I have taken the time to find a few and cite references for any who wish to follow up on these names:

THOMAS BARLOW:
Rebello, pg. 89n, Oct.8, 1893 account of Barlow's arrest for breaking into a store wearing stolen shoes.  States he was with others, but does Not name EVERETT BROWN ("Brownie").

DR. BOWEN:
Knowlton Papers, pg. 117, letter #HK113, unsigned, dated Dec.2nd /'92:
"I have a few words of importance that I think will be of sirvice in Lizzie Borden's Case.  on the day of the murder I was coming towards Fall River from the Shove Mill, where I met Dr. Bowen and a young man in a Carrage, driveing so fast that I turned around to look after them.  I thought at the time that someone was dieing and He was going to see them.  I am well acquainted with Him, but I never saw Him look so wild in my life before, it was about 15 minutes to eleven.  the young man was sitting on the left side of the Doctor.  I met them near the Slade School house, the Doctor had hold of the reins with both hands, driving for dear life.  has Dr. Bowen ever been questioned were He was on the morning of the Murder.  this is the truth and nothing but the truth."

JOSEPH W. CARPENTER, JR. :
Knowlton Papers, pg.153 & 154, letter #HK143:
-Joseph Carpenter swore before a Notary Public his whereabouts.
-VICTORIA FREEMAN-"...occupies premises Nos. 33 & 35 Maiden Lane, Albany (N.Y.)..and rents rooms in said premises"..swears to same Notary Public, Mr. Wm. F. Beers, as to veracity of Carpenters statement as far as she knows, dated Jan.24, 1893.

CHARLES H. PECKHAM (& Mrs. Peckham):
THE Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, pg.133 & 134

Also pg 134.-Sourcebook:
-the "...search for the man who was seen sitting on a stone wall Tues. with a bloody axe in his lap..."

Oh Kat, but I did so want to say something naughty :). Its on the tip of my tongue, but I'll behave (grin)

Dave:  when you are good, you are very, very good.....

Back to Suspects...

DAVID ANTHONY:
Rebello, pg.138-139
"84 year-old Ruby Francis Cameron of Cherryfield, Maine, made national headlines when she claimed that David Anthony, who wanted to marry Lizzie, killed the Bordens.  There has been no confirmation to prove David Anthony, Jr., committed the 1892 murders.  Miss Cameron died Nov.18, 1985."--
--Profile is included...lists 20 newspaper & magazine headlines.

DR. BOWEN:
Listed in Rebello Index under "S" for suspects, pg.136.

CARPENTER:
Listed in Rebello Index under "S" for suspects, pg.132-133.

DR. HANDY (& his suspect):
Witness Statements, pg.15--
-Thurs.., Aug,11, 1892-notes by Doherty--investigated "MR. HENRICK WOOD, in Boston, with Dr. Handy--shown a photo, Dr. Handy "pronounced him not the person."
Pg.19--In notes reported Sept.25, 1892--
Dr. Handy is transcribed as saying, "Now Mr. Harrington, I never told you I thought the man I saw committed the crime, did I?  I never said the man I saw committed the crime, and don't think he did."
--Listed in Rebello Index under "S" for suspects, pg.65, "Wild-Eyed Man"...not necessarily Henrick Wood.

PORTUGUESE:
Listed in Rebello Index under "S" for suspects, pg 50n--
PORTUGUESE FARMHAND--quoted from Porter's The Fall River Tragedy--"...a Portuguese had been seen burying a bloody hatchet on the Borden farm in Somerset (sic), Mass."

ALFRED A. SMITH:
Knowlton Papers, pg.147-148, 151-153, letter #HK142
"A boy 16 years old, son of Robert Smith, of Suffolk St., Fall River, Mass., who was sent from Fall River 2nd District Court for Breaking, Entering & Larceny on Dec.28, 1892, made a statement in the presence of Deputy Super. Charles Hart"..and C. Hammond.
--This statement is peculiar, somewhat believable, and fascinating.  He maintains he passed the Borden house near the relative time, and saw a pair of gloves along with a bloody hatchet laying outside the north side of the house near the fence and he stole them, used them for a time, then ditched one glove and sold the hatchet for some candy.  He claims a woman from the house saw him steal these items.

YANKEE DAN SULLIVAN:
Listed in Rebello Index under "S" for suspects, pg. 137.
"Mysterious Stranger Still a Suspect in 1892 Borden Slayings", The Sunday Enterprise, Brockton, MA, Sept.13, 1992: 25

"Mr. Edward Waring, the grandson of Lizzie's lawyer, Andrew J. Jennings, sugessted YANKEE DAN SULLIVAN may very well be the mysterious stranger encountered near the Borden house on the morning of the murders.  The stranger was described as wild-eyed and red-faced.  Also, a 13 year old boy who had been in the neighborhood saw a 'tall, well-built man with a light soft hat, black suit and some kind of russet shoes.'

Mr. Waring discovered the name of Dan Sullivan in his grandfather's notebooks which contained newspaper clippings and interviews with witnesses.  An old man was beaten and robbed in Providence, R.I., on July 20, 1892.  Yankee Dan Sullivan was found in New York trying to sell the man's watch.  While Dan was in prison in New York, Yankee Dan wrote to his brother Dennis Sullivan in Fall River.  Mr. Waring believed there was a connection to Bridget Sullivan, the Borden's maid.....testimony of twelve neighbors who described the mysterious stranger as 'common looking, angry, reddest-looking face I ever saw, derby hat, eyes staring out of head, and very frightened.' "

--Witness Statements, down-load-able at web-site
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com
"Lizzie's Library" gives multiple page numbers for "suspects" investigated or never found:
Pgs. 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 29, 32, 33, 40, 41, 44, 45. (some included here).

--Ok, Dave:  Will you please finish what was started and provide the references for your last 3 named "Suspects"? I'm PROOPED...as in Greg Proops, the host of Rendez-View, who tonight mentioned Lizzie Borden (on a dating show!):

EDWARD BARRETT
ANTONIO AURIEL
PETER COOPER

--reminder, all this can be printed and added to your files.

Good work, Kat.

As far as Edward Barrett goes, not much more is known. According to the 1891 city directory, he was either a hatter, mason, or weaver, probably a hatter who lived on 307 Pleasant Street.

Wasnt Antonio Auriel the Portuguese farmhand who was seen burying a hatchet?

Between 10 and 11, a 12 year old boy named Peter Kerouack, according to the Boston Herald of the 5th, noticed a man (allegedly Peter Cooper) jumping the fence between the Borden and Chagnon yards. The man was tall and well-built, wore a light soft hat, and some kind of russet shoes. A few seconds later, Kerouack claimed to hear a noise like someone screaming for help from the Borden house. Kerouack wasn't called by either team at the trial.

John D. Maher is another suspect.

(Message last edited Jan-28th-02  1:37 PM.)

See Above:
The 12 year old boy and the russett shoes is in the Waring interview about Yankee Dan...

UPDATE:


I had a closer look into it. Pete Kerouack's story is bogus. He was with a companion who contradicted his story, saying that the two of them had been else where at 11 or so O'clock that morning, and therefore Kerouack could not have seen anyone jump the fence between the Borden and Chagnon yards.

Another temporary suspect was Thomas Walker, a tenant of Andrew's on 4th Street who had been late with the rent. Rumor that there were angry words between Andrew and Walker. But Walker's employer was able to verify that he had been at work on the morning of the murders, therefore could not have committed them.

Bridget accused the Portugese farm laborer at one of Andrew Borden's farms in Somerset of possibly having killed the Bordens, but when Officers Medley or Harrington went there they found no suspicious hatchet, although there were dead chickens lying around which had obviously been beheaded by a hatchet or axe. It was later learned that the Portugese who worked there had been far away from the Borden house on the fateful morning. The Swede who cut the Bordens' wood also had a solid alibi