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Lizzie Andrew Borden

 

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Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: Is it Possible?

1. "Is it Possible?"
Posted by augusta on Jan-13th-02 at 8:48 PM

There are some who say that the Borden case will never be solved.  All the people are deceased.  The evidence is too fragmented.  The testimony too contradictory.  Not enough information. 

I disagree.  Something new is found out about the case every now and then that gets us all a-flutter.  Forensics hasn't come into the picture much yet.  We're becoming distanced from past generations who didn't want to talk about Lizzie and the murders.  I think we can hope for more photos of Lizzie to surface out of attics of old friends' great-great-decendants (She liked to have her picture taken.  She liked to give things to people.  Don't you think there's some photos tucked away somewhere that were given to friends by Lizzie?)  And letters.  She wrote well.  I think she may have written often.  Letters from Emma, too.  Maybe more from Alice Russell or Mrs. Churchill or Dr. Bowen will come to light. 

We have a lot of pieces to the puzzle.  Sometimes it seems if we just get the linking piece of that one over there to fit with this one here, and it really fits - it isn't hammered into place by an over-zealous student - it just might happen.

As a fellow Bordenite, what do you think?  Is the case a lost cause - unsolvable?  Or do you think that it will be solved some day?  Soon?  And how? 




2. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-13th-02 at 10:25 PM
In response to Message #1.

Great question, Sherry, becuase it goes to the very heart of the case. This is the question that we'd like an answer to more than any other question--is this case solvable, will it ever be solved in an utterly conclusive way? Persoanlly, I fear that this case is doomed to remain in the dark shadows of mystery. There's no Sherlock Holmes-esque resolution to the story and no unmasking of the true villain to everyone's satisfaction. Most of us have always thought its Lizzie, many others think it was somebody else. BUT I believe that there will be some more revelations, eg. from the Hilliard Papers, and police autopsy photos, etc that the Fall River Historical Society has hidden away in vaults. Call them up at the FRHS and the standard line you'll get is: "The Fall River Historical Society plans to publish it sometime in the future." Some people have been waiting for years and years, some prominent researchers have solicited permission to use these unpublished materials. But they get the standard line--sorry, no. I guess the thing that needs to be considered is that people like curator Martins and his assistant Binette have to make a living too. These people cant make more than 20-25K a year right? They need to subsidize their income by coming out with the "The Knowlton Papers", etc. So I understand from that perspective, but its fair to say that the FRHS is less willing to share certain unpublished materials than just about any other historical society would be, IMHO. Their action is understandable because Lizzie is profitable and they wanna improve their somewhat meager incomes, but its not helpful to research. Neither is the Robinson Firm's suppression of Lizzie attorney George Robinson's Papers. But thats life i guess.


(Message last edited Jan-13th-02  10:40 PM.)


3. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-13th-02 at 11:29 PM
In response to Message #2.

This message is not directed at any individual,is my own decision to post, and is merely submitted to inform:

Rec'd July 30, 2001, a reply to a query by Dr. Koorey, from Michael Martins, Curator, letterhead:  The Fall River Historical Society:

"......The Fall River Historical Society does have in it's possession a collection of documents which have not yet been released to Borden scholars because we are in the process of preparing them for publication.  These are the papers of Rufus Bassett Hilliard, donated to the Society by one of his descendants.  The Society will be publishing them in the same format as THE KNOWLTON PAPERS.  I expect it will be some time before this work is complete as we have several other projects in the works as well.

With the exception of the Hilliard papers, all of the materials in the Borden collection are made public to interested parties by appointment in the archive.  The Historical Society does not have any official documents, personal papers, legal documents, the will of Andrew J. Borden, or any other papers that are not made public.... that people would continue to perpetuate the myth that the Society maintains a vast collection of works that are not made available.  The Historical Society was founded in order to be a repository for materials related to Fall River and it's people....
....There are still, in private hands, materials that these enthusiasts would find of interest that pertain to the life and legend of Lizzie A. Borden.  There are a number of pieces in private collections which the Historical Society hopes some day to acquire, however, it is not my place, nor the place of anyone connected with this Historical Society, to discuss materials held by private individuals.  Should any of these materials come into the Society's hands, they would be made available in the same manner as any other of the other collections...."

(Message last edited Jan-13th-02  11:58 PM.)


4. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by augusta on Jan-14th-02 at 6:51 PM
In response to Message #3.

Aha!  So the FRHS knows of stuff in some private collections.  Just think of how much is out there that they don't know about.  In time I think people that have stuff will realize how historically important it is and come out with it.  I heard about the Hilliard papers a while back.  Those must have at least something new in them.  I believe Mr. Martins when he says the society does not have anything hidden away.  He strikes me as a very professional person and a man of some integrity.  Now the Robinson File makes me angry.  What a dumb ruling the 'higher-ups' made.  What's the point in keeping those locked up???  And the people there read them themselves - and THEY weren't Lizzie's attorney!  I don't think it has anything to do with attorney-client privilege.  Why don't we make some noise about it??


5. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Stefani on Jan-14th-02 at 11:35 PM
In response to Message #4.

Augusta, do you think that the reason why the Robinson file is kept secret, so long after the deaths of everyone involved, is that there is some "incriminating" stuff in there that would mess up the reputation of Robinson? Since he was the Ex-Governor and a man of some reputation, do you think his firm is protecting him? And if so what could that something be?


6. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-15th-02 at 4:13 PM
In response to Message #5.

As I understand from a good source, there are still unpublished photos pertaining to the Borden case in the FRHS that the curator has denied to give permission to use. But he seems like a very nice guy, I'm just stating the facts. The Hilliard papers will soon be published by the FRHS, I believe. Keep in mind, these are some 600 documents, letters that Hilliard got from all over, and they must all be transcribed by hand. Thats time-consuming. Especially in today's world.


7. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-15th-02 at 5:47 PM
In response to Message #6.

You'll have to name your source or put away the topic, Dave.  I left out the words Martins used to describe the rumors that there are hidden treasures on the Borden case being withheld.  Shouldn't I believe the respected Curator of the FRHS?

-well, for experimentation's sake, that was 2 hours between "EDITS".

(Message last edited Jan-15th-02  7:52 PM.)


8. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-16th-02 at 12:20 AM
In response to Message #7.

Please dont get me wrong, all I'm saying is this: of course the FRHS doesnt have a treasure of hidden Bordenia that it keeps locked away (except for the Hilliard Papers), I never suggested that it did, I was only talking about the fact that there are photos relevant to the Borden case that the FRHS plan to publish along with the Hilliard papers and u can see these unpublished photos in the archive with Martins--BUT u are denied permission to publish them. I wont name names or give out specifics becuase this is a public forum and private correspondence is confidential, but I personally know at least two people who have asked permission to publish these photos and they were turned down. I have absolutely nothing against the Fall River Historical Society or Michael Martins, the FRHS is great for Lizzie and for helping to keep the story of Lizzie alive. Martins was Florence Brigham's protege, her "boy", most people say he's friendly and nice and that he's going a good job as curator as her successor.

(Message last edited Jan-16th-02  12:24 AM.)


9. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-16th-02 at 6:17 AM
In response to Message #8.

You probably know more about this than I do.  It was a misunderstanding about the photo's.  All I have is a cordial letter from Martins., that Stef said I shouldn't have quoted, but I did not want to mangle his words or intent, by paraphrasing and I figured he was a professional at writing these types of letters.
I'm just glad Augusta FINALLY got her answer about private collections--at least she's thrilled she was right & has something cool to look forward to.
Thanks for taking the extra time to make yourself clear--it's appreciated!


10. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Jan-16th-02 at 12:07 PM
In response to Message #9.

I guess I live in hope that something will surface...but then, if the case is solved to a fare-thee-well, we won't need to continue to discuss it, will we?  Answer: We probably still would, as students of WWII do.  I have to admit I was hoping that the good folk of Fall River would let Professor James Starr exhume Andrew and Abby's bones, for whatever forensic clues we might've gotten there (defense wounds?).  I'd still like to see a new picture of Lizzie (and I don't think that group shot we all studied is a picture of Lizbeth and pals, unfortunately), preferably with her teeth showing.  You never really know what someone looks like until you see their teeth!

Personal to Dave - How ya doin'?     


11. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-16th-02 at 2:50 PM
In response to Message #10.

No problem, Kat, I love chatting on here with ya and my other fellow Lizzie buddies!


Hey Bob!! Where ya been ol' buddy ol' pal--I've missed ya!

I agree about the Starr thing (who has no relation to Ken Starr LOL).
So-called "Lizzie relatives" like Douglas and Joan Borden wrote in protest against James Starrs's 1992 attempt and the skulls and bodies were never exhumed. What an anti-climax! I prefer climaxes LMAO!!!!!

Still no cavities, Bob



12. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Stefani on Jan-16th-02 at 3:45 PM
In response to Message #11.

Just to clear it up, the reason why I told Kat it was not cool to post portions of the letter was because, as I understand it, content of letters belong to the letter writer not the receiver of the letter. I think that in this case, however, her instinct to quote Martins was probably a good idea as then no misunderstanding could be made from the words.

Martins was very emphatic that they are NOT holding back on any stash of stuff (and knowing him --he is careful with his words--he would not be that specific about it if it were not so, or put it in writing) and thinks and knows there is stuff out there in private collections. I got the impression that the FRHS is actively trying to purchase these things and may have future announcements regarding this in the years to come. He did not reveal just who owns stuff, but just that it is "out there".

Hey Bob, great to hear from  you!!!! Dare I say it? Welcome home!


13. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Jan-17th-02 at 10:48 AM
In response to Message #12.

Happy to be here!  I don't think you violated any statutes by printing the letter.  In fact, it was important to hear just what Michael Martins says about those assertions.  It would be a SIMPSONS*-like scenario if the FRHS was indeed holding something that absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, either exonerated or convicted Lizzie, and the powers that be realized that to release it would destroy the mystery and the added income that it provides, hmm?

*I'm thinking of Lisa's discovery of the villainy of town founder Jebediah Springfield, which is hushed up by the town historian and curator (voiced by Donald Sutherland) and eventually and ironically by Lisa herself, who realizes that the town needs Jeb to have been a hero.


14. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Stefani on Jan-17th-02 at 12:27 PM
In response to Message #13.

I originally wrote Martins to find out the scoop on the "hidden documents" rumor that has been going around. People had been saying that it was true, but could not say for sure how they knew this. I think it was the old conspiracy theory stuff rearing its ugly head again. Anyway, I decided to go to the head honcho and he very clearly stated his case. I trust that he would not put it in writing if it were not true. His reputation and veracity is on the line.

On a side note, I am dismayed that the FRHS does not accept email. Only phone calls and letters. Good thing about that is you get a nice long letter from Martins when you write to him. He is very good about responding.

I know the quoting of the letter is not going to get me or Kat in any trouble, and as Kat says, Martins would probably appreciate his words used instead of somebody's summation of his words, but when you put something on the web you have no control how others will then use it or abuse it.


15. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by augusta on Jan-17th-02 at 2:55 PM
In response to Message #14.

Well, one person who is supposed to have a lot of Lizzie stuff is Robert Flynn.  But I don't know what he has or how much.  (Source:  LBQ, Volume 1, #1.) 

George Quigley would be another person who is selling some Lizzie stuff on eBay from time to time.  I'd expect more for sale in the future (just my opinion).

No, I don't think the Robinson firm is trying to protect the reputation of George Robsinson.  If that were so, they wouldn't have gone to the higher-ups in Massachusetts for their opinion on releasing the file.  The firm would have probably released them if they hadn't have been advised against it.  It feels like it's a power thing - they had the power to advise the firm not to do it and they used that power.  I think it was a wrong decision and a hurtful one to the public. 

Contacting the firm itself only gets a 'sorry, but no' answer if anything.  Isn't there someone who can take a higher step???  I'm a Sunday school director - I could appeal to God, as we all could - but I mean someone like in between??

I did get some legal advice on the Robinson Files last year.  I was told that if a relative of Lizzie's came forward and approached them it could work. 

The firm was quoted as saying there is "no smoking gun" in the Robinson Files.  In other words, there's nothing in them that comes out and says, "Lizzie told me today she is guilty, but that's okay.  I will represent her to my utmost - George."  But there are some things that historians may be interested in.  So there are NEW things in the Robinson Files.  We all have so many pieces of the puzzle.  Couldn't it happen that a piece we're missing might be in there, one that might go unnoticed to someone who isn't immersed in her case like some others are? 

This is still an open murder case.  Or was that forgotten because Lizzie was acquitted, which makes no sense but it seems that way.  There are no statutes of limitations on murder cases.  So how can the relatives of Lizzie block Professor Starr from investigating and exhuming the bodies??? 


16. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by dave rehak on Jan-17th-02 at 3:48 PM
In response to Message #15.

Hey Sherry, there are some wondeful Lizzie Borden "private collections" in various people's hands, like Flynn, Roseberry, Thibault, Rebello--those we know about. BUT I think there are at least one or two "private collections" that are really private, as in, few if any know about them. In fact, I have a source (sorry, I have to say it like that and without more specificity) that there are letters, tint types of friends, personal items, diaries, poetry, etc by/about Lizzie still out there in private hands.


17. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by augusta on Jan-17th-02 at 7:35 PM
In response to Message #16.

I'm sure you're right, Dave.  I'm also thinking descendants of Lizzie's friends maybe who have things like that, and maybe someday they won't feel the need to keep it so hush hush. I do believe over time things will trickle out.

It would be wonderful if some of the persons who have things could get together and do a photo book on their collections.

I also don't believe that that's Lizzie in that one group photo.  However it does look like Mary Rice Livermore in front. We never see an old picture with people's teeth showing.  I guess that would be too casual for a formal portrait.


18. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Kat on Jan-17th-02 at 11:09 PM
In response to Message #15.

I recently got the impression that, back then, some states actually did have a statute of limitations on murder cases, but can't be more specific at this time...(Pearson?)


19. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Kat on Feb-3rd-02 at 10:27 PM
In response to Message #15.

Augusta yearns:
<<<"...Isn't there someone who can take a higher step (to releases the Robinson files)"?>>>>

If those files were located in Central Florida, it's possible.

I would call in all *my* troops:

-A former Congressman--my dentist
-A current Congressman--my history teacher
-The County CHAIRMAN of the Commission, who used to be the Tax Assessor, who was my neighbor and tenant at the apartment complex where I worked...I used to collect HIS rent!
-The former Mayor, who is a neighbor, 3 doors down
-Two newspaperman/woman, one lives right behind me
-My attorney who helped me through Probate, and her wily Assistant who last year was the State President of N.O.W.--she could sure find marchers with placards in a HURRY!
-A State's Attorney-who I had dinner with at a Banquet given by the Newspaper--he was the County Sherriff at the time--I knew his father--he jokingly gave me a "Get Out Of Jail Free Card", which has yet to be redeemed!

There are benefits to living in a community for 37 years!

Too bad that Robinson file isn't HERE!  That would be fun descending on the firm!


(Message last edited Feb-5th-02  2:54 AM.)


20. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by augusta on Feb-4th-02 at 11:10 AM
In response to Message #19.

I think something else that will trickle out some day - and it's perhaps something we should keep an eye out for - are photos of Lizzie's pets.  Or photos of Lizzie with her pets.  She LOVED them - at least her three dogs. 

Hey, Kat.  You don't suppose one of your friends would want to be involved in it, would you?  It would get them national exposure.  Maybe they could just refer us to another person who is licensed in Mass. that could help. 

You know, the Borden case could even be marked "CLOSED".  Does anyone know if it's open or closed??  I've never heard of a state not having a statute of limitation on a murder, but it's possible.  I wonder if the Robinson Firm would answer those questions for us?


21. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by dave rehak on Feb-4th-02 at 2:47 PM
In response to Message #20.

In The Borden Murder Mystery: In Defense of Lizzie Borden, p. 7, Arthur S. Phillips writes that our knowledge of all things Lizzie "has been limited to such facts as were evidenced at the trial, plus those disclosed by the prosecution and those revealed by press investigation. The mass of documents and other evidence collected by the defense have never been disclosed or discussed, due to the fact that until the recent death of Miss Borden, their secrecy was, in the opinion of Mr. Jennings, important to her defense."

What I know about the robinson Papers is this: they've been catologued and put in protective document folders. It includes material which were puboicly available at the time, like newspaper clippings, but also a lot fo material which is/was never disclosed.

The files are in a storage room on the 16th floor locked in a 5 drawer file cabinet.

Allow me to put forth a very educated guess. The files might contain letters between Lizzie and Robinson; letters between Robinson and other lawyers involved in the case; Robinson's notes, both strategic preparations and documenting how the trial progressed; and other documents relating to testimony at the trial and preliminary proceedings. I dont believe for a moment that theres a signed confession or anything oike that.


22. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by Stefani on Feb-6th-02 at 4:27 PM
In response to Message #21.

I want there to be a copy of Bridget's inquest testimony. Hell, make it the whole volume one, both Bridget's and Lizzie's. Since both are lost, it would be important to me to see it finally.

My other wish list for the Robinson File includes more police photographs of the scene of the crime. Autopsy photos as well.

I could be happy with these things!


23. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by augusta on Feb-7th-02 at 6:40 PM
In response to Message #22.

Dave - Right, there is no confession in the Robinson Files.  An interview of someone in the office who got to see them said that there is "no smoking gun" - he used those words. 

That would sure be great if Bridget's testimony were in there.  And more photos.  In those letters you are probably correct in there being, Dave, I'll bet there's lots of little gems in them.  I'd be happy with just more little things about the main characters.  Oh, how about a note or two Lizzie scribbled to her attorneys during the trial? 

If you read the Preliminary Hearing that has Jennings' notes pencilled in, you can pick up some crumbs from that.  (The notes that you can read his handwriting on.  Gee, you'd think he was a doctor.)


24. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by dave rehak on Feb-9th-02 at 12:39 AM
In response to Message #23.

Hey Stef, those photos exist, held at the FRHS, theyre just not published yet

Sherry: ya, it was Jefferey McCormack, a partner at the Robinson firm, who said "I'm not saying theres a smoking gun in there"

John C. Corrigan, who teaches at the law schools at Harvard and Roger Williams University in Bristol, Rhode Island, cleverly states, "At some point, the legitimate claims of history probably outweigh embarrassing somebody 100 years after her death." I couldnt have put it better!! Release those documents!!! Who wants to join me in a protest in front of the Robinson law building, waving signs as we chant in unison: "We've travelled many miles, now cough up those files!"

Well, okay, so my chant is kinda lame hehe. We'll think of a better one

(Message last edited Feb-9th-02  12:46 AM.)


25. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by rays on Feb-14th-02 at 4:35 PM
In response to Message #21.

So just what did Arthur S. Phillips write in his history of Fall River? He was the youngest of the defense team.
Certainly, assuming correctness, it should be as close to the truth as possible?


26. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by dave rehak on Feb-16th-02 at 3:29 PM
In response to Message #25.

Phillip's brief account is a bit biased for Lizzie, I find. Occasionally, he puts a very biased (or inaccurate) twist on something. The last third of Sullivan's book suffers from the same thing, if I recall correctly, only in his case its bias AGAINST Lizzie. R. Sullivan's research into Lizzie is much more substantial and miles ahead of Phillips in scholarly value, however.


27. "Re: Is it Possible?"
Posted by rays on Feb-17th-02 at 1:21 PM
In response to Message #26.

A S Phillips was in his 20s during the trial; his memory was like an eyewitness. The most famed and memorable thing in his life?
R Sullivan was close to death (?) and talked to a woman in her 80s (senility?). That's not a very reliable source, is it?


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