The Lizzie Borden Society archive

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1. "Lizzie and Emma's birth data"
Posted by Stefani on Jan-23rd-02 at 10:30 PM

From a site called Celebrity Astro, I found what purports to be the exact birth time of Emma and Lizzie. Emma born near midnight and Lizzie in the morning. Plus the longitude and latitude of Fall River. Any astrologers out there want to take a whack at doing a natal chart of the girls?

http://thenewage.com/resources/lore/astro_search.asp?orig=

Borden, Emma
Date: 1851 03 01
Time: 11:55:00 PM LMT
Place: Fall River, MA (Long: 071W10'00, Lat: 41N43'00)
Lizzie Bordon's sister.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Borden, Lizzie
Date: 1860 07 19
Time: 10:00:00 AM LMT
Place: Fall River, MA (Long: 071W10'00, Lat: 41N43'00)
Acquitted, but immortalized as murderess in poem.

Hi: I think I will contact Matrix and find out which among their wide variety of sources gave them the actual hour and minute times of the Borden sisters birth.  I have been trying to find that for some time and the government records don't have it, it didn't seem to be listed in anyone's family bible and so am very curious as to their source. Perhaps they had someone try to rectify the charts.  So, I set up their charts for noon which most people do who don't have the time.  Matrix is probably the leading seller of astrology programs, I have their WinStar program. Does anyone else know about this birth time they list, where they got it?

Hi:  This is the reply I got back from the Celebrity site:
Ms. Pederson:

"These names were drawn from many sources over the 25 years we have been in
business. I'm sorry, but we can no longer identify the source of this
specific data. I suggest that you visit Lois Rodden's Astrodatabank site.
She is THE source when it comes to such data.

Joe"

Then I checked the Lois Rodden Astrodatabank site and neither Lizzie nor Emma are listed in her directory.  She is the foremost collector of charts of famous people.  I am sceptical about the accuracy of the Celebrity site actual hour of birth for the sisters.  I wouldn't use it as the actual time unless I knew the real source. To make a chart your chart you have to know the "time", so even the noon chart I set up isn't really Lizzie's chart but it can give clues to disposition, etc. because the aspects are there, but the houses aren't neither is the moon accurate.  The birth data must be somewhere that is verifiable.  How about hearing from someone else on this?

Well, since you have a computer program, why not run the numbers for the times given and see what happens. If the program will also do interpretation (narrative) it might be interesting just to see what it does say.

I agree with you about not necessarily trusting that these times given are correct, but they could be. I don't have any such program on my computer, and have only done natal charts by hand (takes me hours and hours and hours). I would be interested in what you find. Perhaps we could put it on the web site once we figure out if the times are correct. Even so, we could site our source as that web page and go with it.

You also might consider putting your findings in Lizzie's Privy so that your hard work does not get used by those you do not authorize to do so.

(Message last edited Jan-24th-02  11:48 PM.)

Hi:  I applaud you for setting up charts by hand, that's the way I learned originally and it is a tedious job.  I am not a professional astrologer but a birth chart is a very personal thing and depends on date, place and time.  Without the time from a reliable source, such as government record, family record or otherwise I would not set up a chart and call it as belonging to anyone, it would be against my personal ethics.  It is the time that gives the ascendant, the house positions for the planets and the moon's correct position.  If I set up a chart for the time the Celebrity site gives, as it gives no source whatever, to me it wouldn't mean much as all the features need to be interrelated for the individual. It certainly wouldn't be Lizzie's chart.  However, if I did get a reliable source for time I would set up the chart and put it out for all to research in their own ways. Then I would feel free to be able to interpret the chart myself for the article I originally wanted to do.  It is now on hold until I find out the right time.  I did not buy one of the interpretation programs, I only have the WinStar.
 

Hi:  I applaud you for setting up charts by hand, that's the way I learned originally and it is a tedious job.  I am not a professional astrologer but a birth chart is a very personal thing and depends on date, place and time.  Without the time from a reliable source, such as government record, family record or otherwise I would not set up a chart and call it as belonging to anyone, it would be against my personal ethics.  It is the time that gives the ascendant, the house positions for the planets and the moon's correct position.  If I set up a chart for the time the Celebrity site gives, as it gives no source whatever, to me it wouldn't mean much as all the features need to be interrelated for the individual. It certainly wouldn't be Lizzie's chart.  However, if I did get a reliable source for time I would set up the chart and put it out for all to research in their own ways. Then I would feel free to be able to interpret the chart myself for the article I originally wanted to do.  It is now on hold until I find out the right time.  I did not buy one of the interpretation programs, I only have the WinStar.