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1. "Lizzie handwriting sample?"
Posted by Harry on Jan-17th-02 at 10:53 AM

Ran across this site which has a sample of Lizzie's handwriting for her burial instructions. Real?

http://www.handwriting.org/main/hwasmpD1.htm

(Message last edited Jan-17th-02  10:53 AM.)

Looks good to me Harry. Interesting item. I think it is Lizzie's handwriting. You know there is that site that sells her handwriting in font format so you can type your letters in Lizzie's handwriting. Now THAT is creepy!

The web address for that little item is:
http://www.killerfonts.com/main.html

and only 20 bucks!

I've never seen this before.  Does anyone know where it was published?  I can read pretty much all of the left side but can't make out all of the writing under her birth date on the right side.  Something about the minister, then the grave is to be _________(what?).

The 23rd Psalm is the "yea though I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death..." one.  John Chapter 14?  That deals with Jesus being the way to the Father ... "I go and prepare a place for you ..."  "I am the way, the truth, and the life..."  and the second half deals with the promise of the Holy Spirit:  "Whoever loves me will obey my teaching..."  "Peace is what I leave with you ..." and ends with "Come, let us go from this place."

I always wondered what they read at her burial!  And here we have her own actual orders!  This is really interesting.  I think it gives us another insight into her.  At first glance, I'd say it looks like she was quite a Christian woman - a serious believer.  I don't think you mess around at a time like that.

I make the whole thing out as follows:

My funeral to be strictly pri-
vate with a short prayer at
the grave.

At the house I wish read
"The Crossing of the Bar"
Also the 14th chapter of St. John
and the 23rd Psalm.
Also sung the first and fourth
verses of "My Ain Countrie"
& wish to be laid at my
fathers feet.

A small headstone to match
the others of my family
Lizbeth to be cut on the stone

Lizbeth Andrews (?)
with the date July 1861 (?)

The mininster of the Church
the Ascensenion is to conduct (?)
the services.

Grave to be bricked.

Lizbeth A. Borden

March 31 - 1919
Fall River

It may be a little cut off on the right side. I make the date as July 1861 and not as 1860.  Also Andrews and not Andrew. It is Andrews on the large family marker.  I would say it looks like the real thing.

It looks like the rest of the 0 of 1860 was cut off before the curvature started.
Stef, what do you say about those "T"'s that are crossed way off to the right, without touching the character?

BTW:  I was so mesmerized I forgot to THAnk YOU, Harry, once again!
PS:  you've got mail....

(Message last edited Jan-17th-02  11:20 PM.)

Sherry, I believe if I had killed the old folks, I would be EXTREMELY religious at the end too . Its called the fear of God.

I definitely agree with u that she did have some genuine religious feeling tho.

My question is in regards to the "Andrews". What does this mean? Is it that she changed her name or that this IS her name?

Since I am the repository for the LBQ's held in common, I was looking for the reference I remembered to "Andrews", and found 2 things:

1. LBQ, Jan., 1999, article by Paul Dennis Hoffman, pg.8, titled "Lizzie Borden's Middle Name" dicusses the possibility of women having their father or uncle's first name as middle name (Like Sarah "Anthony" Morse), as "a quaint New England or Fall River custom."...
The more interesting thing about this article, for now, this Thread, is that he states:
"...Victoria Lincoln simply mentioned that LIZZIE DECIDED WHAT WAS TO BE ON HER GRAVESTONE AND HOW HER NAME WOULD BE CARVED IN THE MAIN MONUMENT on the family plot.  She forsook her given name Lizzie for the more formal LIZBETH and had her middle name INSCRIBED "ANDREWS" which, stated Lincoln gave it a more dignified and therefore a more upper-class sound..."

-This  seems to signify that Lincoln knew of and had seen this document described here.
..................................

2. LBQ, July, 1999, another of those fascinating "Anonymous Letters From Hawaii", speculates (pg.3):
"...Sarah Anthony (Morse) Borden was Lizzie Andrews Borden's maternal(sic) mother.  Her father's name was Anthony Morse and his brother was George Morse who married Harriet ANDREWS.  Could it be possible that Sarah honored her uncle and aunt by using the ANDREWS name for her daughter's middle name?..."

-The letter continues with more inside relationship information if anyone cares to persue this in their copy.
-I believe this same corresondent wrote about the "exhumation of Abby's mother's body" that was supposedly re-buried in Oak Grove(Jan.,2000 issue).

Great find Harry. I don't recall seeing the burial instructions before, and if I did, I've forgotten them!

A few comments:"Lisbeth Andrews with the date July 1861"

I believe this was a slip of the pen on Lizzie's part. Apparently the stone cutter chiseled "Andrews" instead of "Andrew" into the monument after reading her instructions. As for the date, "July 1861" I believe she wrote "1860" but the copy was poorly reproduced.
Either that or another slip of the pen. I'm of the belief that she was well aware of her own birthday, and as further proof it was properly chiseled into stone.   I'm certain Lizzie had all of her marbles, even at that late date of March, 1919.  By the way, and apropos of absolutely nothing,Lizzie signed these burial instructions just two weeks after I was born (no applause, please).

One other point: she wrote "Grave to be bricked." Now what the heck does that mean? Did they "brick" graves to eliminate maintenance?
This shouldn't have been a problem because Lizzie arranged for
perpetual care for the gravesite of the Borden family..Any thoughts?

(Message last edited Jan-19th-02  3:49 PM.)

Hi Bill, thanks for joining us, great to have u.

By the way, i agree, who was the poor illiterate stone cutter on duty that day?

By the way, theres a rumor that Emma was losing her marbles near the end, but not Lizzie.

As for the brick thing, that has me stumped too.

Well, whatever it is, they still brick graves. It is extra:

http://www.oldham.gov.uk/local_govt/operational_services/Fees01.htm

Thanks William.

The "bricking" apparently applies to the vault the casket was placed in. I found these 2 sites in the U.K. which refer to bricking.

http://www.oldham.gov.uk/local_govt/operational_services/Fees01.htm

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/corpgen/new/cemetery.htm

I wonder who has the original of this document if it still exists.

(Message last edited Jan-19th-02  4:51 PM.)

Some questions come to mind when reading this document of Lizzies: It's dated 1919, some 8 years before her death.

Was she sick in 1919?  What would make a person think of something like that?  Was there a death of a close friend or relative that would even raise the subject?

The only thing I can think of is it was part of an early will she was drawing up.

In 1919 she would have been 59 years old. No sickness noted in any of my sources so far.

Found this in Rebello, p. 557, under "Land Transactions of Emma and Lizzie Borden - 1892-1927":
1919 - Oct. 17; Emma and Lizzie leased propert on the east side of South Main Street in Fall River to Samuel Robinson et al.
1919 - Dec. 31; Emma and Lizzie sold 28.32 rods on land on the east side of South Main Street in Fall River to Samuel Robinson et al.

I'll keep looking.

Checking Victoria Lincoln, A Private Disgrace, last page (317) all it says is:
"...The name of Lizzie Andrew Borden is not on it (the monument).  Even in death she preferred to be LISBETH of Maplecroft:  LISBETH ANDREWS Borden, with a final 's' to give the dignified sound of a family name."--not quite what was implied in the Hoffman article....
(This may seem out-of-context but I'm responding to my own post, # given)

Hello All:  I'm back again.  I asked the handwriting sample internet site people where they got this sample of Lizzie's handwriting and they wrote back they had had 5 inquiries lately and will ask around, since they didn't know, and come up with an answer probably in February.  This interests me because we need to know if it really was written by Lizzie.  I thought that somewhere in the perhaps Fall River Historical Society archives that there were a couple letters that Lizzie wrote that people kept. Maybe one of you who have access to technical equipment and these letters would be able to put one on this site so we could check the handwriting for similarities.  On the matter of what a t-cross means which is far to the right of the t-stem, one book I have (A Graphology Students Workbook, by Ruth Gardner, 1975 pg. 119) says "Cross to right--fast thinker,impulsive, perhaps easily irritated and on occasion, tackless."  Interesting that this t-cross to the right is consistent throughout the piece of writing. But we have to know IF it really is Lizzie's to see if such a description of character really relates to our Lizzie. And then check it against other written correspondence of her's throughout the years to see if this is a consistent pattern or if it appeared late in life.  Our handwriting changes over time as we change.  Interesting stuff.

Welcome to the club, Carol.  You're the 3rd person besides myself that I know of who wrote the handwriting site as to its authenticity.

We are keeping Mr. Crouch busy. 

Hey, Carol!
I was just thinking about you yesterday.
Anyway, if you go to the web-site there are 2 samples ready, one undated (Library card) and one dated, I think, 1900...Lizzie's letter to her neighbor about the noisy bird.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com
go to "Photos"
go to "Lizzie Miscellaneous"
GREAT! thanks!