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Lizzie Andrew Borden

 

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Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: The Lounge is bugging me

1. "The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-25th-02 at 9:49 PM

New idea: has anyone ever actually seen a picture of or read a paragraph about the "lounge" or sofa that Andrew was slain on?  We all know from crime scene photos that the lounge is off-center (to the left) of painting on the wall above it.  Now this arrangement of furniture has been bugging me for years.  I contend that the lounge was moved, albeit unintentionally, after A.J.'s body was discovered. I recall testimony from Dr. Bowen that he thought, "Mr. Borden's body appeared to be lower on the lounge then when" he first viewed the body prior to sending off the telegram. 

I cannot find anyone who can swear that the lounge was NOT centered before the murder nor can I find anyone who can swear that is WAS off-center before the murder.  While at the B & B this past weekend I conducted a photo experiment by moving the lounge directly centered to the painting.  This I believe is "politically-correct" for the Victorian era.

I have been in countless 18th and 19th century museums here in New England and I have noticed that in almost every room furniture on the floor is centered under any painting hanging over it.  It was indictive of the Victorian women of the house to have all things symetrical.  I could be wrong, but that darn lounge is bugging me.

Anyone have any input??  bc

BC


2. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Mar-25th-02 at 10:29 PM
In response to Message #1.

C'mon Kat & Stef, I believe this is one of yr "babies"!


3. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by Kat on Mar-26th-02 at 4:45 AM
In response to Message #2.

Research assistant and "Archival Memory" at your disposal!

BC, what she's refering to is my similar stance on that lounge placement, that started on another Board and it followed here.

I even begged the next person who went to the B&B to MOVE THAT D--- Couch under the picture, and take a photo of it, IN SYMETRY, just For me!  Just ONCE!

It's been said that the original couch was a little over 7' long, from arm to arm, and that it would not fit centered under the picture and still allow for FREE passage into/out of the kitchen.
BUT:  Why hang a picture first, then stick a lounge under it off-centered? (one theory...)

For a start, please see "ARCHIVES":
page 1..."THE DRESSER AND THE BED", by Harry, 12/25, which has PICTURES of the sofa...
page 1..."ANDREW'S COUCH", by Stefani, 1/8, which goes in to the couch placement somewhat.

I'm WITH YOU, BC!--kk


4. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by bobcook848 on Mar-27th-02 at 12:15 PM
In response to Message #3.

Well couch fans, I did move it and I did take pictures.  Once I learn how to use this scanner I shall post them.  I was disappointed in my camera technique however, I took four photos from across the room once I had moved the couch.  I didn't get a great one similar to the famous crime scene photo, as I had forgotten to "step back" before clicking.  Oh duh....in any event I have some reasonable color photos and will glady share them.

After my little experiment the day manager said she didn't think the couch would have been closer to the dining room because, "the other end would have blocked the kitchen door passage".  Well a large person such as myself or Abby might to squeeze through the width but it was done by the writer and not with a great deal of bumping into the couch or the corner of the mantle.

Further research of my own reveals that the kitchen door may have been closed at all times from the kitchen into/out of the sitting. The door opens 'into' the kitchen and 'away from' the sitting room.  In which case the door would never strike the couch.  With yet another door leading from the kitchen into the dining room (direcly at a 90 degree angle to the kitchen/sitting room door) and a second door in the dining room leading into the sitting room it may have been the custom of the inmates to pass through the dining room from the kitchen rather than the sitting room.

Though this seems a "long way around" remember that a bowl of fruit was most likely kept upon the dining room table as the inmates passed by they would help themselves.  Again I offer all this in the name of research and it is but one of my countless theories. 

Gosh I love this!!!  bc

BC


5. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by bobcook848 on Apr-2nd-02 at 10:17 PM
In response to Message #4.

Well I am still hung-up on this lounge/sofa thing. The more I look at the crime scene photo, the one everyone looks at in virtualy every book about the crime, the more I am convinced that that darned sofa was, until the day of the crime, centered to that darned painting hanging on the wall behind it!!!!!!!!

Now I know this may sound far-fetched but I really do think that when the police photographer came to the house that afternoon to shot the crime scene photos...SOMEONE MOVED THAT SOFA...towards the parlor.

This action causes the sofa to be off-centered of the wall and painting and if my eighth grade physics still holds Andrews shoes, being upon the carpet and the slickness of the horse-hair covering and the smoothness of his clothing caused his body to "slid" down on the sofa.

If you check Dr. Bowen's testimony at the Prelim. you will note (I am sorry I don't have the citation) that he is quoted as saying in response to the Questioner showing him Photograph #5 of the sitting room crime scene and being asked does he notice anything different about what he recalls having seen that day in comparasion to the photo he replies, that he notices the "body appears" to be further "down in the sofa". 

He remarks that the head is further down on the pillow then when he first entered the room the first time. 

Natural law will suggest that a dead body will "weigh" more although the physical weight does not actually change.  (Hence the expression "dead weight")  It is rather unlikely that Andrews body could have "gained" enough "dead weight" to have caused the body to "press further down into the sofa".

Now for some real spooky photo stuff...like so many of us we are all well aquainted with the "standard" photos "cropped" versions of the sitting room with sofa and A.J.'s body on the sofa.  I recently looked at the photo in Rebello page 97 and discovered something or rather someone new.

The same "uncropped" photo can be found in the photo array of Frank Speiring's "Lizzie" - HARDCOVER edition - you will find in either of these photos an extra person!!!

He is standing to the right of the photo at the doorway, maybe a detective?  Maybe a lawyer?  Photographers assistant?  I wonder who he is.  His image is solid to about the knee line then it fades to shadow.  When I first saw that man standing there I got the creeps.

Now some will argue that the sofa was nearer the dining room door because if the sofa were closer to the kitchen door it might impede foot traffic moving from the kitchen to the sitting or the opposite.

But here's the clincher on that...as I was reading E. Radin's book he quotes various persons who came into the kitchen via the back door and on Miss Lizzie's direction proceeded to the sitting room.  NOT BY WAY of the door DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THEM but rather BY WAY OF THE DINING ROOM TO THE SITTING ROOM.

Creepy number two!!  Why would someone walk the "long way around" via the dining room and not straight into the sitting room through the sitting room door.  That door is at the end of the stove where everyone was gathered to assist Lizzie.

I think I know why...because that sofa as closer to the sitting room side of the door to the kitchen and had always been as such and the inmates of house and consequently theirs guests were accustomed to traveling to the kitchen by way of the dining room.

Even Dr. Bowen in his testimony states the he went to examine Andrews body by walking into the dining room then into the sitting.  Dr. Bowen knew the floor plan, why didn't he just open the door on his left (before entering the dining room) and walk straight into the sitting room???  The why is in the above paragraph.

Yes I know it sounds roundabout but I genuinely think that Abby kept her sitting room in symmetrical, Victorian order, everything was centered to the walls.  That sofa was NEVER that close to the dining room door, NEVAH!!!

Look at those photos and see if you concur...this is spooky!!!

BC

(Message last edited Apr-2nd-02  10:21 PM.)


6. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by Kat on Apr-2nd-02 at 11:10 PM
In response to Message #5.

We also should take into account the *green baize door* aspect of the upper middle class.  Abby would not want the kitchen door used as direct access to the sitting room...too,too COMMON!
This way, by going through the dining room, one was *once removed* from the servant in the kitchen-
Also cooking odors would not permeate the house, if the kitchen door was kept shut, also the heat of the kitchen.....
Remember Abby even used a *bell*(!! )to summon Bridget to serve in the dining room, as if she were not merely a few feet away!


7. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by Tracie on Apr-3rd-02 at 8:30 AM
In response to Message #6.

Hi everyone,

I just began to read the trial transcripts thanks to Stefani and Dr. Bowen states about the sofa---"The sofa shows so it was out from the middle of the door here, and the head of the sofa was even with the door" (the casing of the door).  So the sofa/lounge was out of place when the photo were taken--different from Dr. B's first viewing of the body.

Also, when Dr. B says he thinks that Andy had sunk down, I think he meant that his body had slipped down not sunk into the sofa.

Just a few thoughts....Tracie


8. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by joe on Apr-3rd-02 at 10:10 AM
In response to Message #7.

I enhanced those 3 photos of AJ on the LAB website with Paint Shop Pro.  Does anybody but me see an indentation on the rug about 8-10 inches from the right front foot of the sofa?  My imagination maybe, but all 3 pix seem to have that indent.  If it is an indent, then the sofa was in that position and was moved.  Look just next to the Oriental rug.  Maybe there is a drag mark there, too.  I sure wish I could sharpen the detail more, but there are too many shadows.  That's why some more opinions are necessary.  Image enhancers needed!
joe


9. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Apr-3rd-02 at 11:06 AM
In response to Message #8.

Bob C. - yes, it is exciting the first time you see that uncropped photo and spot the half-exposed (photographically speaking!) cop (so Faye thinks - she's done a lot of work trying to find out which of the players that might be - she says she can see stripes on his jacket).  You're in for another surprise when you see the uncropped "Abby next to the bed" shot - there's someone - this time, maybe the photographer's assistant! - actually sitting on the guest room bed.  While we're on the subject, in the "Abby, profile minus the bed" shot you can see the camera and what looks like part of the photographer in the bureau mirror.

I'm wondering if we're giving the couch too much thought (which is not to say stop discussing it!).  If it was moved that day, my feeling is that it was during the examination of Andrew's body - and, yes, it may be responsible for Andrew's slumping off the arm of the chair, and maybe even the position of his feet.  Remember that these police photos are far from pristine images of the bodies as they were first discovered.  There's even a doctor's testimony noting that a folding camp chair, spattered with blood, was originally against the wall at Abby's head (you can just spot the legs of it, against the opposite wall, where it was moved, in the uncropped and unretouched side photo), and that Abby's arms were splayed out above her, and not at her side.  They just didn't know what we know these days, that uncontaminated crimes scenes can help trap a killer.  All they knew was cold is cold, warm is warm, dead is dead.  It doesn't help our cause that any "prominent" citizens were allowed to come in and have a look-see and a feel, as well.  We're certain to go a little "buggy" if we insist on holding these pix to a standard to which they cannot possibly measure up.   


10. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by joe on Apr-3rd-02 at 11:08 AM
In response to Message #8.

I see the person at the right of the picture, too, BC.  Pretty spooky, indeed!  Hard to make out a face, though.
Joe


11. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by Kat on Apr-3rd-02 at 10:40 PM
In response to Message #8.

Hey, Joe!
That "indentation" is repeated in the pattern of the carpet if you look all around the floor.  Tend, now, to think it's part of the weave, though why weave a regularly spaced small rectangular pattern into a floral rug is beyond me!


12. "Re: The Lounge is bugging me"
Posted by bobcook848 on Apr-4th-02 at 8:53 AM
In response to Message #11.

After a day or two of thinking about all this "sofa" business I guess the point I am driving towards is this:  I believe that Andrew WAS NOT "napping" on that sofa, I believe he in a normal upright position having a discussion or heated debate with his assailant.

At some point Lizzie, who was in the dining room ironing her hankies, felt that the conversation was getting too strong from her feminine ears.  She then exited the house and made that infamous "20 minute but not more than 30 minute" visit to the barn.  Not that she truely needed "sinkers" but the heated debate in the sitting room was making her very, very nervous.

Whilst she is at the barn whomever had Andrews attention had hit the boiling point and the rest is history.  But herein lies the puzzler who was this "unknown"?  Male or female, Uncle John or Bridget?  After reading Radin this past week I like his tri-theorum at the end of the book.

Motives?  Well that's anyone's guess.  Uncle may have had already gotten his "share" in farms and horses.  Bridget may have simply been p.o.'d and couldn't take it anymore.  Bridget may have already whacked poor Abbey and decided to do the next in line. 

Rationale?  Maybe she and Lizzie were in cahoots and Lizzie agreed to take the fall on a very wild hunch that not having any blood on her person and being the daughter/step-daughter things would fall the way they did.  Who knows for certain.

So "sofa fans" I continue to ramble on about that darned sofa and Kat you're very correct, I believe, Abbey would not have wanted the kitchen door opened for your reasons stated. 

BC



 

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