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Lizzie Andrew Borden


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Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: Muriel Arnold-The Hands of Time

1. "Muriel Arnold-The Hands of Time"
Posted by Kat on Feb-4th-02 at 6:02 AM

I checked the citations for Mrs. Mary Livermore in Rebello, and there are many...but none designate this interview specifically.  It seems she was much in the newspapers, regarding / defending Lizzie to the public.
Muriel Arnold (pg.s 172 & 183) apparently quotes from some interview with Mrs. Livermore:

"Mrs. Mary Livermore, abolistionist, suffragist, temperance worker and former friend of the late Sarah Borden, told reporters that Lizzie had written to her saying she had never knowingly harmed any human being and HANDS WERE STRETCHED OUT AGAINST HER IN HER OWN HOME THAT SHE HAD DONE FAVORS FOR IN THE PAST."

-the thrust of this book is that Bridget DID IT, and was blackmailing Morse...

"Mrs. Livermore said 'I think Lizzie has friends enough to stand by her and support her, so the effect upon her will not be so terrible.  I THINK EMMA WILL SUFFER THE MOST, and the longest.  She will be HURT BY IT FOREVER.  Lizzie will recover from the accusation sooner."

--this seems pretty knowledgeable of the girls differing characters.
--if anyone knows the source of this interview, please post..

2. "Re: Muriel Arnold-The Hands of Time"
Posted by augusta on Feb-4th-02 at 10:15 AM
In response to Message #1.

I don't know the source of that interesting interview you posted, Kat.  However I have some thoughts/questions about Mrs. Livermore.

* That interview Lizzie does in "The Legend of Lizzie Borden", where the actor is the guy who played Dr. Bellows in "I Dream of Jeannie" - I think he's supposed to be Julian Ralph (?).  I have since read that that interview was actually conducted by Mary Livermore.  Does anyone know if it's true and can site a source?

* In that photo that came to light in the recent past that shows someone who looks like Lizzie in the group, but many think it isn't her?  I think one of the ladies in the front looks a lot like Mary Livermore.  What do you guys think?

* Is there any more information out there about M. Livermore and Sarah Morse Borden's friendship?  It was supposed to be quite close, wasn't it?  Any crumbs at all would be appreciated, since all I've read is just that "they were friends".

3. "Re: Muriel Arnold-The Hands of Time"
Posted by dave rehak on Feb-4th-02 at 2:26 PM
In response to Message #2.

Great topic, girls.

I cant think of any "hands that were stretched out against her [Lizzie] in her own home", so I dont know why Lizzie would write that to Livermore. Morse was on record in the newspapers as pointing to a non-Lizzie suspect. I dont know of Morse ever even theorizing that Lizzie did it.

Ya, Mary Livermore was probably Lizzie's most vocal supporter, along with the two ministers, the Holmes, and Mrs Brigham. Mary Livermore remained a close friend to Lizzie for a long time after the trial and always remained adament about believing Lizzie innocent. The same can be said for Robinson.

Hey Kat, Livermore's remark about Emma seems pri-ty prophetic when u think about the rift between the sisters a decade after the murders. I dont think Emma really got over her dislike of Lizzie's notoriety, and felt she had to escape it and live a REALLY quiet, secret life where few people would know she was Lizzie's sister. Of course, I think Nance and the coachman Terault had much to do with her leaving Lizzie--the last straw. Just my opinion, based on a so-called reliable source.

Sorry Sherry, I dont know the particulars of the friendship between Sarah Borden and Mary Livermore.

Livermore was a very fascinating figure. She was the only woman reporter at Lincoln's nomination and had a key role in American suffrege and abolition. She was also one of the leaders of the WCTU, of which Lizzie was a member. Lizzie was personally visited by her in Taunton jail and received her sympathy and condolences. Some of the press mocked at this and questioned whether she was over-empathizing with Lizzie and forgetting about the victims, who they reminded their readers may very well have been murdered by Lizzie. (see The Providence Journal of Sunday, June 25, 1893).

4. "Re: Muriel Arnold-The Hands of Time"
Posted by Kat on Feb-4th-02 at 9:52 PM
In response to Message #2.

Here I have Hoffman's "Yesterday In Old Fall River'. page 210:

"Livermore, Mary Ashton Rice (1820- 1905)
Mary A. Livermore was a popular author of books and magazine articles.  She was also a close friend of Sarah Borden, the first wife of Andrew and the mother of Lizzie.  Mary Livermore received permission to interview Lizzie as she awaited trial in the Taunton jail after her preliminary hearing.  She reported that Lizzie was feeling well and was not at all depressed.  Livermore gives the details of her interview to fellow writewr Amy Robsart, who wrote the story for the newspaper publication.

Mary A. Livermore was born to Timothy and Zebiah Vose Glover (Ashton) Rice in Boston and was educated first in New York and then at Miss Martha Whiting's Female Seminary in Charlestown, Massachusetts.  She graduated from Miss Whiting's in 1836 and taught there for two years.  She then relocated to Virginia where she was employed as a tutor.

She was repulsed by the southern institution of slavery and soon moved back up north to Duxbury, Mass., and married David Parker Livermore, a minister, in 1845.  She traveled with her husband to various Universalist churches in New England, including Fall River.  She later relocated to Chicago and became a noted writer and lecturer during the Civil war, speaking out against slavery and for women's suffrage.

Livermore returned to Boston in 1869 as editor of the magazine 'Women's Journal'.  She also authored a popular book on the Civil War in 1888.  Readers purchased 60,000 copies of her autobiography, published in 1897, making it a best seller.  Livermore retired from the lecture circuit in 1895 and died in Melrose, Mass., at the age of 85."

--I had forgotten to check this reference till I heard from Augusta & Dave.
--BTW:  Augusta:  M.A. Livermore shares your daughter's birthday.
--Says Livermore conducted jail interview with Lizzie.  Would this be in the Sourcebook, or in Did She Or Didn't She? which cover newspaper articles?
--What kind of person was SARAH BORDEN, to be a friend of such a free thinker?  And HOW would ANDREW handle such a friendship?????

5. "Re: Muriel Arnold-The Hands of Time"
Posted by william on Feb-5th-02 at 11:10 AM
In response to Message #2.

Partial excerpt from "Victorian Vistas" Vol.2, page 371; BOSTON, Nov.1,(1892) Journal:

"- - in a very interesting interview with Mrs. Mary A.Livermore, that lady stated from a long and intimate acquaintance with Lizzie Borden's mother, dating from her marriage to Andrew J. Borden, the girl's father, she had never known of the slightest indication of insanity on her part, nor of anything of the kind in the family.
It is also definitely established that there was never the slightest trace of insanity in Mr. Borden's family, other than the single case of the old gentlemen's brother's wife, between whom and Lizzie there were no ties of blood.  Mrs. Livermore knew both the Borden sisters from their childhood, and has never seen, she said, any indications of any lack of mental balance." (Boston Journal, December 1, 1892)

6. "Livermore"
Posted by Kat on Feb-5th-02 at 10:50 PM
In response to Message #5.

Thanks for that, William.
It seems to almost imply that Livermore(s) knew Andrew first, and then became fast friends with Sarah Borden.
Maybe it was a Church connection--there's probably a difference though in Mr. Livermore's denomination of 'Universalist' and Andrew's 'Congregationalist'.
I checked Rebello to see who *married* them, and it was Rev. (Samuel) Washburn (pg.6).
I also checked proximity in my atlas, but Duxbury is way up by Plymouth, quite a ways from Somerset, which I believe is where Sarah was born. (?).
They may have met whilst the Livermores were traveling...
Also, Mary may have changed, evolved over the years, as she traveled, so that the friend she was while Sarah was alive, could be a diiferent personality after 1863, the year of Sarah's death.
If she really was such a good friend of the FAMILY (to be questioned in that 'sanity survey') then I wonder how much influence Mrs. Livermore had on Lizzie growing up, after her mother was gone.
I had the impression, previously, that Lizzie's 'emancipated female' friends / supporters were mostly from Trial times.
Maybe Mrs. Livermore exerted more thought-provoking power over the formation of Lizzie's character than has been otherwise noted.
Maybe 'AUGUSTA' will find some* Lizzie Letters* from That quarter!

7. "Re: Livermore"
Posted by Kat on Feb-6th-02 at 11:34 PM
In response to Message #6.

Reballo, pg.169, headlines:

"Mrs. Livermore's Opinion / She Thinks Lizzie Borden Innocent and Tells Why." New York times, Sunday, Sept.4, 1892: 5 col. 3"

"Mrs. Livermore Denounces Jadge Blaisedell for Doing What He Felt Was His Duty," Fall River Herald News, Wednesday, Sept., 7, 1892: 7"

"Indignant Women, Think Lizzie Borden's Imprisionment An Outrage / Want Her Released on Bonds / They Will Petition the Governor Asking Him to Interfere in the Case / Mrs. Livermore Interviewed," New Bedford Mercury, Wednesday, Sept., 7, 1892: 2"

"Lizzie Borden Talks to Newspaper Reporter But Fails to Tell Much That is New in Relation to the Awful Crime with Which She is Charged," Fall River Daily Globe, Thursday, Sept., 8, 1892: 7"

"The Borden Case / Why Mrs. Livermore's Plaint Was Wrong," Taunton Dailey Gazette, Wednesday, Sept., 28, 1892: 4"
-"Mrs. Livermore complained bitterly of Lizzie's treatment while in the Taunton jail.  The article responded to many of the issues raised by Mrs. Livermore.  Lizzie's life in prison was well described by the author of the article and contrary to that of Mrs. Livermore's charges."

--Sounds like Lizzie lucked out, and her cause taken up by an advocate and agitator--a father figure, mother, sister, friend, godparent, all rolled into one noisy, noticable supporter!

Posted by Kat on Feb-7th-02 at 6:53 AM
In response to Message #7.

Pretty Interesting Character.
No site mentions her association with Lizzie, though.  After all I've read about Mary Rice Livermore tonight, I'd say her advocacy of Lizzie was sordid in comparison to the great things she did accomplish.
-has a good picture
-has a good article

Posted by augusta on Feb-7th-02 at 6:56 PM
In response to Message #8.

What good posts!  Thanks, William.  I hadn't read that before.  It is very interesting to know when Sarah Borden became friends with her.  I would think that there was a time when Mary L. lived near Sarah, then, around the year the Bordens were married.  I'm itching to find out more about that relationship.  I read recently that Mary L. was in the courtroom when Lizzie was acquitted and was one to congratulate her. 

Posted by Kat on Feb-7th-02 at 8:04 PM
In response to Message #9.

Apparently the Livermores moved to Fall River and lived there the year 1845-1846, where Daniel was "stationed".  This is also the year of Andrew's marriage to Abby, Dec., 1845.
BUT, the Livermores moved a LOT, therefore the friendship would, of necessity, have had to survive by Post.

I wonder if Lizzie or the Bordens are mentioned in her Autobiography:  The Story Of My Life, written in 1897?

On one website, Livermore's book on The Story of the War, was available for sale...

Posted by william on Feb-8th-02 at 10:10 AM
In response to Message #10.


I read the "Story of My Life" by Livermore some years ago.  I don't own the book.  The library had to conduct a search to get me a "loner."

If memory serves me, and it's not too good a servant these days, there was no mention of the Borden family in the book.


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