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1. "Why no "thud" was heard"
Posted by bobcook848 on Apr-4th-02 at 9:00 AM

Well yet another theory from yours truly.  While watching a video production of one of many re-creations of the crime on that fateful night at the B & B, I was intrigued to see that the character of Abby was shown as being the kneeling position while cleaning the bedroom.

The actress was knelt between the bed and bureau dusting the lower rails of bed and the front of the bureau drawers when the hatchet hit the fan, er head.  As the re-creation shows, in this particular video, Abby simplies falls forward at half or less of her height.

Being a "full figured" lady she simply "rolled" forward face down.  I think her physical position, being knelt down, accounted for the absence of any obvious "thud".  Of course the "only persons in the house at the time" being Lizzie and/or Bridget or both would tend to satisfy that "no one heard any noise or thud".

Just another perspective to think about....

BC

I think that Abby being as large as described would probably be heavy on her feet.  Talk about her feet, did anyone notice how large her feet appeared in the photos?  Lots of banging around the house, but I like the idea of her on her hands and knees dusting.

Tracie

My wife and I live upstairs in a solidly contructed 1920s vintage two family house of similar size, shape, and dimensions, though somewhat different room arrangement, to the Borden house. I am confident that the sound or thud of a 200 pound adult falling "deadweight" to the floor of my living room (which in my floorplan corresponds to the Borden guest room), from a standing position, would be heard on both the first and second floors of my house, in the attic, and most likely in the cellar. I am not so sure such a sound would be heard by someone standing outside unless the air was still and the person outside was right next to the house and under my open side living room window which corresponds to the side window of the Borden guest room. If Lizzie struck Abby while Abby was standing in the guest room and Bridget was elsewhere inside the Second St. house I think it is likely that Bridget heard the sound of Abby hitting the floor. If Bridget was outside I think it is very possible that she heard nothing. If Abby was kneeling when she was struck and only fell "halfway" to the floor I think the noise might have been heard on the second floor of the house in the immediate vicinity of the guest room and perhaps in the parlor below, but not necessarily noticed elsewhere in the house, and probably would not have been heard outside at all.

If Lizzie killed Abby and Bridget was inside the house at that moment then Bridget might well have heard something. If Bridget killed Abby and Lizzie was inside the house at that moment then Lizzie might well have heard something. If someone from outside the household came in and killed Abby and both Lizzie and Bridget were inside the house at the time then both of them may well have heard something. If they were both outside the house then very possibly neither of them heard anything at all. We know Bridget went outside to wash windows sometime after 9 AM and Lizzie says she, Lizzie, was inside the house doing various domestic chores both downstairs and upstairs until going outdoors to the side yard and barn after her father came home (and where Lizzie was very possibly seen by Hyman Lubinsky as he drove past in his wagon) and probably well after Abby died.

At least one of these two people, Lizzie and Bridget, did not tell the whole truth as they knew it to be about what went on that morning. Who and why?

Wasn't there a blow that was apparently given to Abby as she faced the assailant, resulting a flap of skin loose over one ear?  This would be hard to accomplish if Abby was already facing away from the killer, towards the floor.  And, even if Abby only slumped forward, the noise of eighteen blows to a head resting upon even a carpeted floor must've been something. 

If Abby was kneeling, fixing the bed, or putting away something in the lower bureau drawer, was spoken to, or heard or sensed someone coming up behind her, she would naturally TURN and look UP.  Then the *flap wound* blow,--she turns away with her hands to her head, and falls on her face with her hands still in that position when first found.
The second blow has been surmised to be the shoulder blow, "that knocked the wind from her lungs" so she made no groan or scream...These (first two?) blows show the work of AN AMATURE...I think...

I think that scenario sounds true (Kat's last msg).
If Lizzie was down in the WC, that's two floors down and across to the back, not the front. Don't forget the noise from the street, a main thorofare. "Clip-clop" of horses, rumble of wagons, noise from the stone masons, etc.
I believe Lizzie heard nothing unusual, like many others on the throne, or throwing up?

(Message last edited Apr-5th-02  12:14 PM.)

I don't know that that flap could've been made with Abby looking over her shoulder - she'd have had to turn her head around like Linda Blair (or, like Abby in John Douglas' book!) to receive that kind of a wound, I think.  Anyway, I also think it would be a worthwhile experiment to have someone chop away at something skull-like in the guest room, in the spot where Abby was found, to see where/if the sounds can be heard next door/downstairs...

If Abbey were knelt and somewhat facing the wall ahead of her whilst the assailant entered the room and let us suppose that the assailant is someone she knows, say Bridget or Uncle John, and as the assailant approaches her from behind she would most likely turn to her right so see how close the person was approaching and WHACK!!!.

Result: the "flap wound", whereupon she is most certainly dazed and speechless as the second blow strikes her head perhaps over the right ear.  With two blows delivered in close order she is rendered unconscious and literally feels nothing.

The assailant continues the hacking until she is dead then flees the scene, maybe to the third floor to cleanup for act II....

Her (Abby) low center of gravity, from the kneeling position, eliminates or minimizes body sounds when falling forward.  Recall in testimony that the first person to actually view the body (Dr. Bowen) without moving the body stated that the arms were somewhat under her torso.  Later the arms had been repositioned when the detectives began to investigate.



BC

I thought upon first finding, the body of Abby had her arms bent at the elbow with her hands not quite circling her head.  I drew a picture of it in my Prlim. for easier reference.  AFTER the body was turned, the arms ended up around chest level.  [EDIT HERE:  Prelim., pg.116: Dolan:  "...more extended over the head, as it were, not over it, but around the head.")

IF Abby turned her whole torso, to better see what her eyes could not believe, she would practically be facing the assailant.  Her head would be closer to the window area where blood was found, and if the very next QUICK SWING found her falling foreward, her head no longer in it's original position the next blow would be the *missed* blow of the shoulder, as her head is now necessarilly farther away than it was during the initial attack.  This may make the assasin actually stumble foreward as well to complete the killing.  Then a knee could have come down on Abby's back, and that explains the so-called lack of room for the assailant to stand in whilst doing the deed--not much room, between the body and the bed...
This also may explain why Abby's apron looks so TWISTED at her waist in the photo (side-view).

Abby's "flap-wound", Prelim., pg.103 &144. (She would be turning toward the mirror/window area, I believe, to receive that left sided blow.  Maybe she saw the person in the mirror at the last second and turned...)

(Message last edited Apr-6th-02  3:02 AM.)

Kat I am sure you're very correct on this...I was trying to recall the particulars of her body position and the location of the flap from a crusty-rusty memory...mine.  I have many reference books in my own collection now but I can't recall in which book I read the notation of the position of her arms *before* she was moved.

In any event I theorize that she was in the kneeling position at the moment her asassin delivered the first blow. 

BC

Bob G:  The only "skull-like thing" I can think  to practice our chopping on is a coconut...


(Message last edited Apr-7th-02  5:24 AM.)

It would be messy (use plastic sheets over everything), but buying a cow or pig's head from your local slaughterhouse would allow someone with a strong right arm and well practiced to hack away with a razor sharp hatchet. I'll bet its not so easy as it reads here!!!

And the blood spatter from a living mammal?

Not too sure, but I think the Massachusetts S.P.C.A. would be on your tail feathers in heartbeat...pun intended.  Though it would be a very interesting experiment to conduct.  Of course there is always the age old stand by: "anyone from the front row, please?"

BC

BC...the vaudeville act.


Ray, that's really bloodthirsty -(I don't mean YOU, but the ALLUSION!)


We here in Florida think more like coconuts.....




(Message last edited Apr-8th-02  12:34 AM.)

Kat: many of us here in Hatchetchusetts think like cocoanuts

is that the same...

BC

No way (I hope for MA residents) could anyone other than PETA object to cutting up a dead animal for food.
Does anyone here know a butcher? Ask any hunter about the effect of time (40-45 minutes) on the clotting of blood.

Perhaps when the flap wound was made, Abby was at the foot of the bed, she may have staggered back against the bed and reeled away to the corner she was found in.  Maybe she slid down the side of the bed onto the floor and therefore didn't crash or thud.  I don't know, but, I almost get the feeling that her body was moved.  Look at her position on the floor, its almost TOO perfect.  Legs together, skirts down.  Maybe Dr. Bowen, out of respect to his late neighbor, in this day of social mores, rearranged her.  She may have fallen with her legs at odd angles and her skirts all up and disarranged with, heavens forbid, her lower limbs showing!  If she did fall as the position of her body would indicate, it was like a tree, timber, straight to the ground.  I believe she would have made a tremendous crash!  And if Lizzie didn't do it, she most certainly heard when Abby went down.

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  11:23 PM.)

Very ingenious - still, as Susan says above, and I'm fond of repeating until blood comes out of your ears, we can't really use the photos as we would pix from an uncontaminated crime scene.  Most certainly the victims were moved - there's a doctor's testimony that Abby's arms were above her head when she was first found.  Therefore, David, while I think you make a very persuasive argument for many of your points, I feel (my opinion, only) is that careful study of the photographs as to direction of fabric, etc., is not persuasive evidence in any sense since the bodies were examined, turned over, and possibly repostioned.

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  11:25 PM.)

I'm sorry, David.  I didn't mean to hit such a hot button topic!  All I meant to suggest were possibilities as to why a thud or crash wasn't heard; the fall on the bed, slide to the floor.  Or if she fell as the photo implies, which is like a tree, straight to the floor, she definetly crashed!  Which only means that Lizzie either did it or knew about it. 

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  11:26 PM.)

I think a lot of your supposition about the attack on Abby is very likely.  I had no sinister reason to pull Susan in - I was moving from her writing about the idea that the doctors may have, for decency's sake, covered Abby's legs - something that would never be allowed today at a crime scene - to my own belief, based on years of reading, that the photos do not show the victims exactly as found.  If that was unclear, I apologize.

So, then, to restate - I believe that to rely on "evidence" that we will never be able to really gauge the accuracy of to produce a definitive version or even a highly likely version of events must always include the realization that, with the evidence as it now stands, we can only theorize and guess.

As a long-time student of the case, I admire your passion - but maybe, this time, you should take a chill pill, Will.   I'm not the enemy!  You can check with the administrator of this august site if you don't get that. 

Amen to that, if there is to be any ax or hatchet swinging, let Lizzie do it! 

Unless you were there as an eyewitness, how can ANYONE claim that the body was moved or adjusted? Surely you must realize this?

With the noise from the horses and wagons and street traffic outside, and if Lizzie was down in the basement WC (or kitchen), she would not have heard a thump, or paid any attention to it.
Wasn't there some masons or carpenter just to the back of the house? Would that noise mask any thump?

With the noise from the horses and wagons and street traffic outside, and if Lizzie was down in the basement WC (or kitchen), she would not have heard a thump, or paid any attention to it.
Wasn't there some masons or carpenter just to the back of the house? Would that noise mask any thump?

I tried a little experiment after work today at a girlfriend's house, she and her husband own a house that was built in 1900, with hardwood floors under carpeting in some areas(like the bedrooms).  I asked her to go to the basement and wait until I called her.  I went to the second floor, into one of the bedrooms and proceeded to fall straight down, face forward to the floor.  I only caught myself at the last minute and my wrists are killing me for doing this!  When I called her to come up she wanted to know what the hell I was doing, what was that NOISE?  Now, I stand 5'9" and weigh 128 lbs, not Abby's 5'4" and weighing 200 lbs.  She had said that it was a muffled thud, but, that the walls in the basement rattled, so I guess it traveled downward.  And mind you too, there were cars going by, the constant hum of the refridgerator and such. 

I tried it again a few more times with her in different parts of the house on different floors, she knew I was up to something now though, but, she heard me fall more clearly these times.

The next part of the experiment was to don two long, light cotton summer skirts and tried falling again, most often the material foofed up on one leg or the other to about midcalf. 

I then tried doing it from a kneeling position and as the rest of the ladies on this board know, you have to hike the front of the skirt up or your kneeling on it pulls at the waistband and you can't move very well.  I fell forward a few more times, the skirts in back stayed down, but, they were rucked up in the front.  My feet tended to settle further apart then Abby's were in the photo and I seemed to go more to one side or the other than straight down.

While none of this PROVES ANYTHING, it was interesting to try and see what results I came up with and here it all is.  Sorry for the novel! 

You have a Brave Heart!
You certainly put your money where your mouth is!
Please don't hurt yourself for Us or Lizzie!.....kk

Thanks Kat!  Brave Heart, hunh?  Like Mel Gibson?    Since I was young, my twin brother and I have ALWAYS been inquisitive about things, what made them work or tick.  We both took apart my mom's vacuum cleaner at the tender age of 3 1/2.  Needless to say, mom was not pleased, but, we did put it back together and there were no extra parts and it worked fine.

So, bottom line was that I wanted to see what would happen if I tried to fall as Abby possibly did.  I guess to really test this out, we would need a woman of Abby's height and girth and go to the Lizzie Borden B & B and try this experiment again.

P.S.  My wrists are still a little sore, but, I guess like anything, no pain, no gain. 

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  11:27 PM.)

Did 5 ft 210 lb Abby have a big stomach? Would this cushion the fall?
Was it then as noisy as it is today? Noisier with horses and carriages then? Would the noise from the stone mason or carpenters next door have masked the noise?

Also, in 1892 the house was only about 50 years old. Since it still stands today, the granite block foundation with post and beam construction certainly held up over 160 years. They didn't use baloon frame construction until after the 1860s.

They say this is still used by the Amish for their barn (and home?) construction. No nails, just green wood and dried dowel; when the green wood dries and contracts, it grips the dowels firmly.

Rays, it is very possible that the noise from the surroundings would mask the noise of Abby falling, from outside the house and to apoint inside also.  But, I would think, that despite the different construction of the house, you would still feel the jar that a 210 lb, dead weight(no pun intended) falling to the floor would make.

I would assume that the noise from the stone masons yard was probably alot of clinking and chinking of the metal tools on stone.  I took a sculpture course in college and thats pretty much the noises that you make chipping away at marble or stone.

As to Abby having a big stomach, yes, I would think that she did given her weight.  That and her possibly large breasts would cushion her body to a point, but, then you have the hip bones to deal with and her head hitting the floor, hard enough to cause bruising on her face.

But, this is all my assumptions.  You saw my experiment post that I did and I tried to do it as scientifically controlled as I could.  I went into it with an open mind, whatever the turnout of my findings would be just that.  I guess one other way to try this would be to use a big sack, filled until it weighed 210 lbs and let it drop on a carpeted floor from about 5 feet.  I'm not strong enough to attempt this.  Maybe there is one of the guys out there that can give it a try and get back to us?  Anyway, sorry for the novel! 

This may not be germane but I live in a solidly built Cement block ranch-style house...and I can hear the footsteps of a squirrel that has gotten into my attic.

BTW:  Knowlton Papers has heights of the victims at autopsy:

Pg. 10--Andrew 5'11"
Pg. 15--Abby      5'3"

Thanks, Kat!  I had Abby posted as 5'4", I knew it was somewhere around there.  My understanding is that any framed structure, whether it is a wood frame, wood baloon frame or steel girder construction, is for it to transfer the upper weight of the building down to the foundation.  And with that, I would tend to think that any vibration caused at upper levels would travel down the framing structure.  Just my two cents worth. 

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  11:28 PM.)

Yes, please!  If someone has the strength and wherewithall to do this, please give the experiment a try!  If I had a boyfriend at the moment I'd put him to work on this! 

Were Abby's arms spread out in front of her head? (My memory.) Then is is possible she stuck out her hands to cushion the fall? Could Abby have stiffened after the first blow?

I wonder if anyone here has the background to determine this.

Rays, have found this in Trial Volume 1, pgs. 309/329  Questioning of Dr. Bowen.

Q. Will you look at the photograph marked Ex.16, where the bed is drawn away, and tell us in what respect the position of Mrs. Borden differs in that photograph, if it differs at all?

A. I think her arms were a little lower down than are represented her,---slighly lower, below the breast.

Q. About how much lower?

A. Six inches, I should say.

Q. They were lower at the time, or lower in the photograph.

A. Lower at the time.


And if you will check that particular photo of Abby, her arms are down beneath her chest and not over her head.  If she were dead before she hit the floor, I believe that her arms would have just fallen every which way.  So, it is my supposition that she did indeed try to catch herself.  The bruising on her face may have come from the original fall or possibly, once down on the floor, from the hatchet hitting the back of her head may have driven her brow against the floor.  She may have been trying to get up when hit?

Plus another little tidbit of information, the human head weighs about 8 to 10 pounds on its own.  That alone striking the floor from 5'3" could still make quite a thump.

And I don't know that this testing will prove anything, but, that if Abby did fall to the floor as supposed, would it make enough noise or cause such a jarring as to be noticed by the casual observer.  We can conjecture as much as we would like about it, but, until we have some sort of an idea of the amount of disruption caused, we don't have a very sturdy foundation to build anything on.  I'm just trying to bring an element of fun science into the fray. 

This contradicts Dr. Dolan's view of Abby, who came later.

PRELIM., pg. 404, Dr. Bowen:
Q: Now I would like to have you describe the position of the hands and the body at that time, when you first saw it.
A: Mrs. Borden was lying on her face, squarely on her face, perfectly straight, so far as her legs were concerned, perfectly straight and square on her face, as near as I can remember.  Her arms were folded or---
Q: Give an illustration with yours.
(Witness shows with his arms.)
Q: Pointing how, abreast, or below the line of the arm pits?
A: Yes Sir.
Q: Were they up like this, over the head?
A: No Sir.
Q: Are you positive about that?
A: I am positive of that.
------------------------------
Q: Did you disturb any of the limbs, or anything, did you move them at all?
A: No Sir, I do not think I did.
Q: Do you know how they got to be in this position where they got to be subsequently?
A: No, I do not know.
Q: Have you any idea about it?
A: She must have been moved.


--Dr. Dolan, pg. 88, says he arrived at the house about 11:45 a.m.
--pg. 101, he describes Abby's body:
"A: You could not see any part of the face.  The arms were thrown, as it were, prone around the face.  All that was exposed was the right half of the back of the head."
--then he turned the body (102)
--pg. 120 he says he did not lift the body at that time, it was the second time he was with her.
--At some point, with Dr. Dolan were Dr. Bowen, Dr. Tourtellotte, Dr. Hardy, Doherty, and Morse, all in the room. (pg. 115 & 120)
--pg. 116 Dolan reiterates the "arms more extended over the head, as it were, not over it, but around her head."

If Abby started out with her arms at chest level, turning her over would not leave her arms HIGHER up, but LOWER down, unless deliberately put there...

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!
Falling face forward with your hands extended can break one or both of your wrists! Even if your under 35 or so.

The quotes about her hands "under her body" or "over her head" (the picture) do show how eye witnesses can have different testimonies from different times and points of view.

No thud could be heard if there were other noises from the street, or from the back of the house. Don't others have experiences of not noticing noises at home that visitors do?

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  11:29 PM.)

Delving into the thud topic might not give us the name of the killer but it might shed some light on the manner in which the killer thought on that morning around 9:30 or so in the Borden house so I feel it is a useful thread to unravel.

If it was Lizzie, then she would have been alone in the house at that time, and knew she was so it wouldn't have mattered if that Abby might have made a big loud thud after being axed, i.e. Lizzie wouldn't have had to take into acocunt anyone hearing an unusual out of place noise from upstairs.

If it was another person who was the killer, and they were in conspiracy with Lizzie then Lizzie hearing the fall would have known that the murder was taking place upstairs and she just would have denied hearing anything later.

If Lizzie was not the killer, perhaps at that particular moment she might have been downstairs in the cellar, and that I would think, would have diverted the noise so she would not have heard the thud while being down there.

If the killer was someone who didn't know where anyone else was that morning and just did the deed as the time permitted, then he/she just lucked out no one heard anything or Abby fell in a way that did not make a noise which attracted attention.



 

Carol has covered all the possibilities.
If Lizzie was in the kitchen or the WC in the cellar, that is farthest away from the front bedroom. While an empty attic or roof may carry sounds, something from a carpeted room may not.

So it seems the simplest explanation is true: no thud heard.

PS Or it could have been a maniac who didn't really care?

(Message last edited May-20th-02  5:49 PM.)

I still believe there was no thud heard because there wasn't any thud to be heard.
I believe she was kneeling down when struck.

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  11:30 PM.)

The simplest answer would be thatAbby was kneeling.
Carol HAS done a good job ofcovering all the permutations.
How Abby fell could be an indicator of whether she knew andfelt comfortable with her attacker (until the onslaught, that is).

This first murder is the KEY to the rest of the mystery...so I have a notion that this question will be debated by the next generation, as it has by THIS one.

I agree with Kat, the first murder is the KEY to the whole case!  I'm sorry to keep rehashing this, but, its something that is stuck in my craw.  The thud or lack of thud.  I found this in the Trial Vol. 1 page 239/i260: testimony of Bridget Sullivan.

Q. Did you hear any opening or closing of the screen door?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q.Are you able to hear the opening or closing of that screen door from your bedroom?

A. Yes, sir: if anybody goes in or out and is careless and slams the door, I can hear it in my room.

Now, go to the house charts on the LAB website.  Bridget's room is in the attic on the FAR side of the house, the opposite side of where the screen door is, yet is able to hear it slam 2 stories up.

Lizzie, if in the privy, is located DIRECTLY below the spot where Abby was killed, 2 stories below.  Why couldn't she hear a 200 lb thud down there?  Or, if in her room, right next door, why couldn't she hear.  Dining room, still close enough to the action to hear in my book.

Bridget's testimony proves that the Borden house is not all that soundproof, so, if there was a thud and Lizzie didn't perpetrate the crime, then, she HAD to have heard it.  Even kneeling, 200 lbs is 200 lbs and still would have made some sort of jarring of the house.  If there was no thud, I believe it would have to do with someone lowering Abby to the floor gently or the possibility I had suggested awhile ago, of Abby sliding down the side of the bed to the floor.  But, the from the crime photos, this doesn't seem to be the case.  I'm sorry gang, I still think that Abby made some sort of commotion when she went down.  Oh, and sorry for the novel!