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1. "Did Lizzie pay off high ranking officials?"
Posted by Nicole on Mar-18th-02 at 2:37 PM

I read Arnold Brown's book.  How could he theorize that Lizzie paid off the DA, the judge without some type of backup? Was there a "Silent Government" set up in the Mellen House?  Where are the records of this?  Could Lizzie's illigitimate brother have committed the murders?  Regardless, I still think she played a large role in the murders, even if she didn't actually commit them.

I haven't read Brown in a good long while, so I'm not the person to be commenting...
Where are all the *BROWN* people?
Good post...good questions...

I think Lizzie had a lot to do with the murders also, whether she committed one or both or none her own self.
She also had, from what I understand a "plethora" of cousins from the Morse side of the family, and aunts and uncles.  AnD we have the Butcher Davis family, who were totally committed to John Morse's welfare and friendship.
So here, don't we have ENOUGH suspects without looking in *the clouds* for an illegitimate son of Andrew?

As to pay-offs, I suppose anything is possible--though there's supposed to be a distinction(?) between buying a not-guilty verdit if you're not guilty compared to buying one if guilty after all...(according to someone I could name)...

Well I am far from an expert on Brown although I just finished his work within the past three weeks.  I subcribe to his theory to a large extent and based on his ascertions I am developing my own theorum delicti which I shall post once I have worked out the details. 

I have read in several published works over these past four weeks where reference is made to the Mellen or Mellon House/Hotel was a popular meeting/watering hole for the local pols.  Apparently the Mellon Hotel was "the" in place for wheeling and dealing in affairs of political nature. 

Since DA's have been elected officals of the Commonwealth since its beginning and whereas the Mayor of Fall River was likewise an elected pol it follows a natural order that they and all other participants of the political/legal social circle would gravitate to the Mellon "back room" (Brown) for the daily/weekly deals. 

Whereas the defendant heralds from the "social elite" of the city it can be expected that her attorney, Andrew Jennings, would have been inclined to follow heirachial protocol and strike deals at the dealing house, aka Mellon Hotel. (Remember the Commonwealth felt it had a weak case against Lizzie.  On more than one occasion DA Knowlton pleaded with AG Pillsbury to drop the case before trial)

As far as paying off certain officals...well we need only look to our present day political hacks and wizards...need I say more?  Simply put...anything is possible even in 1892.  Remember though they lived in the Guilded Era and were of Victorian grace they were still....HUMANS. 

The "Silent Government" may well have been in full force and as far as records go well look what has been going on at Enron...all hail the shredder.  The prinicpal difference between then and now?, they didn''t have shredder and therefore they kept all the "notes" in their brains.  Each player knew his part and responisiblities.  As for the illegitimate half-brother...love children have been born in all the decades from Adam & Eve to Rev. Jackson and his secretary. 

I lean towards his existance and I will hopefully find documents to prove he did live and die in Fall River (see Brown's final chapter on the "suicide" of Billy Borden).  I hope this helps you out Nicole. BC

(Message last edited Mar-18th-02  11:25 PM.)

Thanks.  I am leaning alot toward Brown's theory, but I still have to read Robert Sullivan's book which, as I understand, leans the opposite way.

Yes Robert Sullivan is a retired Judge of the Massachusetts Courts and he is definitely coming from the "legal-eagle" angle.  I didn't care to read his work as he writes like a Judge...borish legal jargon. I made it into chapter 3 and I fell asleep couldn't take another page.  With all due respect to hissoner he needed to add a little tongue-n-cheek to take the duldrum out of it. 

(Message last edited Mar-19th-02  2:52 PM.)

yeah i did find it a bit boring and then started in on brown.  i am almost through with brown, but i need to finish sullivan.  i need to opposite views in order to finish my research paper.

You will most certainly have two opposing views on the case with Brown and Sullivan.  If you want to truly expand your Lizzie horizons read Victoria Lincoln, David Kent, E. H. Porter, Leonard Rebello, Edmund Pearson, and Frank Spiering just to name a few.  Good luck on the term paper by the way.

(Message last edited Mar-19th-02  5:49 PM.)

thanks, i have spiering to read, and i have porter. i didn't want to read lincoln because i heard it was more fiction than anything else.

Lincoln is not a work of ficton her book is based on facts as she researched them.  Her claim to fame is that she lived "just down the street" from Miss Lizzie on "The Hill". She says she lived on French Street and saw Miss Lizzie in the Maplecroft yard many times.  She maintains that Lizzie is the culprit and that Lizzie was prone to "temporal epilepsy" during her monthly period ("when she had the fleas").  Her book is interesting and of course poses yet another theory to the pile.  BC

good to know.  i am a newcomer to the all of the lizzie borden hype. but i am so enthralled about the whole thing.  i plan to go up to fall river this weekend or next, can't wait!

Where are you from?  Sounds like you're close by in New England.  My daughter and I are spending this Friday evening at the B & B for her 21st birthday "gift".  Last fall my wife, daughter and I took the tour of the house and the whole enchantment started all over again.  My daughter asked for the overnight as her birthday gift and my wife will have nothing to do with staying there.  We can't wait until Friday noon when we trek off to Fall Riv' see some of the historic sites (Oak Grove Cemetary, Maplecroft, Weybosset Street, Borden Building, Congregational Church to name a few).  Then a fun pack night of crime solving with the other guests.  BC

WOW, that sounds interesting.  I live near Newburgh, NY.  I heard a drive to Mass (that part anyway) is only a few hours.  I want to check out the B&B, but I am skeptical about staying at there too.  Just creepy, intriguing, but creepy. 

From your neighborhood to ours will take about 3 hrs. if you can hit the traffic just right and average 65mph.  You would probably do well to take i-84 east to i-90 mass pike at Sturbridge continue i-90 east to exit 10a rt-146 at millbury.  Take rt-146 south to jct of i-95 in Providence continue on i-95 south to exit 21 (left lane exit) onto i-195 east to Seekonk and on to Fall River.  Of course if you don't like the toll roads then head down to i-95 in NYC and head north to Providence then exit 21 i-195 east to Fall River.  If you are undecided about staying at the B & B wait till Sunday and I will be posting the details of our overnight.  Then you can make your mind up. BC

Hey BC,
Will you be checking out French Street? 
Will you see how far it really is from V. Lincoln's house to Lizzie's for us?  Thanks.

(Message last edited Mar-19th-02  10:51 PM.)

Found a reference:
LBQ, Winter'95, LIZBITS by Caplain, pg 9:

"...Miss Lincoln places her home at the northeast corner of French and High Streets (p.140).  That would be No.#715, the Charles Shove house built 1850 and moved from downtown 1873.  The Lincoln family resided there only about three years.  They moved to other locations rather frequently, finally winding up at 68 Bigelow Street in the years 1920-1929.  ...On opposite corners from the house at 715 High Street lived Franklin L. Almy and John C. Milne.  They were the owners of the Fall River News, a paper that was sympathetic to Lizzie's cause throughout her ordeal...."

i think i will have to wait, i hear it will be coooold this weekend.  but definitely looking forward to it.  have fun!

I will be checking out several of the landmarks, Oak Grove, French St., Weybosset St., Ferry St., Rock St., So. Main & Anawan, Third and Fourth Sts.  I will post my findings this weekend...that is IF I survive a NIGHT WITH MISS LIZZIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Survive?  You'll love it!  Have a wonderful time, and if you see Martha, or Bill Pavao, or Len, please give them my best wishes.

Will do Bob...T-minus 29 hrs. and counting (it's 11am Thurs). BC

The same way it is done today, yesterday, and tomorrow.
Of course, it is rarely in the news! Do you know how zoning and licensing changes get done? Out of the goodness of their hearts alone?

A R Brown acknowledges the many who helped in his research. Some of them must have helped with his research, aside from his own knowledge and that of his friends and relatives. "Those who know don't say, those who say don't know".

Its a judgment (or opinion) call.

Rays:  heavy duty and I second that emotion.  Because Brown cites his beloved reseaarch "assistants" I have to believe that most of his theory has creedance.  He did cite numerous public records that even we can view, if we choose to invest the time to drive over to Fall Riv and other locales and do some footwork on the case.  This same theorum holds true of Victoria Lincoln's ascertion that Lizzie had a form of epilipesy.  And you are throughly right on again...its a judgement call.  BC

I've researched Knowlton Papers for any letters he may have written to Pillsbury OTHER than the one famous letter about the disposition of the trial, and can't find any other reference.
BC, you posted: "...(On more than one occasion DA KNowlton 'Pleaded' with AG Pillsbury to 'Drop The Case' before trial.").
The one famous letter was on page 158, from Knowlton to Pillsbury, dated April 24, 1893:
"Personally I would like very much to get rid of the trial of the case  and feel that my own feelings in that direction may have influenced my better judgement.  I feel this all the more upon your not unexpected announcement that the burden of the trial would come upon me.
I confess, however, I cannot see my way clear to any disposition of the case other than a trial... "

-On pg.123, Dec. 26th, '92, Mrs. Pillsbury writes Knowlton that her husband is ill.
-On pg. 161, May 4th, '93, Pillsbury tells Knowlton: "...Questions of detail relating to the trial, they should communicate with you ....Since the transfer of murder to the Superior Court, these cases are as much in charge of the District Attorneys as any other criminal case which the Attorney General was to try..."
-On pg.176, May 5th,'93, Pillsbury writes Knowlton "...within the limits of my strength...improbable that I shall be allowed to take any active part in the trial..."
-On pg.177, May 5th, '93, KNOWLTON writes Pillsbury:  "...Anything...that you desire to refer to me I should be glad to attempt.. "
-And on pg.179, May 14th, '93, Knowlton writes Pillsbury:
"...I regret more than I can express, not only on my own account, but on yours, that the final decision is that you cannot be with us...
.....seriously and unexpectedly handicapped our little three year old came down with scarlet fever last Monday...Isn't it wicked, just at this crisis.  That is why I have to have Moody come to New Bedford..."

It's possible that Pillsbury's illness and the realization the trial would fall to him (around the Holiday's/Winter) was demoralizing, but Knowlton seems to rally his resolve after all, once the final decision is made in late April by Pillsbury.  He WAS his boss after all, and Knowlton's job Was to prosecute.

I have a question as to political heirarchy (sp) though:
Would the Mayor be *boss * of the City Marshal?
And the City Marshal *boss* of the ASsistant Marshal?
With the City Marshal *boss* of the police force, through orders given to the Ass. to pass down to the officers?

(Message last edited Mar-25th-02  3:13 AM.)

AR Brown claims the trial of 'guiltless' Lizzie was to make money for her defense and the judges. Rumor says LAB paid off the judges (thru her defense lawyers). This can not be proven, or disproven.

I think Knowlton's letter showed he knew the case was weak. Remember, Lizzie said "it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father". She certainly KNEW who it was! But she kept quiet to keep her Dad's secret. (Also prevent another heir from popping up.)

That's my belief about the case. I think it may be moral, if illegal, to take money to find an innocent Lizzie 'not guilty'. I read the recent book about Earl Rogers, who was publicly condemned by his minister Dad for using his legal trick to get off a guilty murderer. The implication is any trick is ok if 1) the accused is truly innocent, and 2) you're not caught!