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1. "Do You Suppose?"
Posted by Kat on Apr-30th-02 at 2:41 PM

Re-reading some Inquest testimony, I came across the statement of Lizzie, pg. 56- 57, where she says, "(The last time I wrote to Emma was)...Thursday morning;  and my father mailed the letter for me."

[The letter that was sent back, because by the time it had arrived in Fairhaven, Emma was on the return journey to Fall River].

This is a question I've always had, that has now re-surfaced:

Andrew is sick Wednesday, from the afteraffects of Tuesday night's vomiting.  He refuses Morse's offer to go to Swansea.  Bowen testifies at the Inquest, pg. 116, that he see's Mr. Borden "Wednesday walking along between the side door and gate."

We have an almost 70 year-old man who is probably dehydrated and maybe needing to stay near a privy Wednesday.

Then on Thusday morning we have Lizzie "APPEARING" downstairs after Morse leaves but before her father does...somewhere around 8:50 a.m.
We think she has been "abed" all this time, but then we realize she has written a letter to Emma.

Did she want to be sure that Andrew left the house THAT morning, and so appeared with a letter to Emma that needed to be taken to the Post Office?

That letter has always bugged me.  It seems part of a plan to get Andrew out of the house.  Why a letter THAT morning?

Didn't Lizzie cut short her vacation w/ Emma to return to Fall River the previous week? Wasn't she planning to go there the following week? Didn't Andy make his rounds each morning?

I see nothing sinister in asking Andy to mail a letter, do you?

Well, yea, I do see it as sinister, that's why I brought it up.  If Andrew pretty much stayed home Wednesday, and was debillitated enough to raise a question in (say) Lizzie's mind whether he would be well enough to do "his rounds" Thursday, then writing a letter to Emma and asking him to MAIL it, might ensure he left the house.  Then when he came home Thursday morning the first thing she asked him was "Any mail for me?"  Meaning MAIL was on her mind, obviously.

Lizzie only went as far as New Beford with Emma when they both left home for that trip July 21st.  Emma went on to Fairhaven.  It is not written anywhere that I know of, that Lizzie "cut short her trip."  Someone with knowlege of THE AuTHORS could clear that up.  She WAS, supposedly, going to go to Marion on Monday, but that may be a falsehood, if she knew what was coming.  It may only have been the excuse to go see Alice and Talk of Doom....

Lincoln says that Lizzie was the only one to testify that Andrew visited the Post Office on the murder morning.  That there were no other witnesses who reported seeing him there.  Can anyone confirm or deny?

Can not confirm/deny the post office visit, but I will start working on it.

KK: if you believe Lizzie was the sole perp to the whack job on Abby you're making a good case kiddo...what better way to make sure that the ole boy is outta the house?  Father dearest is downstreet posting the letter to Emma...bin boda boom...Lizzie whacking Mommie dearest.

Sounds plausible...but ONLY if you feel Lizzie did it all.  I don't think she did...but that's my theory...and I am working feverishly on writing it up.

On a general note: I think Daddy-O was heading downstreet no matter what...come hell or highwater he had BUSINESS dealings and renters to deal with and bank records to view.  He was not about to forego "HIS" bound and duties.  And don't forget...he had those darned eggs to unload.

BC

Didn't Bridget overhear Lizzie ask if there was mail for her, and Andrew answered?

bobcook:  My mind changes all the time!

Edit here:

Could the returned letter also be a phony story?  Why lie about those two things?  I'm not saying it's not possible, only what would be the point?
Also, Andrew, we believe, had his newspaper delivered to the P.O.
A dutiful daughter, who had Nothing Else To Do All Day, might have offered to do these errands for papa herself...

(Message last edited May-1st-02  12:38 AM.)

Trial Vol 1, page 236
Bridget testified that she heard Lizzie ask Mr. B if he had any mail.  It appears that she did not hear or did not pay attention to the answer.

Lincoln p. 127
"...though many witnesses had been at the post office who knew Andrew by sight, and not one had seen him, Lizzie herself is on the record as saying firmly, not once but three times, that he was there that morning..."

Good job.
Yea, that was why I wrote "Andrew answered" and left it like that.  I sort of remembered but didn't look it up...

BTW:  Have we had the benefit of your Biography on the "39 and Counting" Topic?  If you feel like it, that is....

Good thought, Kat.  But I don't think Lizzie asking Andrew to mail a letter to Emma would have gotten him to go into town if he was sick and not going anyway.  I don't think she would have done it to give herself more time either.

But I do think there's something about that letter ... I think it was sent with a purpose of some sort.  Could it be to make it look like Emma was really in Fairhaven?  Was it to serve as an alibi for Emma?  Maybe Lizzie wrote something self-serving in it and wanted it made public after the murders? 

She didn't necessarily write it that morning.  She could have written it the day before - or even a couple days before.  She only asked it be mailed Thursday. 

She wrote someone else, too, also close in time to the murders - one of the girls who she was going to meet in Marion, wasn't it?  And the girlfriend wouldn't divulge a word - she ripped the letter up (darn it!).  I don't recall ever hearing what Emma did with her letter.

Yea, the girlfriend *held out* under pressure until she talked to Jennings, then made her decision. (W.S.?)

I thought that it was possible Lizzie wrote the letter after visiting Alice Wed. eve., which would put some icing on her cake if she meant it to be returned and read, or just read.
But, according to Lizzie's exact testimony, the "last time" she "wrote" Emma was Thusday.  I was merely being true to her words, whether THEY were truthful or not!

We might think of ways this letter might have been important in a *plan.*

(PS:  I thought maybe the incentive of wanting the daily paper added to the "please mail my letter, papa?" might have been just enough to tip the scales towards Andrew taking that trip downtown after all--I figured Lizzie figured it was worth a shot.)

I had always thought that the post office visit was just a cover for the paper parcel Andrew carried home with him that looked like a letter(or maybe a will in disguise?)  In case people had seen Andrew with it, which Bridget did, it would explain what he was carrying, just mail.

Harry did an experiment that hasn't convinced too many, though I think it's cool.  Back then, the newspapers were 8-10 pages.

Harry removed that many pages from his *local* and folded it in half, then half again., then 1/2 again.  It became roughly the right measurements, of a whitish color from a distance and maybe "pocret-sized," which could possibly be something he had *stashed* in his pocket, removing it to his hand upon arrival home to ferret out his door key, as the front was locked...becoming the "object" Mrs. Kelly testified to having seen...

There you go...it was the newpaper of choice in the Borden house..no other paper would do...it was reliable, legible, and served well in the water closet...none other than the regionally renown...tad-tad:

THE  PROVIDENCE JOURNAL

Today as then the Providence Journal has served the news hungry public with great dignity and respect.  Fall River like many other cities and towns on the Rhode Island border, Attleboro being one, we tend to, as many authors have pointed out, gravitate to Providence as opposed to our own Capital, Boston.

We love you Rhody, oh yes we dooo, we love you Rhody, you are so truuuuue.

And the paper to this day is still soft and gentle in the water closet!

BC

  BobCook848 that is sooooo funny!  I wonder if Mr. Whipple would get into squeezing the Providence Journal?

As I remember reading about it, didn't Andy carry a "small white parcel" from the bank, and was seen by the employees there?
A white box would stand out against his black clothes.

Rays:
I just checked the Trial. and read the testimonies of
Abe Hart  (starting pg. 163)
John Burrell
Everett Cook
[--these three worked in the banks that Andrew visited the murder-morning]
Jonathan Clegg
[--the man who was a storekeeper]
and the last 2 to see Andrew in the town:
Joseph Shortsleeves
James Mather...

None of these were asked nor mentioned Andrew carrying a package.

The only witness to this outside the home, was Mrs. Kelly, pg. 213, who states Andrew had "a little white parcel, I think..."

I'm not going to look it up, but I think that AR Brown's book quotes someone from the bank about Andy leaving with a white package (about the size of folded banknotes?).

My apologies if my memory has failed me again.

Outside of looking for testimony at the trial, I did find a mention of a package in the Witness Statements, pg. 10, (probably on Saturday and probably noted by Harrington):

"Miss Mary Gallagher, at McManus' saw Mr. Borden at the corner of Main and Spring streets, just turning up Spring, with a small package in his hand , at 10:15.  She remembered the time, for she was just coming down town, and looked up at the City Clock."

Isn't it interesting that only women seemed to see the "package" that Andrew may have carried. 

Mary Gallagher can even remember the time and place she saw it... 10:15 a.m at corner of Main and Spring.(Witness statements)

And Patrolman Harrington testifies that he "asked [Lizzie} when she last saw her father, and she said, 'When he returned from the Post Office with a small package in his hand...." (trial testimony)

Bridget also testified that when Andrew came in "he had a little parcel in his hand, same as a paper or a book."

And when Knowlton questions Caroline Kelly at the Preliminary Hearing about the package she saw Andrew carrying, she describes it as follows: "it might have been five inches square, and perhaps an inch thick as near as I can remember ...."

Perhaps women would be more curious than men about a little package? Or is that too gender-biased?

I'm really glad someone else is looking this stuff up, also.
Thanks.
I'm also glad I covered myself by stating the only witness that I could find "outside the home" that had seen the package was Mrs. Kelly.  Even though there is M. Gallagher, I was concentrating on sworn testimony, rather than casual comments.

The *inside the home* testimony is appreciated here.

As to gendered bias, hey, that was true then, therefore it is valid.
Interesting note about women noticing a pkg.
I think I would, if I thought it might be for me....

BTW:  Hoffman states that Mary Gallagher was a bookkeeper and saw A.J.B. walking past McManus' store.

Perhaps women have a better eye for some details than men?
And vice-versa? It may depend on what you're interested in.

That may be so, but, perhaps it was just that Andrew on a daily basis did not carry things in his hands.  Maybe his hat when it was removed, or his pocket watch?  He comes across as being a low maitenance type of guy, so, that if one saw him suddenly carrying something in his hand, it may cause one pause to notice?  Just my 2 cents.