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1. "What a Delicious Item!!!"
Posted by Edisto on Apr-1st-02 at 12:38 PM

I'm retired from posting on Lizzie Borden, but this is too delicious to pass up.  For those who haven't seen it, there's a WONDERFUL Lizzie item on eBay today.  It's an account book that has FOUR (count 'em) Lizzie signatures and a bonus of FOUR Emma signatures.  There are also Andrew and Abby signatures, but unfortunately not the right Andrew and Abby.  This item has a provenance from Bob Flynn, a very reliable Lizzie expert.  It has a steep price-tag too.  Drat!  Which one of you is going to bid on it?

Edisto, say it isn't so! You're too good to be retired.

I'll take the liberty and post the URL. Hope you don't mind.



Come on back, we need you.

Now if I only had $5,500 laying around. Let me check in the sock drawer.

Well maybe if we each put in something we could ALL own it. 55 members divided into $5500---that is only 100 bucks a piece! Whaddya say?

Here are the photos of the signatures. Who is signing for Abby? Can you make out the name?

I emailed the seller asking if other characters are also in the book  (chuchill, russell, bowen, sullivan, etc.) I'll let you know when and if they reply. Too cool!

I don't think that's our Abby. The middle initial is "L." It looks like P.D. Borden, Jr. signed for this Abbie. May have been a minor.

The book seems to have all B names. Perhaps Dr. Bowen and wife.

(Message last edited Apr-1st-02  8:33 PM.)

Am I missing where Flynn is mentioned?

(Message last edited Apr-2nd-02  2:02 AM.)

This is in the text of the ad:

"LIZZIE A. BORDEN (1860-1927) accused murderess, whose father & step-mother were hacked to death in their home at Fall River, Mass. [Aug. 4, 1892]. The trial of the spinster Lizzie was a national sensation the following year. Since there was only circumstantial evidence, she was acquitted, but the fame of her supposed crime won her a place in American popular legend. In addition to ballads and contemporary literature, her trial has been the subject of much scholarly investigation. Offered here is an account book SIGNED FOUR TIMES by Lizzie A. Borden & her sister Emma Borden [some suspected her]. Bound Dividend Account book for the years 1889 [October], 1890 [April & October], and 1891 [April]. Each of the 32 pages contains signatures by various people from the Fall River, Mass. area, usually about 30 signatures per page. Page size 15-1/2 x 11-1/4. There are about 9 different persons [per year] with last name of Borden. Lizzie has signed "LIZZIE A. BORDEN", just like you'd like to see it, as after the trial she signed L.A.Borden. There is no doubt about the authenticity of Lizzie & Emma's signatures. At first glance we thought that we had discovered something of great interest, as two other signatures are of Andrew J. Borden Atty., and Abbie L. Borden. Andrew J. Borden was her father but this is a different Borden, so we are told [???]. Also her mother was Abbie D. Borden. Once again both Lizzie and Emma have signed this account book 4 times each. Lizzie Borden's autograph is practically unobtainable. Of no importance, but worth mentioning is the fact that Lizzie signs twice in the usual way [round middle initial] and in the other two signatures she signs with a pointed "A". This is not unusual and all 4 signatures are genuine without question. Provenance: from a noted Lizzie Borden historian, author, and expert. Signed by Lizzie Borden 4 times on separate pages. Also signed by her sister Emma on each of those pages. Very good condition. Buyer pays actual shipping charges. WILL NOT ship UPS as they will not honor insurance on this type of item [not replaceable]. We accept credit cards directly. We will invoice winning bidder soon after auction closes so there is no need to have ebay that that email requesting where to send payment. Please respond to our email invoice within 3 days. Note: this is only a 3 day auction. "

The ad was revised last night, so maybe there was a Flynn reference in it before then? I emailed the person asking if other names are in it and they said no but that another person who "was very knowledgable about Lizzie" told them that there was an Andrew J. Borden as pallbearer at Lizzie's dad's funeral (they were told this Andrew was a lawyer). They were so impressed they changed the ad.

Rebello on page 104 lists the pallbearers and there was an Andrew J. Borden but it says he was treasurer of Merchant Manufacturing Co, and a member of the Central Congregational Church. Too weird.

Edisto, did you see Flynn's name in the ad before the revision?

Flynn's name was never in the listing.  I emailed to find out who the Lizzie expert was who had provided the provenance.  I was told it was Bob Flynn.  Also, I'm that other "Lizzie expert" (not hardly) who mentioned that one of Andrew's pallbearers was also named Andrew J. Borden.  However, I didn't say he was a lawyer.  I wasn't even trying to say that he was the person who signed this account book, but simply that "Andrew J. Borden" wasn't a unique name.  I think I had wondered if perhaps a lawyer had signed FOR this Andrew J. Borden, as it appears some of the listed people had someone else sign for them.  This really is an item that should be in the FRHS or somewhere else where the public could have access to it.  It appears to be an alphabetical listing.  Does anybody know what kind of account book this is?  I didn't ask that question...

The seller's name is Kaye and she may join us here in this discussion. She asked to join today but I have not heard from her yet. Kaye? Let's chat!

Hello, my dear Edisto!  This is a worshipful piece of history, as one of my dear friends would say.

Hey, Edisto!
This looks to me like a STOCK DIVIDEND account book.  I guess back then, they didn't mail you your dividend, you had to go in and sign for it!
Notice Lizzie = $5.00 , and her *number* is 2  -if this were *Shares*, each share would be worth a (quarterly?) div. of $2.50 EACH.
Notice below her name is "Lydia Borden" = $25.00, and her *number* is 10  (10x 2.50= $25.00).

Just a surmise...kk

Also there is a BANK listed, in the 2nd book that seems to impart the information that  they are "under release of Nov., 1892."
The 2nd book, I don't know...


(Message last edited Apr-3rd-02  11:04 PM.)

Yes, I agree with you, Kat.  I might have known that if I'd bothered to read the listing carefully!  I know Lizzie (and probably Emma too) did own some stock in several enterprises.  It doesn't appear they owned much stock in this company.  Well, as the seller predicted, the item didn't sell...I'd like to own one legitimate Lizzie autograph, but I wouldn't like to see anyone (me included) cut this up to make several autographs out of it just to recoup part of the investment.  Of course, this doesn't have quite the same cachet as Lizzie's signature in or on something she actually owned, e. g.,  a book or letter.  I have several antique autograph books, such as the ones young girls would get their friends to sign.  I would LOVE to find Lizzie's signature, along with a little verse, in one of those.  It might give us some insight into the mind of Lizzie.  (I have several such verses signed "Lizzie," but unfortunately not "our" Lizzie.)

There is an extensive listing for Andrew Borden (not our Andrew) in "Yesterday in Old Fall River" - - another good reason to get Paul Hoffman's great book.

The book, "Central Congregational Church" (1905) lists an Andrew Borden who resided on Rock Street.  The names of the Bordens who resided at 92 Second Street are made conspicuous by their absence.

When Emma testified at the trial, she brought a list of Lizzie's financial holdings. (Bottom of page 1529) Amongst the holdings were 2 shares of the Fall River National Bank which apparently were acquired on April 3, 1883.

I wonder if these are the two shares listed in the ledger.

I was doing some calculating on this item.  I'm going to assume the stock paid a 5% dividend, a reasonable rate for that time. That would make the 2 shares worth about $100.00. (About $1,800 in todays dollars adjusted for inflation.)

Emma also had 2 shares.

I kinda think Andrew gave each of his daughters the shares as a gift for some reason. Lizzie, and probably Emma too, owned a few shares in other companies.  You don't normally buy 2 shares, or 5 shares. Those amounts sound like gifts to me.

Another reason to believe Andrew wasn't the cheapskate he's made out to be.

(Message last edited Apr-4th-02  7:12 PM.)

Harry,
I was going to try to figure out Lizzie's monthly income from all her sources:  Stock dividends, rent from Ferry St. property, and allowance from Andrew....
You can beat me to it if you want...I think Hiram Harrington elucidates Lizzie's holdings in shares, in Rebello, and also what the rents were...Plus YOU know the inflationary figure..that confuse me...