1. "anything happening on august 4th?"
Posted by Stefani on Jul-24th-02 at 12:27 AM

I've searched and searched and can find no special events, lectures, plays or activiities scheduled for this August 4 in Fall River related to the Borden case. Nothing even listed on the B&B site, although that does not seem to be updated very frequently.

On a side note, if any of you are going for a visit, even the tour of the house, I have some photo requests from inside the house---specific shots I need for the web site.

Are people touring the house allowed to take photos?  I believe I've heard that they're not.  It probably slows down the tour.  When we stayed overnight, we were allowed to take any pictures we wished, however.  Unfortunately, we didn't take all that many, because I wasn't very interested in the case until Lizzie's cold fingers reached out and grabbed me.  If the folks at the B&B aren't already doing so, they should get some nice professional photos taken and sell them in the gift shop, maybe as postcards.  They might even be able to make up a little album for guests.

Oooh, cold fingers!

Edisto, you make a GREAT point.  I found the gift shop lacking in that way myself & not being able to take pictures was frustrating.  They also had a real lack of postcards.

When I stayed overnite back in March guests were allowed to take as many photos as we wanted.  I have tons, well nearly tons.  My daughter and I stayed there and between the two of us we have mucho photos.

She did a lot in black and white for her college para-pysche club and I did mucho in color.  Both of the interior, exterior and the properties all around the house.

Also took several of the modern day layout of Third Street.

When we went on the general tour back in October of 2001 we were allowed to take photos as well.  But at that time I wasn't "into" the case so I didn't bother to take many.

As far as I know photos are permissible.  They do lack any postcard types in the "gift shop"...if one can classify that as a gift shop.



BC

When I was there the 'gift shop' was in leary press. That was cool going in there, but everything was distracting---noises, smells, size of the place.

I could see it as a Kewpie Doll factory, easy. (did I spell that right? oh well).

I HATED looking out of the parent's bedroom upstairs and seeing the top of a building. That about broke my heart. I had the exact same reaction when I went to the Alamo for the first time. There it was in the middle of down town. No cottonwood trees, no sweeping vistas. At least they both still stand! 92 Second Street and the Alamo. Hmm. I bet nobody has put those two places in the same thought before now!

If you read a good book on the Alamo, you will learn that the chapel is the only remaining part of a much larger adobe brick fortified place. It was on the outside of town to minister to the native Indians. The regular church was inside the settler's town.
The 1960 John Wayne film "The Alamo" recreated it many miles away for authenticity.

I'm waiting for my sofa picture please?
I've been good, bobcookbobcook.

When I took the half-hour tour three years ago no photos were allowed.  I don't recall seeing any gifts in the Leary Press except the wonderful reprint of Porter's book, which I purchased.  Maybe I was so excited to finally have that, I didn't notice other things.  Oh, I did get a t-shirt but it might have come from the FRHS gift shop.  They have a nice gift shop.  No photos were allowed in there, either.  But they do have photos you can purchase. 
That's a wonderful idea - for the B & B to sell postcards of the house.  But if they did, would it cut down their business? 
At the little railroad museum in Fall River I bought a t-shirt that says "Axe me Where I've Been" and on the back "Lizzie Borden - (then something about 40 Hits)". 

Believe it or not, you and Stefani were THERE only 16 days apart.
Now, dueling memories!

This mornings Herald News

http://www.heraldnews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=4947406&BRD=1710&PAG=461&dept_id=99784&rfi=6

Thanks, Harry.  So it would be worthwhile to visit Fall River on the anniversary.  I'll have to do it some time.
BTW, Lizzie wasn't going to go fishing "tomorrow" (Friday) - she was going to go to Marion on Monday.  (Let's get these things right ....   )

Thanks Harry!  Lizzie is alive and well it appears.  One thing I've noticed in every show and the recreation of the day, Lizzie is never wearing a dress that approximates the Bedford Cord dress.  Not even a light blue dress with dark spots on it, always something different. 

Unless one wants to get into printing designs on fabric, it's pretty well impossible to find fabric that looks anything like Lizzie's Bedford cord dress.  I've tried on more than one occasion.  It doesn't even need to be a corded fabric; I would settle for calico.  That dress (according to a couple of folks who should have known) had a fairly large geometric design on it.  Of course, we don't know how that design was spaced, do we?  It's very difficult to find any sort of geometric design these days.  Everything is floral.  One of the women in that gazebo picture from Victorian Vistas has a skirt with a good-sized geometric design; however, it's not the sort of design that was on Lizzie's dress.  I was somewhat surprised by that lady's skirt, because it looks more "modern" than I would have expected.  Or maybe I should say it reminds me of the 1920s or 30s, rather than the 1800s.  The style, however, looks like the 1880s to me.  At any rate, it was a printed dress, and it would be more accurate to design a print dress of some sort than a solid.

(Message last edited Aug-5th-02  11:36 AM.)

Wow, I didn't realize it was so difficult to find a fabric that came close!  I haven't been in a fabric store in quite some time, so, I'm not really up on whats available at the moment.  I found this dress in my searchs on the internet, I realize the body of it is white, and its not textured, but, I kind of imagine that the dress Lizzie wore looked something like it.

(Message last edited Aug-5th-02  2:12 AM.)

That's an excellent approximation, I think.  It even has the ruffle on the bottom.  Clearly this is made of a sheer fabric and not Bedford cord, and the ground color isn't blue, but the design is probably quite close to that on Lizzie's dress, and the style looks similar too.  Could you tell us where you found this?

I found it on a site for antique clothing, I will have to see if I can find it again, everything shown was for sale!  I also found this little number too, though to busy to be Lizzie's Bedford Cord, it is light blue and Navy!

The second one has leg o' mutton sleeves, so it may be a bit later than 1892.  (I'm sure people in the larger and more sophisticated cities were alrady wearing them in 1892, but probably not Lizzie.)  I recall Emma's remark about Lizzie's dress having had "full sleeves, but not so full as they are wearing now."  I've assumed she was referring to those exaggerated puffs that had recently come into vogue and that made Lizzie (as in that Newport photo) look so muscular.  These pictures are real finds that do conjure up what Lizzie was actually wearing that morning, geometric print and all.

Thanks, Edisto!  Found the site, the 2 dresses are gone though, but, they do have lots of wonderful dresses for sale, some stuff from the Civil War era!  Here is the link:

http://www.bobbydene.com/wcloth1.htm

The 2 examples of "Wrappers" attached here, seem unforgettable to me.
I think I'd see them in my SLEEP.
Why wouldn't ANYONE remember these patterns?

Emma testified that Lizzie's Bedford cord had a geometric pattern about an inch long and about 3/4 " wide. (T. 1537).  Why is it now thought that what she wore was similiar to these gaudy showpieces?
I'm sorry if I may sound brusque--I've a storm coming, weird noises outside, and had not been able to "get on here" most of the night...(I'm hurrying ...)

[Ps;  i just got to run into the Vintage store Link posted..thanx Susan...Way way Cool!]

(Message last edited Aug-7th-02  4:56 AM.)

Foreshadowing...*WayWayCOOL*
Turns out the weird noises outside were my compressor breaking!
No A/C today!  And if there were no credit card, no A/C ever!

Really, though, Edisto, I was wondering why you thought now that the dress Lizzie wore could have been like these two examples?  I feel like I missed a page somewhere...(?)
Is it information gleaned from Victorian Vistas? OR?

I really don't think that second ("busy," according to Susan) dress is much like Lizzie's Bedford cord.  I believe Susan included it mostly because it's from the right era, is a wrapper like those Victoria Lincoln described, and contains the same colors that the Bedford cord supposedly had.  If Lizzie had been wearing a pattern that busy, she could have spilled paint, blood, Prussic acid, pear juice, mutton broth, coffee, etc., on it, and nobody would have been the wiser.  The first dress, with the "lozenge" shaped designs (or whatever they are) has some similarities to Lizzie's Bedford cord, as it was described by the dressmaker and by Emma. The background appears to be white or a faded pastel, which of course isn't the same as the Bedford cord (it was described as "blue and white mixed" or simply blue); however, the printed design might well be similar to that on Lizzie's dress.  If you cut out a diamond or lozenge shape that's an inch long and 3/4 of an inch wide, it makes a pretty good-sized design.  Of course, Lizzie's dress might have had the designs more tightly spaced (or less so).  We don't know about that.  We do know it had full sleeves and was blousy in front and that it had a ruffle around the bottom and no train.  We don't know about the neckline, but the neckline shown is pretty typical for that era, so it could be right.  With the information we have to go on, I think it's a good approximation.  Certainly better than the "squashed bug" dress from the other board, IMHO.  Incidentally, I've learned recently that there are any number of websites that show samples of Bedford cord fabric, some of it printed.  Apparently it's still very much available, although it's a little puzzling that some sites describe a pique-like material, while others say it's more like corduroy.  It's even sold as a fabric for automobile upholstery!  I went to my nearby fabric store this week and found some similar fabrics in the "shirtings" section, but they weren't called Bedford cord.  From the pictures I've seen of Lizzie, I would describe her taste as being on the gaudy side, and that pink wrapper of hers sounds quite loud.

Yikes!  I hear you, Kat, no AC in Florida heat could = murder!!! 

You're welcome.  I like to check out some of these sites that have Victorian clothing, would love to see how close I can come to finding something similar to the Bedford Cord dress.  The white one with the blue leaves or diamonds on it is the closest I've found yet, which isn't very close.  But, just to kind of give people an example of what a wrapper or house dress usually looked like from this era. 

Oh, I'm so glad to hear from both of you, and have that explanation, Edisto.
I had not taken into account what you pointed out, that we don't know the SPACING of the designs on Lizzie's dress.  I suppose I have a set picture in my mind, and it needs to be dislodged.  Those fancy duds will sure DO THAT!

Also, these outfits are in 2 pieces, right?  Or at least Lizzie's were.  So if she wanted to mix and match, it wouldn't quite work out that way?
The "dress" she gave to *the court* was of 2 different materials, though.  So would Lizzie have *multiple* dresses made the same, and why?
(If she were a busy little beaver about the chores of the house, or an artist, I could see her buying 2 skirts and blouse-waists the same, in order to switch one out if it were marred,  BUT, LazyLizzie wouldn't seem to have that need, nor be that practical.) (?)

I'm wondering if the Bengaline dress was maybe, and I do mean maybe, made from 2 different material rolls of the same fabric or from different dye lots?  That would explain why the shirt-waist and skirt were similar, but, appeared to be different materials.  Just from Emma's testimony in the trial on how much material it would take to make a dress, 8 to 10 yards!!!  Thats alot of fabric! 

In the 1890s (and even when I was a kid), fabrics weren't made nearly as wide as they are today.  The expression, "all wool and a yard wide," meant something of better fiber and wider than usual, and that would be only 36".  Today, most fabrics are 42" or even 54" wide.  It would have taken more yardage to made a dress in those days, because one couldn't cut as many pattern pieces out of a yard of fabric.  Of course, the longer (and often fuller) skirts and the covered-up bodices required more fabric anyway.

So, Edisto, by Emma's estimation, it really was a cheap dress!  I would imagine for one of Lizzie's fine visting or walking dresses it would have taken about 15 yards or so then.  Thanks for the info! 

I'm not sure whether one of Lizzie's fancier outfits would have required more yardage, but for sure it would have required more expensive yardage.  Also, a more "constructed" garment would probably require such things as a lining, which would add to the cost and require additional fabric of another type.  The "wrapper" type garment (which V. Lincoln says was two-piece)probably would have been made so that it could be easily washed and ironed, so it wouldn't have been lined.  Someone testified that Lizzie's outfit (presumably the Bedford cord?) had a loose front and "pulled out" while she was being tended to after the murders.  That sounds as if the blouse tucked into the skirt, so I've assumed it was in two pieces.  I was also under the impression Lizzie's darker blue outfit that was turned over to the police had a blouse and skirt of different fabrics and that the "waist," if not the skirt, had a pattern on it. I'll see if I can find where I got that, but I can't promise success.  Following Susan's lead, I have been visiting some of the antique and vintage clothing sites on the Internet.  It's a real education.  You can see how the styles changed around the time of the Borden murders, with the exaggerated leg o' mutton sleeves coming into vogue.

I think the "pulled out' testimony was Alice Russell, and the "different material" testimony was Dr. Dolan.

This may be the Prelim., so I'll look also.

TRIAL
Alice Russell
Pg. 382+

Q.  During the time that you was down stairs was there anything about loosening a dress, any one's dress?
A.  Yes.

Q.  Well, state what that was.
A.  I will have to ask you your question again.

Q.  About loosening anyone's dress.
A.  Anything said, did you say?

Q.  What I want to know is, was anything said or done about loosening anyone's dress?
A.  I started to unloosen her dress, thinking she was faint, and she said,  "I am not faint."

Q.  Was her dress, the upper part of her dress, loose or tight?
A.  Her dress was loose here, (indicating) where I started to unloosen it.  It was loose here so it pulled out.

Q.  Are you able to give us any description of the dress she had
on that morning?
A.  None whatever, other than that.


TRIAL
Dolan
Pg.885

Q.  (Exhibiting blue dress and waist and white skirt to witness). Were those the articles that were handed to you by Mr. Jennings?
A.  That is the dress and skirt.

Q.  Dress and waist?
A.  Dress and waist.  (Examining white skirt). There is a minute pin spot of blood on the skirt: I cannot find it now.

Q.  I won't trouble you to look for it now. Was that the skirt and dress?
A.  It looks like it. That is the skirt and the dress: I don't know whether that is the white skirt or not.
..........................
PRELIMINARY
DR. Dolan
Pg. 168+

Q.  Was any clothing given to you?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Who gave it to you?
A.  I think Mr. Jennings.
Q.  Where did he get it?
A.  I dont know. He said he got it from Miss Lizzie Borden.
Q.  What was it, a dress skirt and an under white skirt?
A.  Yes sir and her waist.
Q.  Did you examine them?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  What do you mean by a waist, an outside or under waist?
A.  A blouse waist.
.......................
Q.  Where was the smooch?
A.  Going into the pocket, just in front of the pocket, or behind it, I presume you call it?
Q.  It is pretty hard to tell where a woman's pocket is. With reference to this particular pocket, where was that, was it the bottom or upper part of the opening in the pocket?
A.  The upper part.
Q.  Near the upper part of the opening going into the pocket; was it above it?
A.  No sir, it was about the center of the pocket.
Q.  Here is my pocket?
A.  It was about there.
Q.  Then it was a little to one side, and near the top?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  That was a smooch?
A.  Yes sir.
..........................
Pg. 170
Q.  Did you have anything else given to you?
A.  Yes, I had a waist. I found nothing on that that I could see.
Q.  This blouse waist?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Worn with the same dress skirt, as I understand.
A.  Yes, not the same material.
Q.  There was this dress skirt, and blouse waist, and underskirt?
A.  Yes sir, and shoes and stockings.
.................
--I checked Alice's Inquest & Prelim. and this Trial testimony is as close as I could find as to loosening Lizzie's dress that may have *pulled out* or untucked a blouse.
--Dr. Dolan doesn't seem to give evidence as to a *pattern* on the blouse.  But there are pockets somewhere, the better to hold PEARS?

Hmmmm...I still think I saw something about a pattern on the waist of the outfit that was turned over to the police.  I remember thinking that Lizzie could have said to herself, "Let's see...what do I have that's blue and has a pattern on it and that could be confused with the Bedford cord that I was actually wearing?"  I couldn't find it either, but I'll keep looking.  For all I know, it could be in one of those "unverified" sources, though.

This gown is similiar to a "figured" background pattern that I had always envisioned on Lizzie's morning dress on Thursday.  Maybe not so fancily decorated, and BLUE, not black.
It is a "Matching Bodice & Skirt".

http://victorianelegence.com/18002.html

Kat, are you refering to the Bengaline dress that was turned over to the police?  I think it must have had a very similar look to it!  great find! 

This is similiar,  in my mind,  to the dress Lizzie was described as wearing on Thursday,  only not so fancy.  [Not the bedford cord & not the bengaline, to be more clear.]

The dress Lizzie actually wore VS. the bengaline she turned over to the court, could not be too similiar, as no one would admit to having seen her in the bengaline on Thursday....

Oh!  I see what you're getting at, not 2, but, 3 DRESSES!!!  Well, that would certainly make sense with all the confusion the witnesses had trying to describe what Lizzie had on vs. what was turned over to the police vs. what Bridget knew Lizzie to be wearing in the morning.  I wonder just how many(that we never heard of from Miss Emma)patterned blue dresses that looked similar that Lizzie owned? 

Is it that Bridget remembered what Lizzie wore on WEDNESDAY, but not THURSDAY?
Do I remember that correctly?

Yes, Kat, you are correct!  Is Bridget being honest, or, is she having selective memory loss.  Didn't Lizzie wear the Bedford Cord and the pink wrapper until filthy and then switch out for the other?  The pink wrapper seems to have been clean and waiting, Bridget had already done the laundry for that week.  Was the pink wrapper in the pile of clothes that Lizzie carried up?

I'm just trying to think out loud here, wondering how truly dirty the Bedford Cord was and if it was ready to wash, had just been washed?  All these small details!!!  Wash day was Monday or Tuesday?  So, the Bedford Cord could have gone until the end of the week before Lizzie switched it out, so, she would probably do that on a regular basis.  So, if she was wearing the Bedford Cord the week of the murders, I think she would have worn it all week. 

The reasoning is sound, but Lizzie was being particularly unreasonable that week.

The Bedford cord could not have been worn in the sight of witnesses Thursday, as Bridget deliberatly says she knows what Lizzie wore Wednesday, but NOT THURSDAY.  And Alice, who was practically on her lap in the kitchen, said she had not seen the bedford cord since the spring (implying it was not the B.C. dress at all on Thursday), and could not tell what dress it was Lizzie had on.

It almost all sounds like The Emperor's New Clothes!  Wheres the one person who will speak up with the truth?  I realize it was a horrific moment for all involved, but, a dark blue dress versus a light blue dress?  I think that all would be able to agree on the color at least.