1. "Mr. Martins says..."
Posted by dnslilly on Oct-12th-02 at 8:00 PM
I do recall vividly that I mentioned having
read "The Legend, The truth, the Final Chapter,"
about a year ago...Sharon has been reading it lately...and
Michael informed that the book is "not the truth &
not the final chapter...Brown confessed during an interview
shortly before he died that he'd had 'the idea' and made up
the rest." He pointed out 3 books in the 'Borden
Book' closet-of-a-room we were in as the best ones to have/read.
one was called "The Lizzie Borden Resource," which
intend to purchase via telephone or email. it is the
biggest and most expensive (about $25.). FTR, I've read
about 3 books on Lizzie and none of the 3 is among the ones
he claims are the best ones.
Interesting guy, interesting woman, interesting case &
interesting place.
David
email is dnslilly@iglou.com
2. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by diana on Oct-12th-02 at 8:11 PM
In response to Message #1.
I can't stand it! What are the other
two books he suggests are the best?
3. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Edisto on Oct-12th-02 at 8:13 PM
In response to Message #1.
I thought, "The Lizzie Borden Resource..."
Why haven't I ever heard of that? Could it be "The
Lizzie Borden Sourcebook"? I do have that in my library,
and it's useful, but nothing like as useful as Rebello.
Of course, Rebello is out of print and very hard to come by,
even on eBay. If it weren't for that maddening index,
Rebello's book would be almost perfect.
I was browsing through my "Knowlton Papers" last
night, and Brown's original idea for a book was included therein.
One of the many crank letters that were sent to Hosea Knowlton
in the aftermath of the murders concerned a supposed illegitimate
son of Andrew Borden's, who, according to the writer, should
be looked at as a suspect. I don't think Knowlton bothered
to follow up on this, but Arnold Brown apparently did!
(Message last edited Oct-12th-02 8:20 PM.)
4. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Susan on Oct-12th-02 at 8:40 PM
In response to Message #2.
Ditto! I would like to know what the
other 2 books were too!
5. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by dnslilly on Oct-12th-02 at 8:44 PM
In response to Message #3.
"The Lizzie Borden Resource..."
Could it be "The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook"? <<<
Yeah, that's the correct name. I have a wandering mind
that doesn't allow me to quote correctly unless the source
is right in front of me. So I checked the FRHS site
and that's the book I'm referring to that Martins pointed
out.
another was "The Girl in the House of Hate" by Charles
and Louise Samuels, and I don't remember the title of the
3rd one he mentioned. Martins, a white-haired woman
& another man were in and out of the gift shop while we
were there. they encouraged us to call and order the
books at our leisure.
I'm very grateful to him for informing me that the A.R. Brown
book is basically a novel and is not at all based on fact.
Brown apparently admitted to making up the whole story about
Ellan Eagan, Henry Hawthorne's memories & Bill Borden's
sharp-edged 'friend.'
FWIT: "unsolved mysteries" is a redundancy.
Dave
email: dnslilly@iglou.com
6. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Kat on Oct-13th-02 at 12:40 AM
In response to Message #5.
Maybe he's pushing those because he has extra
copies.
I'd say those 2 books are not too high on my list.
I've understood for a long time that Martins doesn't read
the Forum, in any shape or size.
And you are right...that basically his job is FALL RIVER,
not just Lizzie...
7. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by harry on Oct-13th-02 at 1:01 AM
In response to Message #6.
The book "The Girl In The House of Hate"
is one of a series of books written by various authors whose
title all began with the words "The Girl In ...".
Charles Samuels one of the duo who wrote it also wrote "The
Girl In The Red Velvet Swing", covering the Evelyn Nesbit/Stanford
White/Harry Thaw murder case. They were a series of
books put out on the cheap in the early 1950's.
The "House of Hate" book is devoted almost entirely
to the trial if I remember correctly.
(Message last edited Oct-13th-02 1:02 AM.)
8. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by william on Oct-13th-02 at 12:04 PM
In response to Message #1.
David:
Is it possible the B&B wasn't open because you didn't
make reservations in advance?
Bill
9. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by dnslilly on Oct-13th-02 at 12:14 PM
In response to Message #8.
We were told that the B&B is open only
on weekends from end of summer to beginning of summer...I
wondered, tho, whose car was parked in the driveway and why
a light was on inside. I realized when I was there that
that house wouldn't even be there now if it weren't for the
notoriety. everything around it has changed.
D
email: dnslilly@iglou.com
10. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Edisto on Oct-13th-02 at 12:21 PM
In response to Message #8.
(Not to horn in on a post meant for someone
else, but-) we had reservations, and it didn't appear to be
open when we arrived either. I think they're a little
casual about tending to the doors at times; however, they
more than made up for it after we finally got in. It
was just a great, homey experience. It made me think
the Bordens didn't live in such a cramped style as I had imagined.
Their home isn't an unattractive place today, and I don't
think it was in those days either. Of course, it does help
that the only toilet isn't in the cellar these days.
11. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by dnslilly on Oct-13th-02 at 1:46 PM
In response to Message #10.
I considered pushing what looked like a doorbell
and/or knocking but I felt like a trespasser as it was and
so I didn't do that.
I also didn't attempt to get inside Maplecroft. Before
going there to film & get pics, we'd talked with Martins
(conversation clearly audible on the videotape) and were told
that the guy that lives there is erratic. According
to MM, the guy physically picked up a woman who was looking
around in the yard and put her back down on the sidewalk.
If that isn't strange enough -> at that time there was
a sign outside the house stating to the effect that the public
was welcome to visit, as part of the place was a Borden-related
museum.
~the Bordens didn't live in such a cramped style as I had
imagined.<<<
not physically, but considering the crummy relationships between
the Bordens, it probably felt pretty cramped.
Dave
email: dnslilly@iglou.com
12. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Edisto on Oct-13th-02 at 8:40 PM
In response to Message #11.
Gee, I'd like to think I know who the woman
was who was physicaly removed from the premises. I recall
from another board that somebody said she was going to go
poking around in the yard at Maplecroft, whether Mr. Dube
liked it or not. It certainly is odd, however, if he
put out the welcome mat and then ousted a visitor. Curiouser
and curioser... Maybe Lizzie's spirit has taken over.
I'm really enjoying your posts, because your experience is
a little bit like ours, but it's enough different to be intriguing.
I'm considering another visit to Fall River in the near future.
Love the picture of the Borden items on display at the FRHS.
This time I'm gonna make sure they're open for business.
13. " Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Kat on Oct-13th-02 at 11:10 PM
In response to Message #3.
The book, Knowlton
Papers was published in 1994, but was received as a donation
of documents to the FRHS in 1989. Also donated from
another source were the Hilliard Papers , in 1989.
Brown Supposedly researched his book for 4 (?) years inclusive
of writing it(?) and published in 1991, 3 years before Knowlton
collection. Supposing Brown visited the FRHS and as
a researcher/writer had access to the collection just at the
time it was being readied for print, to see that letter and
be the first on his block to weave a tale around it?
Possible. "Timing is Everything."
Anyway--Here is the saga of Gordon Bordon (sic) as
mentioned by Edisto: Sound Familiar?
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Vs. Lizzie A. Borden, The
Knowlton Papers 1892- 1893, FRHS, 1994
Pg. 22-23, #HK012, letter, handwritten, in ink:
"HOTEL KENMORE
Albany N. Y. Aug 12 1892
District Atty. Knowlton
Fall River, Mass.
Dear Sir:--
Feeling quite safe from all possible arrest. I write you
This information regarding the Fall River Mystery. THE KILLING
of old man BORDON and his wife was not perportrated by any
immediate member of his family as is generally supposed.
But They were put out of THE WAY By an ILLIGTIMATE SON whom
BORDON refused to recognize after the Mother of his off-spring
died a number of years ago in a certain Mass. Insane Asylum
of a Broken heart. That son is now twenty five years of age.
He was not known to any member of the family save the old
man and woman. When that sons Mother was sent to the asylum
through Bordon, the Son was put in a New York Orphan Asylum.
When he was subsequently bound out to a farmer. When he reached
his age he left the farmer and went to Bordon and demanded
recognition and some sort of an understanding. We mutually
agreed to a certain contract part orally & part written.
What the contract was does not matter here more than to say
- He was to be educated at his, Bordons expense. Allowed
a certain sum of money a year and when completed course preparatory
to College was to be paid a final sum of $5000 to commence
life with and then they were QUITS. Through the influence
of his Wife who disliked the said son because he once insulted
her when she made a stinging remark regarding that sons mother
in his presence was persuaded to renounce his obligations
& promises after he had partly filled them. The son repeatedly
thereafter tried to induce Bordon to carry out his agreement
as he was abundently able to do so. He wouldn't listen.
So to make a long story short the son Brooded over his and
his mothers past troubles and resolved upon Vengeance, with
the result known to all. One point More Lizzie Bordon my
half sister may have heard of me and it is to shield her fathers
infamy and good name that she is taking the course she has
so nobly with stood. The girl is entirely innocent and it
is only that justice may be done her that I write this otherwise
I would not have written this for I fairly hate the Bordon
NAME.
The instrument the deed was done with was a Lathers Hatchet
and was droped over board from a Fall River steamer at the
Dock.Entrance to the House was gained by a front window afterwards
fastened egress by side window. The time of REVENGE about
11:45 I THINK.
And the illigitimate who took the revenge is the Writer of
this confession. No use to track me for it will be an utter
impossibility to do so. At the hour this letter is mailed
I shall take a train for hundreds of miles a way.
Yours Truly
Phillip Gordon Reed"
(Message last edited Oct-13th-02 11:15 PM.)
14. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by diana on Oct-14th-02 at 5:43 PM
In response to Message #7.
'The Girl in the House of Hate' is mostly
drawn from the trial. But although they seem to be printing
portions of it verbatim - I don't think they are. For
example, there's an portion of the trial on page 55 where
Alice answers Moody with the following:
"Q. Will you state what you saw there?
A. I saw Miss Lizzie near the stove. Miss Emma was over
by the sink, and Miss Lizzie was at the stove, and she had
a skirt in her hand and her sister came and said, 'What are
you going to do?' Lizzie said, 'I am going to burn this old
thing.' She said it was all covered with something.
I do not know whether she said it was all covered with paint
or all covered with blood. "
Now, let's see --- 'paint' .. or 'blood'? Hmm... I just
can't remember...
15. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by harry on Oct-14th-02 at 9:17 PM
In response to Message #14.
Strange that the author should tack that on.
In fact the questions immediately after that delve into Alice's
answer (pg. 391):
Q. "Covered in paint,"---is that the expression?
A. I don't know whether she said "covered in paint"
or "covered with paint".
Q. Do you recall anything else said then?
A. No, sir.
Makes you wonder how many more such changes there are.
I have the book, but I've only read it in dribs and drabs.
16. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Kat on Oct-15th-02 at 2:29 AM
In response to Message #15.
It's definetly sensationalized.
That's why I questioned what *Mr. Martin Said*.
Got anymore you two?
17. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by william on Oct-15th-02 at 1:36 PM
In response to Message #6.
Hello Kat,
I'm surprised that Mr. Martins is recommending "Girl
in the House of Hate." Perhaps, as you suggested, he
has too many in stock and is trying to dump them on an unsuspecting
public.
The book, by Charles and Louise Samuels, is rife with errors
and inaccuracies. It rates high on the list of "Books
you can do without."
I shall provide you with one example. If you decide to ignore
my advice and purchase a copy of the book anyway, you can
discover the rest of the flubs on your own.
Last page (144): "Frantically, Lizzie bequeathed $500
for the 'care of my father's grave.' But if she left anything
for her mother's final resting place it was not mentioned
in her last testament".
The truth of the matter is that Lizzie provided a sum of money
for the perpetual care of the entire plot, not just Andrew's
grave.
I have little fear that Mr. Martins will be offended by my
remarks, since he doesn't deign to vist our web site.
18. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by dnslilly on Oct-15th-02 at 6:19 PM
In response to Message #17.
Actually, he has several copies of the "Lizzie
Borden Sourcebook;" there are two more (in addition to
LBS) he recommended as the best ones, those being GiTHoH and
another I don't recall the name of, but ONE of those last
two he had only one copy of & wouldn't sell the display
model.
I told him I'd never seen any of those 3 in bookstores and
his response was that I probably wouldn't because "sensationalism
sells better." which of course it does to the general
public. I've read a few books about Jim Morrison and
it's not easy to get to the "truth" cause most people
want to read about how crazy he was instead of how human he
was. At our motel in New Bedford I asked the clerk if
he knew if the LB B&B was open. guess what he said..."oh,
you mean that lady that killed her parents?" I
replied, "well, we're not sure about that."
David
email: dnslilly@iglou.com
19. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by rays on Oct-17th-02 at 12:29 PM
In response to Message #17.
The conflicting statements about the upkeep
of the grave site is just a difference in speaking and drawing
inferences. There was NO mention of either her mother or step-mother,
or the dead sister. But they were all in the same plot.
Upkeep of her "Father's grave" applied to all buried
there. SO where's the conflict?
[BTW, has anyone tracked down the 1960 book of Wm Kunstler
on the Trial of Lizzie Borden?]
(Message last edited Oct-17th-02 12:30 PM.)
20. "Re:
Mr. Martins says..."
Posted by rays on Oct-17th-02 at 12:32 PM
In response to Message #13.
Do we remember what A R Brown said about this
letter?
Since it was posted from Albany, I think Jos Carpenter was
trying to shed light on the murders (and get back at his employer?).
21. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Kat on Oct-17th-02 at 8:04 PM
In response to Message #19.
Kunstler, William Moses. "Murder in Hatred:
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Versus Lizzie Borden."
First Degree . NY: Oceana Publications, 1960.
22-35. = 14 page ESSAY
22. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Stefani on Oct-21st-02 at 11:13 PM
In response to Message #17.
The best thing about The Girl in the House
of Hate is the title. Gotta love that title. I think it
is the very best of all the Lizzie books.
Second favorite title (not book just title) is A Private
Disgrace . Then Forty Whacks.
23. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Kashesan on Oct-22nd-02 at 6:56 AM
In response to Message #22.
I always thought Lincoln's subtitle "Lizzie
Borden By Daylight" would be a great name for a punk
girl group.
24. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by rays on Oct-24th-02 at 6:27 PM
In response to Message #21.
But has anyone READ this book? Kunstler's
1964 book (Hall-Mills) did not list this among his prior books,
or the 1980 reprint. WHY?
Is Pearson's 1935 (?) book in public domain, and able to be
accessed by anyone? Was there a 1963 update of this book?
ANY readers of either?
25. "Re: Mr.
Martins says..."
Posted by Kat on Oct-25th-02 at 1:50 AM
In response to Message #24.
It's supposedly called First Degree
.
You say it's not listed anywhere?
I think Pearson, 1937, may be available soon.
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