1. "What is Abby doing up there"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Nov-8th-02 at 9:53 PM

Why should Abby be in the geust room at all that day? I understand that was vey unusual in the fist place.

And who did closed the windows in that room? Did X do it before or after the murder?
If i was after, then why?
If it was before, than i think the murder must have been planed in some way.
I also see it hard to see when someone dis see the window open for the last time, and when some one saw them closed the first time.

(Forgive me for my bad english)

Hi Jimmy and welcome to the forum!  The reason Abby was up in the guest room was to straighten it up after Lizzie's Uncle John had slept in there.  Emma was the one who normally would clean the guest room when she was home, but, she was visiting the Brownells in Fairhaven.  Bridget, the maid, had nothing to do with cleaning any of the bedrooms upstairs.  Did you know that you can download the Trial and other documents from the Lizzie Andrew Borden Virtual Museum and Library site?

Here is the link:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/OfficialDocuments.htm

Here is Emma Borden's trial testimony that I got the information from:  Trial Volume 2, page 1565/i588

Q. (By Mr. Knowlton) Miss Borden, how long has Bridget Sullivan been with you?
A. About two years and nine months.

Q. Did she have any duties upstairs, I mean in regard to your sleeping room?
A. No, sir.

Q. Who took care of your own room?
A. I did.

Q. Who took care of Miss Lizzie's room?
A. She did.

Q. And when there was anything to be done with the guest chamber, whose duty was it usually to take care of that?
A. Usually I did.

Q. You?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Miss Lizzie have any particular duties about the housework?
A. She did anything that she cared to do.

Q. She had no particular duty assigned her?
A. No, I don't think of any.

Jimmy, when you speak of the windows in the guest room, do you mean the shutters in the windows?  Is that what you are asking about being closed?  I believe that they were closed when Abby was found, but, I don't know if it was ever discovered if they were closed by the murderer or Abby.  Sorry, I can't find an answer for that. 

Hello, Jimmy!
I hope I don't crowd out someone's post while I am composing this...sometimes it takes me awhile to write.

You are right that Abby shouldn't normally be in that guest room.  Testimony has shown, though, that if Abby is expecting guests (she MAY have been, on Monday--we're not sure) then she will probably be the one to get that room ready.

Apparently Uncle John Morse was an UNexpected guest and since we hear it is Emma's job (and Lizzie's) to keep that guest room cleaned up, but Emma is out of town, then Abby has to do it.  Lizzie could have, but she didn't...WHy, we don't know.  Maybe Lizzie got up too late that morning?  Or it could have been planned that Morse would show up, use the room, and with knowledge of the family's schedules, it would be likely to find Abby in there fixing up the room.  (Come to think of it...we don't know that Abby changed the bed, do we?)

When you mention the windows, do you mean the shutters?
I don't know about the windows being open or closed, but there is some question as to the shutters inside.  Supposedly it was darker in there than the other rooms, so it is possible the shutters were closed on one window.  The north window shutters facing Mrs. Churchill's house may have been closed.  Since northern sun is not especially considered bright enough to harm the furnishings over time, maybe those shutters were closed to blank out the view from the neighbor's second story?
But I think the girls say Mrs. Borden liked to shut up the room when finished cleaning it to save work.

But we can't rely on just waht Lizzie and Emma say, if they are suspect?

Hi Jimmy and welcome to the forum!  The reason Abby was up in the guest room was to straighten it up after Lizzie's Uncle John had slept in there.  Emma was the one who normally would clean the guest room when she was home, but, she was visiting the Brownells in Fairhaven.  Bridget, the maid, had nothing to do with cleaning any of the bedrooms upstairs.  Did you know that you can download the Trial and other documents from the Lizzie Andrew Borden Virtual Museum and Library site?

Here is the link:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/OfficialDocuments.htm

Here is Emma Borden's trial testimony that I got the information from:  Trial Volume 2, page 1565/i588

Q. (By Mr. Knowlton) Miss Borden, how long has Bridget Sullivan been with you?
A. About two years and nine months.

Q. Did she have any duties upstairs, I mean in regard to your sleeping room?
A. No, sir.

Q. Who took care of your own room?
A. I did.

Q. Who took care of Miss Lizzie's room?
A. She did.

Q. And when there was anything to be done with the guest chamber, whose duty was it usually to take care of that?
A. Usually I did.

Q. You?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Miss Lizzie have any particular duties about the housework?
A. She did anything that she cared to do.

Q. She had no particular duty assigned her?
A. No, I don't think of any.

Jimmy, when you speak of the windows in the guest room, do you mean the shutters in the windows?  Is that what you are asking about being closed?  I believe that they were closed when Abby was found, but, I don't know if it was ever discovered if they were closed by the murderer or Abby.  Sorry, I can't find an answer for that.  

Hi Kat, and thanks for saying welcomeing me here
I also should say taht at enjoy to read what you are wristing here, i have been learning alot from you.

About Abby in the guest romm, i did not know that she would do the room if Emma wasnt at home. That clearly explain her being there.
I Think at least V Lincone nerver told that.
But was the bed done when she was murderd? Intresting question! I it would be intresting to know, at least if we think Lizzie did it.

Yes, i ment shutters. Acordning to that Lincon agein i was unusual that they were closed. But if Addy was doing that very it really dosent matter when they were closed, but i cloud tell us something more of THEN she died.
Anyway, acordning to Lincon it was so unusual that they were closed so a person rememberd it, thats why i asked about the shutters.

Thanks!

I was just reading Mrs. Churchill's Inquest testimony trying to find out if she says the shutters were closed in the guest room.  All she says is it was dark in there, or at least darker than another room.
BUT, it could be important because Mrs. Churchill was upstairs in her own home directly across the driveway making beds as well!  So maybe a murderer Would close the shutters on that side.  They would have to know maybe, that Mrs. Churchill had Boarders, and family, and many beds to make.  Probably the whole neighborhood knew that.

Apparently the officials were satisfied that the room was completely fixed up when Abby was killed.  That includes that the bed was made.  I was wondering, on my own, if a man sleeping in that bed one night, would make it necessary for the Mrs. of the house to change the sheets for whomever came next?
Would you change the sheets?
I would not change the sheets after one night IF the next person to come and stay may be the brother of the first.  Or blood related.  If they were not related, I would change the sheets.

I wonder if there were sheets in the laundry tub that Thursday night?

Another thing I found last night from Bridget was she said Lizzie was in charge of cleaning the parlour--that was the room she was responsible for, and that Bridget never went in there.
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And please excuse any of my misspellings, also.

(Message last edited Nov-9th-02  3:11 AM.)

Hi Jimmy, are you from Sweden or are you an international, living in Sweden now?

There was some testimony either in the witness statements or somewhere else that someone outside saw the shutters or curtains close in the guest room that morning. I think the police discounted some kids who said they observed something regarding the house that morning. Whereever this was, it wasn't the Trickey-McHenry affair where someone said they observed this being done.

I don't know whether in 1893 there were shutters inside the windows or curtains. Those shutters on the outside of the house, I assume they were brought forward to cover the windows, but don't know if that was done from inside the house or with a pole from the outside.
Some house photos show the house with them and some without.

It is strange about the sheets in the guest room.  I wondered about that as well, whether the bed was changed. I doubt it or Abby would have to had taken the sheets downcellar and neither Bridget nor Lizzie testified to seeing her do this. 

Lizzie said in her inquest statements that Abby was expecting a guest on Monday. If it was a male guest I suspect the sheets wouldn't get changed. If a female they would have been changed. Who this visitor expected Monday was no one knows. I think it odd, considering the volumes of opinion that she had hardly any friends but her sister, to have someone coming to stay with her.

From what I have read Emma and Lizzie changed off in taking care of the parlour seasonally but the guest room was Abby's domain. Lizzie said in her inquest testimony that she was never allowed in the room, yet the seamstress I think it was says they used to sew in there.

In Sweden would it be considered strange in 1892 for a woman to commit a hatchet murder?

Back in the 1940s I visited a relative who still had shutters on their windows. Became obsolete with storm windows and screens.
They opened the window, reached out, and unhooked the wooden shutter. This allowed keeping the windows open but kept unwanted things (birds, etc.) out of the house. In winter they sheltered the single pane windows, protection against hail and ice.
While wooden shutters are obsolete (?), they do have cloth or metal coverings to shade the windows today.

...
Abby reportedly went up there to put pillow shams on the bed. Or maybe to get something for her trip outside, being summoned by that note (from the closet). But she heard something and went into the room and found Nemesis. We'll never know for sure, just what Lizzie and Bridget and Uncle John said afterwards.

(Message last edited Nov-9th-02  3:56 PM.)

AHA!  Word Search strikes again.  I remembered shutters in the room , and I found shutters in the Trial, Manning, pg. 1481:

Q.  Now wait a minute. You must not tell what anybody said: just tell what you did.
A.  I went up stairs to a hallway that was dark, and went into a bed chamber, and Dr. Bowen went around the foot of the bed toward the body that was lying between a dressing case and the bed.

Q.  Do you remember whether it was light or dark in the room, Mr. Manning?
A.  My recollection is that it was not very light: I think that some of the wooden shutters in the room were closed.
-------
--Also, Hiram Harrington, in one of his *interviews* and in the Witness Statements claims, pg. 11:
"...She helped him off with one coat and on with another, and assisted him in an easy incline on the sofa, and desired to place a afghan over him, and also to adjust the shutters so the light would not disturb his slumber."...
_____________
If you're not including Trickey-McHenry, then the little girls I remember supposedly said they heard cries?
Witness Statements, pg. 12-13:
"Miss Sarah Scholick(?) of Cook street had clue. Janice Duckworth No. 43 John street told her that Annie Connelly aged eight years, and Mamie Smith aged ten years, heard cries in Mr. Borden's house, and a few minutes later a man came out the front door wiping his coat and vest with a handkerchief.
These children deny this; the oldest saying she was at her cousin's on the corner of Second and Rodman. streets. all that day, and the. other girl was with her. It was simply child's talk."
--This is in the new LBQ, and is part of Doherty's notes.

I meant to comment that the *not allowed in the guest room* quote of Lizzie has confused me for a time but after reading it over and over again, in the past, I realized Lizzie meant she wasn't allowed in the guest room THAt DAy, Thursday.  (I doubt she would want to go in there, anyway....)

Alice says she and the girls met in the guest room all the time and that the girls did use it as their sitting room.

In the Trial, Emma remarks, pg. 1563+ 
Q.  Did you make any use of the guest chamber?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  What for?
A.  As a sewing room.
Q.  Anything else?
A.  Why, we sat there in making it a sewing room.
Q.  Anything else beside that?
A.  Except when some one came that we put there to sleep.
Q.  Anything else?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  Did you receive your friends there?
A.  Oh, just as it happened. If it was some one we were very well acquainted with and we were in there sewing, we had them come up.
Q.  And didn't you usually receive your friends there?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  Didn't you usually receive Miss Russell there?
A.  Very often.

--I had read a news account or in a book, that a possible guest was Mrs. Fish, Abby's sister, who lived in Hartford?


I also wondered, Jimmy, if you knew of any crimes like the Borden's where the middle-aged (for the times) daughter was convicted of killing her father?
We can't find a similar crime, except the daughter was a teenager and usually had a boyfriend or a group of friends do the deed or help her.