1. "Andrew Borden Committed Suicide!"
Posted by edisto on Jun-4th-02 at 1:32 PM

I found this interesting news item in Philip Silvia's "Victorian Vistas: Fall River, 1886-1900."  It's from a newspaper account of October 2, 1889:
"Andrew J. Borden 2nd, a well known dealer in provisions, residing at 83 Globe Street, committed suicide by hanging yesterday afternoon.  Less than a year ago Mr. Borden exchanged a farm on Stafford Road, taking in its place valuable city property.  The new owner at once began extensive improvements to the farm with a view...(here the text is garbled, but it appears Borden wanted to trade back and regain his farm). The owner would not part with it except for an additional consideration to cover the expenses of improvements, and Mr. Borden hesitated about making  any payment.  Several consultations were held by the parties interested but no settlement could be arrived at.  Mr. Borden commenced to worry about the transactions, and for the past four months his friends had noticed a deep seated melancholy had taken possession of him.  Yesterday he was even more melancholy than usual, but shortly after dinner said he was going out on an errand.  He had been gone some time when his long absence began to cause surprise.  His father, a man over 75 years, had occasion to go into the barn at the rear of the house and there found the lifeless body of his son, suspended from one of the rafters of the barn by a cotton rope.  The father cut the body down and assistance was called, but all efforts to bring life back were fruitless.
Mr. Borden was about 50 years of age and unmarried.  He lived in a very comfortable home with his father and two sisters and was considered very well-to-do.  His rash act was undoubtedly committed during a fit of melancholia."
Those Bordens certainly seemed to take their property transactions seriously! (No hint as to whether this man was related to "our" Bordens.)

Collecting Andrew J. Bordens, or Andrew Bordens:

Recall that Andrew J. Borden, Esq. that signed for stock dividends in that journal that was selling on E-Bay.

Fascinating stuff, Edisto!

I got to looking in Hoffman, and there is a cite. for an Andrew Borden:

"Andrew Borden, who was named after his relative, the murdered Andrew Jackson Borden, was treasurer of the Merchant Mills company in Fall River.  He was a pallbearer at the Borden funeral on Saturday, August 6, 1892 and helped Richard C. Borden, Abraham G. Hart, George W. Dean, Jerome C. Borden and James M. Osborne carry Andrew's casket.

A few months before the murders, both Andrews desired to purchase the same Main Street house on 'the hill', the exclusive area of Fall River.  The asking price was $15,000.  Andrew Jackson Borden supposedly wanted to move there to please his daughters, who wanted to live in the most respected neighborhood in town.  When he discovered his namesake also wanted the property, Andrew proposed that the younger man purchase a large piece of land up on the hill at a good price, then Andrew would buy half of it and the two Bordens could live on the hill as neighbors.  The land was never bought, however, perhaps because the murders occurred before the closing.

Andrew Borden also contributed to the $60,000 bond that Emma needed to post after being named administrator of the Borden estate on August 30, 1892.  The others who helped raise the money for the bond were Jerome C. Borden, Joseph A. Borden, Frank L. Almy and Frank S. Stevens."

-- I'm glad to be reminded of this.  Hoffman doesn't give a source.  Does anyone know the background or truth of this story? The land deal sounds complicated...

I think if I lived with two Borden sisters I'd hang myself too

Kat, you're saying that "our" Andrew Borden was going to move up on the Hill???  That's the first I ever heard of it.

Wasn't there another Andrew J. Borden in Fall River who was a janitor?

I think Emma repeats this "house on the hill" spiel in her 1913 *interview*.  Can you check?  It may be in the PRiVY.  I HAVE to go take my walk...

Harry, you know very well of which you speak!
Rebello, pg. 24n:
"In 1892, the Fall River City Directory listed 2 men with the name Andrew J. Borden.
(1) Andrew J. Borden, Pres. Union Savings Bank, 92 Second Street
(2) Andrew J. Borden, janitor, City Hall, 13 Hanover Street"

--so now we have 4 Andrew Bordens collected?

Well, I walked until the bats came swooping around!

That "house on the hill" reference wasn't in Emma's *Interview*, it was in *Lizzie's Jailhouse Interview*.  That portion was never transcribed by me.  The article claims information comes from a real estate agent, but seems to echo a family member, if true.

Casebook of Family and Crime, Joyce Williams, et.al., eds, pg. 133, from the NEW YORK RECORDER, September 20, 1892:

"The reason the house was without such conveniences was that the girls desired Mr. Borden not to make improvements, because he was talking of moving up 'on the hill.'  Fall River's aristocracy live 'on the hill,' and Mr. Borden had declared to real estate agents that he was looking for a house in that section and that, although he would just as soon live in the old house, the girls desired to move and he wanted to gratify them.

He said that over a year ago to a well-known real estate agent, who had it in mind and was looking for a bargain for him.

More than that, he had offered $15,000 for a handsome house on Main street, that had just been sold, and found that his namesake, a prominent mill Treasurer, was also trying to buy it for the same sum.  He told him if the younger man would get certain land at a bargain he would take half of it, and the two Andrew Bordens would build houses alike and live side by side.  This was a few months ago.  Naturally anyone who contemplated buying a new house and removing to it would not fix up his old house, which was in a district of tenements, as he would if he intended to remain in it.

When Mr. Borden wanted to put in modern improvements, the wife and daughters said they preferred to stand it rather than have the house torn up for piping.

This does not indicate that Lizzie Borden's father was niggardly in his dealings with his family, thereby arousing the girl's indignation and supplying her with a motive for a brutal murder...."

Yes, that story seems to only back up Lizzie and she seems to be the only one that backs it up.  Was Emma ever asked about this move "on the hill"? 

It is NOT mentioned, nor cited in Rebello, so don't bother to look.
I think these are the only places I've seen this story, unless an author latched on to it and used it to bolster a theory.  Those of you more familiar with the authors would know.

The Part of the article pertaining to Lizzie in jail, [EDIT HERE: is transcribed in the TOPIC HEADER: LizzieAndrewBorden, pg. 9, Thread "Lizzie Borden-A Casebook", dated Feb. 13, by Kat.]
The rest of the article is also very favorable to Lizzie:  She kisses her dead father's cold lips, murmers "How much he looks like grandfather," and promptly bursts into tears, after "bearing up all day."
There is information as to Lizzie's own healthy bank accounts that allowed her "handsome gowns", and to travel to Europe two years earlier.  It claimed she carried the financial burden of cost over-runs dealing with her charitable endeavors, and ends with the statement  "It is evident that lack of money could never have supplied a motive in this case."

--I am not aware of any response or input as to Emma in this matter.
--Notice some of this went word for word, or scene by scene, into the movie LEGEND OF LIZZIE BORDEN, especially the jail *interview*!
--PS: Susan is too fast for me!  I'm still "editing" and she's already "resonded"!!!

(Message last edited Jun-5th-02  12:46 AM.)

Yes, it does all make Lizzie look good.  Wasn't the reporter that visited Lizzie in Taunton actually a woman? 

That listing of "Andrew J Borden, janitor at City Hall" suggest political influence (then or now). I wonder if that was like in NY, where the "janitor" just subcontracts out the work to the low bidder?
That term can be misleading!

How exactly does holding the post of janitor at City Hall suggest political influence, Ray, in your opinion?

Do you suppose he means kinda like "Bldg. Super."? and that it's a *courtesy job* where the person named doesn't really do the work of maintenance, but hires it out? so that it's more a *cushy job* than a real one?  that's all I can think of...
(so many question marks...)

In the "Legend" movie, Lizzie's jail cell interview was done by "Julian Ralph" (played by "I Dream of Jeannie's" Dr. Bellows).  Julian Ralph really was a reporter that covered the trial.  But I thought, like Susan, that a woman did that interview.  I thought I had read that Mary Livermore was the ONLY person to interview Lizzie in jail.  Right or wrong? 

Geez.  Andrew wouldn't get gaslight for the house.  He wouldn't put in an indoor bathroom.  (I read last night that they had a privy behind the barn and, according to Bridget, Mr. Borden used it and sometimes Abby, but never the 'girls'.  Somehow I knew those girls would not lower themselves. )   The guy saves rotted pears and hawks eggs he drags all the way from Swansea for a couple cents.  Picks up broken locks.  Tries to set the Guiness Record for how many days you can eat mutton in a row.  And suddenly he wants to modernize the house, the girls begging him not to because they are all moving to the Hill soon?????  Even THIS guy is laughing: 

An alias was used as the author of the piece, but if the thread is read (of the *Interview*) I think it refers to 2 chairs being placed at the bars of the cell= 2 visitors.  One could be Livermore, one Ralph?  The author states, "...I was anxious to see if this girl, with whom I was associated several years ago in the work of the Fall River Fruit and Flower Mission, had changed her character..."

I also think the lock Andrew picked up has a practical explanation.
The testimony of Mather/Shortsleeves tells us of a lock that was broken and falling to pieces, that had been on the shop door, and was removed and replaced.
It seems to me practical for Andrew to take that lock home, compare his (now out-dated) key to it, and then throw them both away. 
If he had a lot of property, and a bunch of keys (found on his body by Winwood) to fit the doors, he would want to eliminate the useless ones...

I still do not believe Andrew ALWAYS or even more than SOMETIMES sold eggs.  No one has been able to point to a Reliable source as to whether this was a pecuinary Habit, or perhaps only happened a very few times.  I am open to source...

One night I went on the Yahoo Search for "Pears".  I found a site called "The Pear Bureau of the N.W."  Found out pears do not ripen on the tree.  They mature, then fall, or are harvested, and then must be Kept in a warm place (kitchen in the summer?) to ripen.  Once they ripen fully, they should then be stored in a cold place.  (as an aside...under the barn?  would that be cool?)

(Message last edited Jun-5th-02  9:30 PM.)

There was a water closet (flush toilet) in the cellar.

Augusta: Where did you read that there was a privy behind the barn? It was my understanding that the privy was in the barn.

The picture on the "Back Fence" thread of Harry's seem to show an open doorway to where the privy is, inside the back of the barn.

Is a "water closet" a flush toilet?  Do you mean they had a flush toilet?????
In the movie, there seems to be a bench-type seating with lids.

Well, Rebello, pg. 49, does show in the scheme, a "water closet." I went to Yahoo Search for "water closet". Found a site called "Vintage Plumbing Products For Old Houses." I am not certifying that this is what the Borden's had, nor do I know the date of this convenience. This is merely to show what may be considered a "water closet", whether Borden's had one or not, I do not know... Anybody know for sure?

Kat, I don't think that the Bordens had anything as nice as that!  I believe in the Legend movie, when they show Lizzie in the basement, going to drop the ax in the privy, thats what I feel they had.

From what I know of the Victorian era, when you could afford indoor plumbing and had a "water closet", you wanted to have where you could show it off.  Just like when people got electricity, have you ever seen those mirrored switch and plug plates?  That was to call your attention to it, let you know the family could afford and had electricity.

So, if the Bordens could have a flush toilet, I'm sure they would have a tub and bathroom sink to go along with. 

That job of janitor was appointed, not elected.
Ergo, political influence. Or just kickbacks?

I'll let those who are better read and have more books answer that.
I can testify to visiting relatives over 40 years ago who had a flush toilet in the basement. The house predated the Civil War, and it was an add-on. Don't remember about a bathtub, but they had running water on the first floor. Once the house was sold, it could have been brought up to code.

"Oh Ye, of little faith," department:

There are many instances in the LB literature attesting to the fact the Bordens had a water closet in the basement.  It was a flush toilet.  Thet "Legend" movie would have us believe that the john in the basement was a "two holer." (Who would want company on such an occasion)? If Lizzie had attempted to dispose of the hatchet in this fashion, there would have been a whopping big plumbing bill for
Andrew to pay.

Neilson Caplain, noted historian of Lizzie and Fall River, in his "Lizbits" column in the October, 1997 Quarterly:
"The discovery of the Water Department Records (see July issue of Quarterly) is indeed well worth noting and thanks are due to the authors of the article. 
However, I would like to point out that running city water in the Borden house was installed only in the sink at the back door entry and in the basement water closet, never on the second floor or in any other place in the house . . ."

Perhaps I'm wrong, William?  But, from what I've read, it seems when Andrew bought the house, he took out the "plumbing" on the second floor of the house.  And, as to what plumbing was left, was in the sink room off the back door and in the basement, in the washroom, towards the back righthand side of the house.

And if the Bordens did have a flush toilet, why were they still using chamber pots or and slop pails?  Seems strange.

Does anyone else have any info on this?  If the Bordens had a flush toilet, it would be news to me! 

Ah, a subject worth discussing, toilets!

According to this floor plan the privy in the basement was on the opposite side of the house from where the plumbing would be. Unless they had pipes running across the room they would need a separate line. It was a two seater though! 

I didn't want to go there - but I'm tenacious. 

I must admit I was being facetious, when I questioned "Why two holes?
In fact there were as many as three holes in the privy to accomodate vistors of different sizes: men, women and children.

It was not unusual to have chamber pots in the bedrooms and a watercloset in another part of the house.  I'm living proof that these conditions existed.  Who would want to jump out of bed on a cold winter's morning and go down two flights to the water closet? Not me, not Pop, not Mom.

Definition of  watercloset: "A privy, especially a privy furnished with a contrivance for introducing a stream of water to cleanse it."
Webster's International Dictionary, 1891.

. . . and now you know the rest of the story (I hope).

The definition doesn't say it definitely always had to flush.  It could have been a non-flush and they simply referred to it as a 'water closet'. 

I'll get the source on the privy in the back yard.

A non-flushing water closet?  I'd say that would be a job for a plumber.

William, I too grew up on the east coast, New Jersey, to be exact.  I lived in a home built in 1900 exactly, it had 14 rooms and ONLY ONE BATHROOM on the ground floor.  Like it or not, middle of winter, freezing cold(not much insulation in the house!)thats what we had to use!  I think chamber pots would have been a welcome addition in our household!  Not to mention, 7 people having to use that one bathroom.

I can still remember the racket that high tank toilet made when you flushed it and it refilled!  Thank the lord that after about 2 years my parents remodeled the bathroom and put in more modern conveniences, though I DID miss that big ol' clawfoot tub! 

The reference to the privy outdoors comes from page 33, Bridget's testimony at the Preliminary Hearing:

Q:  That privy out behind the barn, was that used by any member or the family, was that in use?
A:  Mr. Borden used it.
Q:  Did anybody else besides him?
A:  Mrs. Borden sometimes.
Q:  Did you ever know the girls to use it?
A:  No Sir.

On page 6, there is some testimony about water in the barn (again from Bridget):
(About Andrew Borden)
Q:  Is there a faucet in the barn?
A:  Yes Sir.
Q:  City water?
A:  Yes Sir.
Q:  What did he do with the water?
A:  Took a slop pail and threw it all over the yard.
Q:  You mean he emptied some slops?
A:  Yes Sir.
Q:  Wherebouts did he empty the slops?
A:  Right out in the yard.
Q:  Then drew some water into the pail?
A:  Yes Sir.
.....
Q:  After he came in with his pail, what did he to then?
A:  He washed and got ready for breakfast.
Q:  Washed where?
A:  In the kitchen.

This makes it sound like there was only a water faucet in the barn.  Does Knowlton mean "That privy out behind the barn" to mean a privy inside the back of the barn?  Then why didn't he say that?  Does he mean "out" as in outside of the house and 'behind the barn' means an addition built on to the back of the barn?  If there was an indoor privy in the barn, why did Andrew empty his slops out in the yard? 

Bill, your definition of a water closet read, "A privy, especially a privy furnished with a contrivance for introducting a stream of water to cleanse it." Doesn't this mean that it can be EITHER a simple privy, but MORE OFTEN it means one that flushes? 

Kat, ROTTEN pears were thrown under the barn.  On page 58 of Bridget's Preliminary Hearing testimony:
(They talk about the pears were GETTING ripe and were dropping off the trees in the yard.) ...
Q:  How do you know they were getting ripe?
A:  Mr. Borden brought some in in a basket.
Q:  How long before this?
A:  That very morning.
Q:  The morning of the tragedy?
A:  Thursday morning.
Q:  Had he brought in any before?
A:  Yes Sir.
Q:  They had been saving pears there, had they, before?
A:  Yes Sir.
Q:  How many days before that?
A:  I could not tell you.  He brought them in and left them on the kitchen table.
Q:  What was done with them then?
A:  Nothing.  Sometimes he came out when they were rotten, and threw them under the barn.
Q:  Who would throw them under the barn?
A:  Mr. Borden.
Q:  Whether or not those pears that he brought in before Thursday, were any of them taken into the dining room?
A:  No Sir, I did not see them.
Q:  Did he bring them in and let them rot, and then throw them away?
A:  Yes Sir.
Q:  Did not he eat any of them?
A:  I don't know.  They were left on the kitchen table.
Q:  In the basket?
A:  He brought them in a day or two before, and put them on the kitchen table, and took those out that were rotten and threw them under the barn.
Q:  How were they on the kitchen table?
A:  Laid right out, emptied out.
Q:  What table?
A:  A table right near the closet.

That's pretty clear, that he brought in pears to ripen then whatever was rotten he would throw under the barn.  That part, "under the barn" is not clear.  What the heck does THAT mean?  Even Knowlton accepts this as a phrase needing no clarification.  Either it was a well-known phrase for meaning something else - like a pit in the barn for garbage, or people back then threw garbage into a crawlspace under their barns?  

There was no privy behind the barn.

There were two side doors in the barn. The first one towards the street was called the barn door. The door nearest to the fence was called the privy door (see drawing in Rebello, page 45).

The water faucet where Bridget obtained water to wash the windows, was to the right of the barn door, under the staircase that led to the loft. The door that led to the privy was the door at the end of the barn (Rebello, page 87). There is a photograph showing the interior of the barn during demolition that might be helpful (page 43)

Thanks for clearing that cloudy line of questioning up, Bill.  The testimony makes it sound like it's outside behind the barn. 

"Pardon ME?" is a good title for this thread that's now about toilets.
I'd lake to get this straight.
The Borden's had a flush toilet (?)

Do we have any other cites for this besides Caplain?
I think he uses a lot of newspapers for sources, but why this would be in a newspaper is beyond me...

OH, and "eggs, anyone?"
Any news on that front?

The Borden home had two faucets serviced by city water, one in the kitchen sink and another in the cellar. There was also a faucet in the barn. . . the cellar water closet was serviced by city water
(See Rebello p.32)

One or more books say their house was originally for two families. When Andy remodelled, he had the second floor kitchen water outlet removed.

Oh thankyouthankyouthankyou Bill!

I feel as if you just installed a toilet in my own house!

Whew, what a relief.
Things were not as bad as they sounded.
The LegEND movie strikes again.  I'll always remember the naked scene where Liz/Lizzie drops the weapon in the "what-cha-ma-call-it."

(What is that called, now?  I have to change my nomenclature...)

BTW, Rays:
I think one book refers to Andrew "removing" the 2nd story water, but it was greatly biased against him.  (Do you remember that original source?)
It is my understanding that, Rebello, pg. 32, as pointed out by Bill, above, the city water was only available to that part of town AFTER Andrew & family moved in.  I believe you might be referring to the rennovations he made to the house to remove a Kitchen from thr 2nd flloor which became his & Abby's Bedroom.  The old two-family home would not have running water, per this evidence supplied here, and so the former residents might have used the old well?

Isn't there a water tank that was in the attic?  I distinctly recall reading that the officers searched Bridget's room, the unused room and the attic itself and looked inside the water tank, which used to service the second floor water supply.  Did the former 2nd floor tenants have to fill the water tank manually?  Seems like ALOT of work, toting water up to two flights of stairs!

And in response to Augusta's pears under the barn, I wonder if Bridget meant that the rotten pears just were thrown into the privy pit, which would be "under" the barn. 

What is the function of the water tank and how is it used?
Is is basically storage for water or does it Flow somehow?

Thats what I wonder too, Kat!  Did they fill the water tank and the water was gravity fed into the room(or rooms) below, was it pumped up somehow from the unused well?  Was it once supplied from a city water main?  Its confusing and it isn't made much of, so its not very clear to me how it worked, just that it ONCE was used and wasn't used any more. 

Remember those old-stype toilets with the tank near the ceiling?
Either for water pressure, or for the warmth? Perhaps the tank ensured a local reservoir or water in case of an interruption, etc.
Sort of like having a pond in a rural home; lower fire rates.

Maybe the tank was a resevoir for the second floor family's daily use, when it was a 2-family home.  The first floor family would use the cistern and the well?
The tank might have stored well-water brought up by buckets?  And used gravity to flow into the next floor down's sink?

Is it possible that tank stored RAINwater?  Seems like that would make better sense than lugging it up the stairs in buckets; however, I've never read anything that says it was storage for rainwater.  I do know that some people in those days did store rainwater for such things as washing clothes and washing their hair.

Is that what a "Cistern" is?
That would have to be outside, right?
Hey, Bill, we're groping in the dark, here!

When I was a kid on the old homestead our cistern was about 25 feet straight out the front door of our house. It was a big hole about 8 feet in diameter and maybe ten feet deep in the ground. A cement floor had been put in it but the walls were dirt. Dad knew a lot about plastering because of his carpentry work. He quickly plastered the dirt walls with several coats of plaster. This made it water tight. The cistern's vertical, round wall was capped with a cement lid (a wooden top would also work in a pinch). In the top of the lid was a 2 1/2 foot square cover. At first we lowered the bucket on a rope to get the water, but later Dad put a well pump on top of it so we didn't have to open it and let dirt fall in. From the cistern we got all the water we needed for cooking, washing, and whatever. When the cistern got low, Dad diverted water from the ditch to fill the cistern. The water was fairly clear as it had just run out of a pond. After the cistern was full, Dad treated the water, probably with chlorine. We only put water in the cistern about twice a year.

All contents copyright (C) 1996, Al Durtschi.  All rights reserved.
This information may be used by you freely for non-commercial use with my name and E-mail address attached.
Al Durtschi, E-mail: mark@waltonfeed.com
Home Page: http://waltonfeed.com/

Thanks for the great info, Joe.  But, did the Borden's have a cistern on their property or just the old unused well?

Well, the tour guides at the B&B, it has been said, tell a tale of children  being drowned in a cistern, but that may be next door at the "Kelly" house, that I'm thinking of.
But if they drowned at #96, why would they "haunt" #92?
So I have always been confused as to who had a cistern...
Anyway, didn't most places have at least a big barrel for rainwater, no matter what?

OH, Joe, I thought we were meeting your father!

Maybe the drowned children haunt #92 because #96 doesn't exist anymore?  And maybe they don't like to haunt the print shop(is that still attached to the B&B?).

Thats a good question, Kat.  Did the Borden's have a rain barrel to collect the rain water in?  As Edisto had stated in her post, most people of the era collected it as it was "soft" water compared to the "hard" water that most people get from their faucets.  Plus, it was free, something I'm sure that thrifty Andrew would appreciate.  And woman didn't wash their hair as often then,( could you imagine how long it would take to dry without a blowdryer?)so, I think that the women of the Borden household would enjoy using rain water to wash their hair in.

Father?  No, no, Kat.  That's me back in my younger days.
Joe

In "golden, olden days" many houses had rain barrels which were employed for the collection of "soft" water. They were usually beneath a downspout that led to the gutters on the roof of the building

The photographs of the Borden house that I possess do not show any gutters or downspouts.  They do show, however, a small cask or barrel in the middle of the back yard, that may have been used for this purpose.

Thank you, William!  So, there was a barrel of some sort on the property.  Can anyone post a picture of one of these photos with the barrel? 

I read about a water tank in Bridget's attic, too, Susan.  I'm still wondering about that and looking for more info on it.  (BTW, you're getting to be a real pro posting photos!)

Several years ago I thought it'd be interesting to collect rain water to do my hair with.  It did make a difference - very soft.  But I had to really strain it first.  There was dirt in it from our modern-day skies.  It's like when I was a kid, I used to eat snow in the front yard.  Try it today and you get a mouthful of poisonous-tasting stuff.

The barrel appears in the lower right hand corner of the picture of the back fence.

Thanks, Harry!  I've seen that photo before, but, never noticed the barrel before, talk about unobservant!  I lived in a house in Arizona with softened water and I remember it made your skin feel slimey after a shower, which is how, I guess, we are really supposed to feel!

Thanks, Augusta!  Oh, and by the way, don't eat the yellow snow!    I even remember as a kid, a neighbor warned us not to eat the snow as it had stuff in it that could cause stomach cramps and/or diarrhea!  Yuck!  I wonder what the snow tasted like in Lizzie's day, yeah, I know they had some pollution then, but, not as bad as ours is now!

Given the fact that Fall River was very much a factory town, I suspect they had a LOT of pollution back then.  In reading the old newspaper accounts, I'm always horrified by the number of industrial accidents reported.  When people went to work, they often were risking their very lives.

Thanks for the photo, Harry.  I thought I remembered one with a barrel.  (Yeah, right, easy for me to say now ...)  I've always thought their grass looked terrible.  I wonder who was in charge of doing it? 

I think their yard man was the same guy who does mine!

Maybe it was the "Swede" from the farm in Swansea, the one that chopped the Borden's wood for them? 

In Muriel Arnold's book, The Hands Of Time (shortened title), she  brings up the interesting information that (208) Cunningham, Manning & Stevens (these last 2 reporters) and Wixon and Buffinton (?) claimed the grass was rather high on the property Thursday, and they looked but did not find any footprints in the Borden yard--they should have found Bridget's and Andrew's.  Bridget not only supposedly walked all over with a bucket of water, she would have left step-ladder impressions in the muddy dirt around the house under the windows.  [That in itself, at first glance, should have seemed extremely suspicious, until those investigating heard that the windows had been washed that day.]

Also, though we've found that there are two witnesses to Bridget being outside (Churchill & Pettey) at 2 different 1/2 hour intervals and beginning at 9:30 possibly with Mary Doolan, Bridget claimed she saw no one around that morning.
According to Muriel Arnold, she should have seen *the man sitting in the open box buggy*,Mrs. Hart, Mrs. Manley, AND *the stranger THEY saw leaning on the Borden fence post for over 5 minutes*--AND "Mrs. Hart and Mrs. Manley never testified to seeing Bridget."

(Message last edited Jun-14th-02  4:03 AM.)

Kat, what time were these people out front of the Borden house?  And where was Bridget according to her time frame.  Something smells fishy in the state of Massachusetts! 

I think what you're smelling is the gunk under that pear tree ...

I saw something on tv yesterday about a guy who collects lawnmowers, and they showed some from Victorian times.  So they did have mowers then.  My guess is Andrew might do his own grass.  Did you get a look at his bod in the autopsy-at-home photo?  He looked pretty muscular for a man his age.  Even the doctors said he was in good physical health.  I would think a guy from the farm would come and do it, but nobody ever mentioned that at all. 

I actually had the opportunity to use an old push style mower like they had in the Victorian era.  It was heavy and clunky and hard to push!  Not to mention dangerous, with those exposed blades!!!



(Message last edited Jun-15th-02  2:31 PM.)

Wasn't the grass cut short around the house? Nothing to trample down and leave a mark. Also, with all the bystanders couldn't some of them also have walked there?
"In the yard" would not refer to the sides of the house?

Did Bridget use a stepladder when she cleaned the windows outside?  I know she did when she washed them inside, using a hand-basin.  I checked her trial testimony this morning.  She mentions using a pail and a brush on a long pole to wash the outside windows (which look to be fairly high off the ground), but she doesn't say anything about getting the stepladder until she began to wash the insides.  I remember that she threw up dippers full of water to rinse them, which might have been difficult without a ladder, but frankly it doesn't sound like a very good way of rinsing them anyway.  I have some rear windows that are high off the ground, and I have a similar pole-and-sponge affair for washing them.  I don't use a ladder, but of course I have a garden hose for rinsing them and a squeegee for drying them off.  I think it would be awkward to get up on a ladder with the long pole.  I'd probably get off balance, fall and break every bone in my body!

I think that the ladder marks were Muriel Arnold's supposition.

Ray, the remarks of Manning & Stevens, the reporters, are that the grass was high ON the Sides of the house, especillay where they walked the fence line starting at the Kelly side.

Good quote! But Bridget would not have to stand by the fence to converse with the Kelly's maid, unless it was a low conversation.
That's my assumption.

It seems as if, according to our man, Kieran, the fence on the Kelly side was only 4' 10" (T. 103).
Just the right height to lean your elbows on for a good *jaw*?

Stevens, the reporter testified at the trial, (1384...92), "I went to the yard between the Borden house and Kelly yard...Well, we looked in the grass as we (w/ Manning) walked through it;  looked to the other side of the fence, looked at the fence...
(1389)The grass was trampled considerably;  it was quite long."
Q: That is a good many people?
A: It might have been
Q: So that other people might have gone along there before you did?
A: Yes
[He got there about the same time as Mullaly & left the premises about noon.]

--There is the long grass.  With a lot of trampling.  That is opposite to what Muriel Arnold writes in Hands of Time.
This trampling could be from Bridget and Andrew. (?)

Again, I found someting interesting in this testimony...thanks Ray:

(1391-2)Q: Did you look in the vault behind the barn?
A: Looked into it
Q: Before you came to the barn?
A: Yes
Q: You had to take off a piece of board to do it?
A: I am under the impression the boards had been moved
Q: The boards were removed?
A: I don't remember any boards myself

--What are they talking about?

The vault behind the barn?  What vault?  Are they speaking code for under the privy?  I've never heard this bit before, you do learn something new every day! 

Someplace I've read that the "privy vault" was searched, so that appears to be what was meant.

Ooooo, in the summer heat, to have to go looking into that outdoor privy.  Blech!  Not a very appetizing thought. 

Yes, that's my understanding as well. The "vault" was the privy. And they mean in the back of the barn INSIDE.  Not outside, in back of the barn.

The privy, based on the drawings in Rebello (page 48), was opposite the stairs that led up to the loft.

I don't think I'd want the job of searching the "vault" either. 

(Message last edited Jun-19th-02  12:00 PM.)

Cunningham, the person who finally phoned the police that Thursday morning, testified at the Trial, pg. 424-9, about the yard:

Q.  Describe what you did after you got in to the Borden premises.
A.  I walked up to the front of the house, passed the front gate, and jumped over the front fence, and the other two gentlemen followed me.

Q.  Go on and describe what you did then.
A.  We went round the south side of the house, that is near Dr. Kelly's,---went in between the Borden house and the doctor's house in the yard.

Q.  What was the character of the ground there?
A.  Well, before we stepped in we noticed that there were no foot-prints in the grass, and the grass was a little deep, and we looked around through the grass thinking we might find something, which we did not.
..................................

Q.  Did you look along in the grass by the Kelly fence to see if there were any marks of any passing through that grass?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Did not see any?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Did you know Bridget walked across that grass along that plot that morning to see if she could see anything there?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Did not know anything of that?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Did not know anything of her or the man, John Morse, being in that yard?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  You could not see anything in the grass which would indicate that any person had been through there?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Did you look very carefully?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  You were really hunting for the criminal, weren't you?
A.  Yes, sir.

--He was there with Manning & Stevens (whose testimony is in an earlier post...but much later in the trial...)
--Maybe Muriel Arnold had the benefit of picking and choosing the testimony she wished to prove her point...and I don't blame her.  This case is a mass of contradictions!

I haven't read that book or transcript, but will apply some common sense about their testimony.
I do not doubt Bridget's testimony about a conversation with Dr. Kelly's maid. It would be SOP unless they were on the outs. "Gabbing instead of working" is as common now as then?

1) Did anyone else independently corroborate their testimony?
2) What time of the day did that happen? I wonder if anyone else could have walked there by the afternoon.
3) What do the pictures show? Was it the custom to keep the grass cut every week? Was there really long grass along the fence that day?

I also do not disbelieve Lizzie's testimony about walking in the back yard, eating pears. What about the condition of the grass there?

The picture that I saw (taken when?) shows close cut grass. In fact, given the hot weather (no rain) grass should not be growing tall.
What is your experience and opinion?

Apparently, Cunningham did walk around by the pear tree(s) and is asked if he saw footprints or tracks or marks of passage of a person, whatever you want to call it.
He replied "No". but when asked if he was especially looking FOR that at the pear tree(s), admitted at that spot in the yard, he wasn't.
BUT we do have Manning, Stevens & Cunningham says the grass was longish, so that's enough for me.  If Andrew cut his own grass, he had been ill a few days and probably taking care of the lawn (not knowing he would be having so much company) was probably the last thing on his list.  (My joke...)
These men were there very soon after the Cunningham phone call.  "Within minutes."  Cunningham was on the scene from the first, seeing Bridget out and about, also Mrs. Churchill AND Allen and Bowen arriving.  That's HIS time frame.  Up until then, only Andrew, and Bridget had been in the yard, according to a witness...Andrew was seen by Churchill, and Bridget was supposedly seen by Mrs. Kelly's girl yakking over the fence about 9:30, BUT for THAT we have no corroboration.  It is assumed that it happened, though, as it could have been easily DISproved...we just don't have the witness record to that from Mary.

I find it ambigueous that the question put to Cunningham is that *Bridget had been out there to see if she could see anything there(?)*--not, "Did you know she had been trampling the grass washing windows?"

The question is:  Does tallish grass bounce back up after walking or standing on it?  I never really noticed...

(Message last edited Jun-20th-02  5:57 PM.)

From the yard photo, it looks like the grass in longish in spots, but, there are also bare patches in the lawn.  It looks as though it would be difficult to see much of anything on that hodge-podge of a lawn.  I guess Andrew's slop pail fertilizer and Bridget's breakfast didn't do much for the grass?