Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: Armchair incest

1. "Armchair incest"
Posted by joe on Jul-9th-02 at 2:36 PM

After re-reading Armchair Detective (thanks, Kat!) for the umteenth time, I find that the argument for incest as a motive stand up, even if it is speculative.  I found an incest incident in my family tree that happened c. 1849.  Uncle Benjamin (her dad's brother) was about 40 yrs old and his neice was younger than 14 when the incest first took place.  When she turned up pregnant at 15, a "bastardy trial" took place and was published in court records.  My point is that it happened, they "coupled" according to the record "frequently", and was hushed up for quite some time.

Here's a rather recent abstract about the problem of incest:

COLDREY, Barry M. (1996): 'The sexual abuse of children: the historical perspectives', in: Studies 85, pp. 370-380.
      Abstract: Sexual abuse of young people by trusted adults has a long history. In the English-speaking world since about 1800 it has been a matter of serious professional and public concern during only two periods: from the 1880's until World War I, and since about 1975. During these times of - for various reasons - public awareness and interest, sexual abuses of minors were widely reported, cover-ups were discouraged and condemned, and solutions to the problem were eagerly sought.« [Source: Historical Abstracts]


2. "Re: Armchair incest"
Posted by rays on Jul-9th-02 at 5:04 PM
In response to Message #1.

I really don't believe that incest was covered up between WW I and 1975. What evidence or corroboration is there for this statement? Could this explain certain genetic problems that occur then disappear in a family?

The movie "Chinatown" is only a movie; its real scandal (?) is about buying up property to provide water for Los Angeles. If you think this was bad, why don't you look up what was done in Ulster county NY in the 1870s: whole towns wiped off the map to provide water for New York city! Money (and power) talk.


3. "Re: Armchair incest"
Posted by Kat on Jul-9th-02 at 8:36 PM
In response to Message #1.

The Lizzie Borden Quarterly has featured articles on the subject as a possible background motive for the crimes.

The book:  PROCEEDINGS, The Legend 100 Years After The Crime -A Conference On The Lizzie Borden Case, Bristol Community College, Fall River, Mass., [Aug. 3 -5, 1992], published 1993, has several papers that expound on the same theory:

The first section-

PSYCHOLOGICAL AND WOMEN'S ISSUES

Lizzie, Violator or Victim........Grenier

Was Lizzie the Victim of Incest?.........McNamara, M.D.

Lizzie Borden, Anxious Attachment And Forty Whacks:  A Systemic Exploration Of Incest And Parricide.......Kane, Ph.D.

The World Owed Her:  Lizzie Borden's Shoplifting......Williams, Ph.D..

It seems that the theory was prominent in the 90's as an explanation for dysfunction in the Borden family. 


4. "Re: Armchair incest"
Posted by joe on Jul-9th-02 at 9:30 PM
In response to Message #2.

Ray, I believe the article points out that incest has been seriously studied by professionals for only two periods:  from the 1880's until World War I, and since about 1975.  There is no indication that it was "covered up" during those two timeframes, Ray.  It has been, and remains a serious family problem.  As for "evidence", I haven't read this particular document, but the subject has been covered in many Abnormal Psych books. 
During the period from the late 1800s until WW I, there was a surge of empirical psychology and psychoanalysis because of works of Frued, Jung, Adler and Horney.  Then that field turned to rational behavioral analysis with the onsite of Carl Rogers, the gestaltists and the behaviorist schools.  Then in the post-1975 era until the present, as Kat points out in  Post 3, a new surge of activity began. 
I don't think that incest is necessarily a "genetic" problem.  Perhaps, there is a tendency toward it in certain families.  I do believe, however, that it happens in "the best of families" and the "worst of families".  May have something or other to do with certain masculine traits that manifest themselves.  I'm thinking especially of a man who is so domineering that he has his family frightened for their safety.
Although I have no evidence for this, I sense that Andrew Borden might have been this kind of man.  He loved his family, I believe.  And I also believe he felt that he could "lord over" them.  "Borden The Protector".  He took care of his family.  Sure, right.
I didn't care for "Chinatown", either, by the way!



 

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