1. "Of Chimneys and Cisterns"
Posted by harry on Jun-15th-02 at 10:46 AM

On another thread "Andrew Borden Committed Suicide" the subject of a cistern is discussed. Charles H. Bryant, the mason, who tore apart the chimneys at the 92nd St. house gave an interview. He describes his experience and makes some comments on the case. This is from the August 13, 1892 Evening Standard, page 1:

"Before saying anything about what I saw in the Borden house, I wish to call attention to a point that seems not to have reached the inquest," said mason Charles H. Bryant.

"John Donnelly, the hackman, was among the first to enter the barn, and walked all over the loft.  Then up goes Officer Medley and takes a walk around and goes before the coroner with the highly important information that he examined the dust-covered floor of the barn very carefully and could find no tracks, although he said he could easily distinguish his own.

"Now, if he could distinguish his own so easily, why didn't he find John Donnelly's, and if he couldn't find John Donnelly's heavy prints, how could he expect to find Lizzie Borden's? The air is full of theories. I'd like to hear a few people explain that."

Bryant was engaged to break open the chimneys of the Borden house in search of a concealed weapon, was sitting in the Wilbur House soon after noon, and was easily led into telling what he saw and heard and the conclusions he reached.

"I was engaged as an expert," said Bryant, "and carried out the instructions of the authorities.  I do not know Lizzie nor Emma Borden, one from the other, but both were in the house and gave me every assistance.  Indeed, if anything, I thought they were over anxious that I should make a complete examination.

"So far as the chimneys were concerned I saw at a glance that it was useless to tear them open, for I could see through every flue in the house, and I told them so, but still the district attorney told me to go ahead, and I dug into them.

"That finished, I asked Miss Borden if there were any flues in the garret, such as might have been put in for a stove at some time, and she said she did not know, but I had better look.  I made a careful examination, but found nothing.

"Then we made inquiries about an alleged cistern said to be in the cellar and the girls said there had been one at some time, but it was an old wooden affair, which had doubtless been filled up---at any rate she had not seen it for a long time.  They told us what part of the cellar it had been in, and we pried around there for some time with a crowbar and found nothing.

"During the whole time the girls, as I say, were at our service and expressed every willingness to show us through the house, giving us the keys to all the rooms.

"I was in every room of the house except the front entry and observed things closely all the while.  I may say that the house is furnished very plainly---notably so.  The ordinary American  mechanic with an ordinary salary has his house furnished as well.  There was nothing in the house to indicate the wealth of the people who lived there."




(Message last edited Jun-15th-02  10:51 AM.)

Great sleuthing, Harry!  So, it seems that old 92 Second street was given a more thorough going over than we've been led to believe!  And, lo and behold, there was a cistern after all.  This is so great, it gives us just that little bit more of information on the case! 

Once again, the house was inspected "down to a bump in the wallpaper". No incrimination evidence was found.
The police and authorities did a thorough job. To say otherwise would be to just try to convict Lizzie upon their own claimed incompetence "we didn't really do a complete search".

Didn't T Kieran testify that the front closets could have concealed a man? And no one could have seen Abby laying behind that bed?

Kieran would be speculating beyond his expertise, as to the closet (s).

He is the only one who said the body of Abby could not be seen, and he was not there on Thursday.

His expertise is based on common sense available to anyone who wants it. He had his assistant lie down where Abby lay. Taller than Abby, he still could not be seen from the door. Those who visit the house can always try this experiment for themselves.

Ditto for the front closets. Just step inside and close the door. If you are about 5'6" and 150 pounds (assumed size of Wm S Borden).

You mean you've NEVER tried this out on your visits!!!

I haven't been to the house, but I was just at the trial, and Kieran only said that he could not see a body on the floor of the guest room, on the 16th, from Lizzie's bedroom doorway (110-111).

(110) He saw a body "under the bed, as I went upstairs, I saw the man stretched on the floor [experimenting].  I did not see him in any other way....from the center of the stairs which brought my eye a little above the level of the floor.  From that point I could see under the bed, and see this man, or part of him."

--It's interesting to find this out, because I thought Kieran DID NOT see a body.

Justice Mason ruled (107-8)) Kieran COULD answer about the front entry closet.  With the door slightly ajar the man hiding inside [experiment] could not be seen by him from 8-10' away...butwhen as soon as the man inside moved, he saw him.

--Now, for the fun part:  Kieran, the *master measurer* does not know how tall he, himself, is!!!

That's Kieran...

(73) Churchill, in Moody's opening statement, see's a body under the bed from the stairs.
(249) Bridget saw the body under the bed from the stairs.
(308) Dr. Bowen, at door, looked OVER the bed and saw body.
(436) Officer Allen "could look under the bed and see her (Abby)."

Can you revise your notes now?  I just did.  Thanks for leading me up this way...

Dont forget the Morse/Mrs. Brigham experiment (Trial, part 2, page 1591):

Q.  Who was the person with whom you made the experiment?
A.  Mr. Morse.

Q.  What did he do?
A.  Laid down on the floor.

Q.  Where?
A.  Between the dressing case and the bed.

Q.  How did you stand,---did you stand in the hall and in front of that door to see whether you could see him or not?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Could you see him?
A.  I could not see him from the hall. A person of my height could not see him from the doorway. When I advanced a few feet into the room, I saw him.

You know, I have to wonder with all these experiments going on: was the patch of bloodstained carpet cut entirely out of the floor?  Was it covered over with a throw rug or something?  Yuck!  All these people lying down where poor Abby was found and possibly in her dried blood? 

Yea, the Mrs. Brigham/Morse experiment was creepy.  I always wondered which of them instigated that little re-enactment.
I think Brigham was desperate to help Lizzie.
BUT we are not told how tall she is (to see over the bed or not-- like Bowen did)...nor is she asked if she saw a body from the stairs.
I suppose those two were trying to prove that from where Lizzie *laughed on the stairs* she could NOT see Abby's body.  This must have been a major point to tackle in the public's perception, by her friends, that Lizzie-the-lady did NOT show amusement upon the return of her father by laughing at the corpse of her step-mother....implying she was in her doorway to her room, or on the landing, out of sight of that gruesome aspect?

Mrs. Brigham says the experiment was completed between the morning and afternoon sessions of one of the days of the preliminary hearing.  (Prelim.: August 25- Sept. 1, 1892)

I believe the carpet was cut out and taken away as evidence for Prof. Wood, but when?

(Message last edited Jun-19th-02  3:35 AM.)

When I stayed in the Borden house guestroom in 1998, the minimum stay was two nights. We had several pieces of luggage.  When we were checking in, we were told that day tours would take place the following day, so that we couldn't leave luggage in our room (no closet there).  We would have to move out in the morning, just as if we were leaving, and move back in after the tours were over.  I thought I had found a partial solution, which was to stash my fairly flat hang-up bag under the bed.  I mentioned at breakfast that I had done so, and I was told I couldn't do that, because part of the tour was to go part-way up the stairs and look into the guestroom to point out that Abby's body could have been seen from that position.  The bed that's in the room now is not, of course, the same one that was there in 1892; however, it's a very similar type.  It was really possible to see only a little strip of something under the bed, which probably would have looked like a pile of cloth.  However, since Bridget and Mrs. Churchill were looking for Abby, I'm sure they were able to guess what that pile of cloth was.

Wow, tht must have been some stay at the B&B!  Edisto, did you do any experimenting of your own while there?  I honestly don't know if I could sleep in a room where someone was murdered, I'm too sensitive to that kind of thing!