Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)

1. "The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by augusta on Jun-30th-02 at 12:10 PM

I find it interesting that John Morse is the only one who tries to say the cellar door was open the morning of the murders.  He hedges on it at the Preliminary Hearing, but is recalled and admits that after thinking about it, he did tell Mr. Holmes he said that.  (Only because he was caught on it.) But he covers his hide to say that he is not totally sure about the door.  That makes no sense, since he was sure enough about it to tell Mr. Holmes it was open.  Was Mr. Morse on morphine too and subject to hallucinations?

When asked about the spring lock on the Borden's front door, I thought he was going to answer that it sometimes did not lock.  And he did.

I wonder, did anyone else say that about the Borden's front door?  That sometimes the spring lock failed to lock?  Bridget talked about it in her testimony.  Hm.


2. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by edisto on Jun-30th-02 at 1:00 PM
In response to Message #1.

Not being facetious, but could it be that the spring lock was sometimes known to fail, and that this fact was known to those who used the door?


3. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by edisto on Jun-30th-02 at 1:02 PM
In response to Message #2.

-Oh, I believe Jerome Borden came calling a day or so after the murders and found that he could enter the house by simply pressing the door open, although the spring lock was supposed to be "on."  I'd have to check for his testimony at one of the proceedings.


4. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by edisto on Jun-30th-02 at 8:25 PM
In response to Message #3.

I got a chance to review the trial testimony today.  Jerome C. Borden, a cousin of Andrew's, came to the Borden house on Friday, August 5, 1892, possibly to pay a condolence call.  The defense seemingly called him to attest to the fact that he was able to enter the Borden house through the front door, even though the spring lock was supposedly fastened.  Actually, his testimony encountered so many objections by the prosecution that I don't know what was proved.  He mentioned that there was a policeman stationed in the yard, but he was still able to simply open the front door and walk in.  Of course, that might have meant the family (Lizzie and Emma) was so confident that the police were protecting them that they left the door unlocked.
This is another case where the defense was less than stellar in its approach.


5. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Kat on Jul-1st-02 at 1:19 AM
In response to Message #4.

More On The Door...

The Trial, Mrs. Marianna Holmes testifying for defense:

Q.  Were you about that same time present when any experiments were made with the front door in regard to the spring lock?
A.  I am not quite sure about that. I waited on the door and had a good many experiments myself with it.

Q.  Did you make some yourself?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  What did you find in regard to that spring lock?
A.  I found that unless the bolt was used that the spring lock was not sure. Unless the door was shut with a bang you could not depend upon the spring lock working.

Q.  You mean by that it would not catch the lock?
A.  Yes, sir.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Q.  (By Mr. Knowlton.)  When was that?
A.  That was when I was waiting on the door after I came to the house.

Q.  What Officer was outside?
A.  I don't know any of the officers except a few. I don't remember who was outside.

Q.  There was a bolt there?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And when that was used there was not any trouble about the door?
A.  That is what I said.


6. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by augusta on Jul-1st-02 at 9:49 AM
In response to Message #5.

Good stuff, guys.  Which leads me to ponder:  When Lizzie came in the front door on Wednesday nite after her visit to Alice Russell, Morse said he heard someone come in and assumed it was Lizzie.  If this was so with the spring lock, and I think that it was, he didn't say Lizzie slammed the door to make it lock.  Lizzie must have known that 'trick' to the door.  Did she leave it unlocked that nite?  Or did she use all 3 locks that nite?  We know the next morning Andrew couldn't get in, so it was locked up tight by then. 

I don't think the Bordens - at least at night - ever went to bed with the front door accidentally unlocked (with the possible exception of Wednesday nite if Lizzie did it on purpose).  They all must have known about that tricky spring lock.  That was probably why there were 3 locks on the door.  People always say that those 3 locks show the excessiveness of their locking up, but if the one lock was not reliable, I'd do the same. 

I would think that in the daytime, with visitors coming and going, once in a while it could have been in an unlocked state by accident.  The fam & Bridget normally used the side door to go in and out, correct?


7. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by harry on Jul-1st-02 at 10:37 AM
In response to Message #6.

I thought they mainly used the side door. At least Andrew. Either way it must have been a pain. The hook on the screendoor meant that someone inside had to open the door. The front door needed a key or keys, a nuisance if one had a package in his/her hands.

When Andrew returned that morning, Mrs. Kelly (sometimes spelled Kelley) testified that she saw him coming around from the side of the house. This would lead me to believe that he first tried to gain entrance by the side door.

It makes me wonder why Andrew didn't call through the screen door "Hello, anybody home. Unhook the door", instead of going around to the front.  Bridget testified she was doing a window in the sitting room when she heard a fumbling at the front door.  She certainly would have heard a call from the side door.

(Message last edited Jul-2nd-02  12:09 AM.)


8. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by rays on Jul-1st-02 at 12:58 PM
In response to Message #7.

If culture and custom hasn't changed much in a century, most people that I know (but not all, depending on the layout) will come in the back kitchen door rather than the front living room (parlor) door.
Simple practicality! Not to bring in dirt, etc.


9. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Kat on Jul-1st-02 at 11:37 PM
In response to Message #7.

Gosh!  It took me until NOW to get here, starting from the beginning!  You guys are really going to town!  Great stuff, really!

These last three posts are interesting.

The idea that since Lizzie didn't slam the front door, then it was not locked after all...so as to let someone come in later?

The question that why didn't Andrew call out at the screen door?
(Remember Lizzie said she was in the kitchen at that time).

The habits noted by Rays.

All I can surmise is that, as stated, extra locks were added BECAUSE that spring lock didn't work properly.  But if one were to be in the habit of locking all the locks at bedtime, then the other 2 locks WOULD make UP for the faulty lock, as stated, but then the spring lock is not important to be sure it is locked at night, if reliance is indeed on the other 2 locks.  Maybe it was tactless to slam the front door at night.  I hesitate to do that myself.  (Inmates might have a *trick* to the door, like I do...I push real hard on it until it *clicks*  I only do this at night.  During the day [who me?] I *slam away*!)

Maybe Andrew DID call out at the screen door, and was so disconcerted by no answer that when he rounded the house he was totally ignorant of Mrs. Kelly walking by ready to say hello if he looked up, becuse he was fixated on why no one answered his "Halloo".  This could imply that he was not MEANT to enter that day by the kitchen.  There was a reason...and if so, then Bridget was in on it, to also ignore the screen door summons.


10. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by augusta on Jul-5th-02 at 9:32 PM
In response to Message #9.

Hmm.  Interesting stuff.  Harry's right - that hook was usually locked.  So when Andrew went up to it upon his arrival home that morning (and I believe he did, since as Harry said Mrs. Kelley saw him come from that way) he must have done his 'usual' - knocked or called into the house to get someone to open it.  Which makes me wonder two things:

1)  Would Bridget have heard him from her window work inside?
                        and
2)  Was Lizzie really supposed to be in the kitchen then?  Would Andrew not be able to see her from the door?  There's no way Andrew would have stood there and saw Lizzie and if she didn't unlock it, he'd simply go to the front. 

Ah - no, Lizzie was UPstairs when Andrew came to the front door.  (Whether on the stairs or the landing, Bridget did not SEE her, she only heard her.)  Remember?  She laughed when Bridget said "Pshaw" when letting him in. 

Okay, so we're left with question #1. 

I had always thought that the Bordens usually did not use all 3 locks on the front door in the daytime.  That's why Andrew thought he could get in just with one key.  I thought Lizzie had locked them all, so the murder of Abby could take place uninterrupted.  It had always seemed to me that Bridget didn't expect to have to go thru the trouble with the locks, either.  It seemed like the door was not in its normal state that morning.


11. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Kat on Jul-6th-02 at 1:23 AM
In response to Message #10.

Lizzie was on the stairs?
Lizzie was in the kitchen?

Lizzie DECIDED she was in the kitchen when Andrew returned.  I  mimicked her least plausable story.

Bridget answered the door?  We don't even know that for sure.


12. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Kat on Jul-6th-02 at 2:55 AM
In response to Message #3.

Lizzie at her INQUEST HEARING
--as to the locked front door Thursday morning (& as an extra bonus-included is her assertion that she was in the kitchen when Andrew returned...)

Q. And during that time, so far as you know, the front door was locked?
A. So far as I know.

Q-41    Q. And never was unlocked at all?
A. I don't think it was.

Q. Even after your father came home, it was locked up again?
A. I don't know whether she [Bridget] locked it up again after that or not.

Q. It locks itself?
A. The spring lock opens.

Q. It fastens it so it cannot be opened from the outside?
A. Sometimes you can press it open.

Q. Have you any reason to suppose the spring lock was left so it could be pressed open from the outside?
A. I have no reason to suppose so.

Q. Nothing about the lock was changed before the people came?
A. Nothing that I know of.

Q. What were you doing in the kitchen when your father came home?
A. I think I was eating a pear when he came in.

--Just previous to this, Lizzie claims that Bridget said that Andrew had "forgotten his key..."


13. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Kat on Jul-7th-02 at 2:23 AM
In response to Message #12.

So far we have 2 Bordens and a Holmes [and a Morse?] testifying that there was something wrong with the spring lock on the front door.

Is that enough for us to believe?

(Message last edited Jul-7th-02  2:26 AM.)


14. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Kat on Jul-7th-02 at 9:20 PM
In response to Message #13.

Well, tally up another Borden decrying the effienciency of the front spring lock.
Inquest, 114, Emma's last page:
"Once in a while we would find it did not (work), but very seldom."

3 Borden's and a Holmes [and a Morse?--haven't verified that, no page # given]

Anyway, the point now seems to be, if we ponder it at all, that the family wasn't *So Locked Up* during the day, after all.

A front door where the spring lock may be faulty and relied upon during the day...AND a measley HOOK on the side screen door that anybody could get into...even just by cutting a little hole in the screen.  (I think Harry pointed this out).

Besides this ISN'T excessive when you stop to think of a household of women, in a neighborhood comprised of possibly casual labourers at the Stables and Stone yards surrounding the Borden property...

So now what do we think?

(Message last edited Jul-7th-02  9:23 PM.)


15. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Susan on Jul-7th-02 at 9:54 PM
In response to Message #14.

But, the only way anyone would know about that front door would be if they had been a (frequent?) vistor to the Borden house.  I have to wonder if maybe someone was to knock at the front door, would that be enough to cause it to open?

And the hook on the screen door is on the light side for a door fastener, but, who would know unless they had access to the Borden's side yard on the walkway.  They'd have to be pretty brazen or crazy to risk being seen on the Churchill side there.  I wonder if you could see from the sidewalk if the side door was open or not? 


16. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Kat on Jul-7th-02 at 11:01 PM
In response to Message #15.

It could be any visitor.
It could be any one who was TOLD.
It could be (for the side door) a frequent tradesman, ice, milk, groceries, or anyone THEY TOLD.

It could be a proweler like Lizzie said she saw several times, checking out the premises, the family routines...(especially since she made a point of saying one person she saw once seemed to be hanging around that side door...)

We don't know if Mrs. Churchill's family or boarders knew about the front door slamming.  They might know.  Also they would know about the hooked screen...and there were like, what?  7 people living at Churchill's?  ...And anyone They Told...


17. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Susan on Jul-8th-02 at 11:48 AM
In response to Message #16.

Yes, thats true, Kat, I hadn't quite thought of it that way.  So, it would have to be someone "new" that was told as all the people in the know about the doors hadn't done anything over the years. 


18. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Kat on Jul-8th-02 at 8:06 PM
In response to Message #17.

Well, they might have used this knowledge of lax security at the house to their advantage ANYtime.

Let's say one of the boarders at Churchill's knew a guy who just got out of prison and got pumped for info about the neighborhood, without realizing it.  It could be anyone ready to capitalize on an opportunity.

It could be someone who held a grievance for a Number of years, as we have been taught that Lizzie & Emma HAD...And we accepted THAt scenario...So why not someone we haven't discussed as yet?


19. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Susan on Jul-9th-02 at 1:04 AM
In response to Message #18.

But, no robbery.  They would really have to have a smoldering hate of Andrew or Abby or both! 


20. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by Kat on Jul-9th-02 at 1:31 AM
In response to Message #19.

Good point.  BUT, there HAD been a robbery....in the past.

And everyone knew Andrew was rich.  Someone once pointed out that rich people were sometimes thought to keep large sums of money hidden in their homes...

This time maybe the person freaked  (?)  Something went wrong?


21. "Re: The Doors (Not the Rock Group)"
Posted by rays on Jul-9th-02 at 11:16 AM
In response to Message #15.

Most storm or screen doors are not securely fastened. They often use an aluminum catch that can easily be pulled open by an adult or strong child. Do NOT believe a tiny piece of aluminum is secure!!!

A combination screen / storm window can also be pried up with a screwdriver. I have this on good authority, since I never broke into anyone's house myself.



 

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