1. ""I  Dreamed Of You"--Letter From Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Sep-7th-02 at 7:47 PM

For some odd reason, when I got up today, I was looking through my newly filed items (Of course once I file, I can't FIND anything anymore!), for print-outs of some of my past posts.  I wanted to collect some of my reviews.  Well, they weren't anywhere, but I went straight to a xerox copy (not such a good one) of the Letter Lizzie wrote a FRIEND that says. "I dreamed of you the other night but I dare not put my dream on paper."

Some people seem to think this is written to a lady friend.  The source from which this xerox came is not determined on this copy, but the letter IS attributed to the FRHS.

It is dated 1897, and the caption the author put under the copy says:  "From Lizzie's letter to a female friend."

Then the interesting thing happened.  I leaned over and picked up the PROCEEDINGS book, and opened it directly to the chapter near the back, entitled "100 Years of Fascination" by Robert Flynn.  Page 299 :  "Spiering declared Lizzie a lesbian based on a letter she wrote to an unnamed person.  There is ample evidence uncovered by the late David Kent that the lesbian letter was written to a man."  (This was the fastest research question to ever come to my hand!)

I got up (this time) and retrieved Forty Whacks from the shelf in the bedroom.  I looked around in there but saw no reference to this letter or any reseach uncovering new information relative to this subject.

I wondered if anyone knew of this research by Kent, where would it be, and can you decipher the handwriting to disclose the rest of this letter?
PS:  If the letter went to "My dear Friend", how does Spiering know it is to a woman?

I remember reading that letter & wondering why there was supposed
to be something sexual in her saying that she didn't dare to put
her dream on paper. That line alone could mean anything in the world
even if it was to another woman. It didn't seem to take much to be shocking to the Victorians anyway, they say a glimpse of stocking was enough to do it.

The letter is purported to be quoted in full in Radin, page 228 (paperback edition).

MY DEAR FRIEND:
Where are you, how are you and what are you doing? I dreamed of you the other night, but I do not dare to put my dreams on paper. Have you been away and has your little niece been to visit you? We have been here all summer. I spend much of the time on the piazza in my steamer chair reading and building castles in the air. I hope you have been away and are well and strong now. Do you expect to work this fall and are you going to New York? Every time we pass your corner the pony wants to turn down. The weather has been so warm and full of thunderstorms I am quite ready for fall. I should be very glad to hear from you.
L. A. BORDEN

Had to see what a "steamer chair" was, so i found this one:





(Message last edited Sep-7th-02  11:03 PM.)

When she asks 'Do you expect to work this fall' that makes it seem
like it was to a man, most women didn't "work" then unless they really had to, right?

Thanks, Harry!  A steamer chair looks like the 1890s version of a chaise lounge chair, just without the plastic webbing!  I hope it had a cushion on it! 

I think the tone sounds more like its to a man as well. It would be nice to know where Kent tracked it down.

(Message last edited Sep-8th-02  12:04 AM.)

A secret romance of Lizbeth's?    With a man?!!!

(Message last edited Sep-8th-02  12:10 AM.)

I've seen lots of movies where there's rows of these on ships (hence the name "steamer" I suppose). I wonder if Lizzie "acquired" hers from the Fall River Line. She'd have a hard time smuggling that though.

Didn't they toss them over the side to use as rafts when the Titanic was going down?

She seems to be a coquette, I wonder what it was like having
The Lizzie Borden a flirtin' with ya?

Thanks you guys & thanks Harry!
Stef says now we may have to write Mr. Flynn, as he and Mr. Kent were Good friends.

Radin has another letter cited as dated Dec.12, 1896, from Lizzie, apologizing for some new rumor that had cropped up & included this friend she was writing to.  (238-hardbound).  Each letter alludes to poor health:
"I hope you are well and strong now."--"I dreamed" letter
"Take care of yourself, so you can get well."--the apology letter.

The author makes no suggestion of a connection, and after quoting the full "Dream" letter, and decrying Lizbeth's tendency to salute her letters to "My Dear Friend", changes the subject entirely.

Well, we are left with the mystery, for now...

However, in answer as to women working back then, all Lizzie's friends worked, but can't really specify who STayed her friend after the trial.

Rebello, pg. 64, lists her friends she was supposed to meet at Marion that summer, 1892:
Miss Louise Holmes Handy-- a school teacher
Miss Isabel J. Fraser--  a school teacher
Miss Anna Covell Holmes-- a school teacher
Miss Mary Louisa Holmes-- a former teacher
Miss Elizabeth Murray Johnston-- A principal
Miss Annie Childs Bush-- a school teacher
Miss Louise O. Remington-- a school teacher
Miss Mabel H. Remington-- a school teacher
Miss Alice Lydia Buck-- daughter of Rev. Augustus Buck
and 2 married ladies and 2 young girls.

Alice Russell worked, and Lizbeth's later friends worked:  Helen Leighton as a nurse and Nance O'Neil as an actress, and Miss Gertrude M. Baker as an English teacher, and Grace Hartley Howe, Lizbeth's cousin, was appointed the first woman postmaster in Fall River and served for 14 years.  (Rebello, pg.s 330-333)

It looks like most of her women friends were teachers, that might
explain what 'work this fall' means. But that could still be a male
friend who was a teacher. If Lizzie was friends with women who worked I wonder why she didn't work? It doesn't seem like Andrew would have
griped about her making her own money. She seemed to try to fill her
life with church work and travel, if things in that house were so
miserable a job would have kept her away most of the day.

Kim:  Maybe she was too tired out from ironing those hankies, and making her bed.

This xerox copy I have also reproduces a letter on stationary which has printed on the header:  7 French Street.

This second letter, however, has completely DIFFERENT handwriting.  It too, is hard to decipher, but mainly because the xerox quality is poor.  The writing seems legible, to the point of Jr. High standards:  (rounded letters).

I am assuming it is from Emma...it certainly is not from Lizzie.
There is only the top 1/2 of two pages of this letter, so I'm not sure of the context.  (We've had this in file for 20 years).

Does anyone know from which book these come?  Possibly British, large print. a Compilation, or Anthology... (?)

(Message last edited Sep-8th-02  4:36 PM.)

Swingin' & whackin' cats will wear you out also.

(Message last edited Sep-8th-02  4:27 PM.)

The phrase "but I do not dare to put my dreams on paper" could indicate that Lizzie is unwilling to disclose in writing any of her dreams, not just the one from "the other night." Lizzie experienced the glare of both positive and negative publicity and probably learned to be careful about reporting anything personal that could not later be called back. Especially if some of her dreams were really nightmares.

Yes, you could be right.
That is a very sensitive insight.
Going back and reading it again, I now see she is "building castles in the air"...dreaming of what might be?  Or what might have been?
And yes, here we are reading her mail.  Her dreams were her own, weren't they...

When she was not daring to put her dreams on paper she could be a  Victorian lady pretending to be bold & that her thoughts would be shocking. And her dreams being nightmares, in the note to her neighbor about the noisy bird she said she was 'nervous', that says so much & so little, what was she 'nervous' about? The memories of having killed her parents? Or fear of that if she didn't do it than the 'real killers' were free?
I don't think she did it herself (or had someone do it), but if she allowed someone to do it & listened to them (her parents--grouchy or not) being killed, I think that seems worse than doing it yourself.

(Message last edited Sep-9th-02  1:29 PM.)

I found the letter from Emma to her dressmaker in Spiering's LIZZIE, 1984 (paperback), pg. 263-4:

"Mrs. Cummings
I received your message last evening and think you are very kind to remember me.
I hope to be in the country some this Summer, so think one dress will be all I need;  I think an India or China silk as useful as any thin dress, and if you will bring patterns of something with dark ground, something suitable for church wear and for calling.  I will go to see you the middle of the week.  I suppose you will be home by that time.
I hope this wind will go down before night, that you will have a pleasant and safe passage to New York.
Truly yours,
Emma L. Borden

March 23, 1894"

--Notice several things about this letter?  And can anyone scan the original, without damaging the spine (don't do that on our account, please!)  Just to SEE the handwriting...

I'll try to send it -- but I had to reduce the pixels to make it fit the board.  Let me know how it looks to you.

THAT WAS PERFECTOMUNDO, as my California brother would say!

Thanks a bunch, Diana!

Thanks Diana. Nice job.

I'm surprised Lizzie didn't have a big "B" monogram on her stationary. Or did she later on? Wasn't there one on the front door?

Things to notice about this letter :

-Emma goes to the country in the Summer
-Emma plans a dress for 3 months hence
-Emma requires SILK
-"Patterns with dark ground" implies MATERIAL, or bolts of FABRIC, just as Edisto surmised.
-Emma Intends to go to CHURCH
-Emma Intends to go Calling
-Then there is that *Jr. High-type* rounded handwriting...

Thanks, Kat!    I actually have the Spiering book in question, just no scanner.

Actually, Diana did a great job.
Now I have a scanner but I'm afraid to use it.
Used it one day only and it didn't like associating with my Mac.

Now, I'd like to know if she has access to that newspaper drawing of Abby on the floor w/o the bed and WIth the handkerchief.  I can't find that picture anywhere!  It's like I dreamed it!

What-all do youse guys think about that Emma letter?

Is this the picture you've been looking for? William was kind enough to send this to me.

I don't know where the door came from, but that first step down is a killer.

(Message last edited Sep-10th-02  1:52 AM.)

OH!  You guys are Too Cool!  Thanks!

Do you think from this we may ascertain the objects in the room?

Yeah, but, that blankety-blank thing on the wall above where the camp chair was is missing!  Cool illustration, I have never seen this one before, very detailed!

What I get from Emma's letter is that she lived her life frugally, 1 new dress for the season?  That she got out and about more than we ever heard about, i.e. she had a life!  She was very organized, 3 months to plan for a dress fitting!  Its a nice little slice of her life preserved for us to see, though, it is difficult to read in the Spiering book, its sooooooo small. 

Harry:
This from "A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's", Williams et al.,page 234:

"The house has a breakfast room and well-equipped kitchen.  Both are comfortable and well lighted. A door from the kitchen leads to the outside.  The glass in the upper half of this door has a subdued but definite letter "B" cut into it."

I may be wrong, but I believe it is more than likely the letter "B" was etched into the glass, not carved.

Isn't that a distinction w/o a difference?

"Cut glass" also refers to etching (hydrofluoric acid?). They used to do it with expensive cars before The War (ww II). Still done to identify stolen property - a serial number of the car.

Thanks William!
I can't believe Harry remembered that and that you found the reference!
I don't think I knew of the "B" etched in glass.  It sounds lovely, and in good taste....
Or was that in good taste back then, I wonder?

It was every bit as good taste as having a large "MAPLECROFT" either carved or molded into one's front steps.  (Those steps look like concrete to me, but I could be wrong.)  Lizzie loved that "B".  Remember her little green bookplates?

Yeah!  I've noticed that door before.  I spent two nights in that room, and I'm here to tell you there was no door in that (north) wall.  If there was one in the Bordens' time, anyone using it would have wound up in a crumpled heap in the Borden driveway.  Since that rather large error appears in the picture, I wouldn't want to be too trusting about the objects on the dresser.

(Message last edited Sep-11th-02  6:38 PM.)

That door where it shouldn't be reminds me of the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose, CA.  Stairways that go nowhere, doors that open onto multi-story drops, etc.

Maybe 15+ years ago I read an article on the Winchester house (widow of the rifle maker?). They suggested the widow kept on building because she like spending money telling the workmen what to do.
Or a sign of senility and poor judgment? Answers, please.

Apparently, Sarah Winchester was told by a psychic that in order to appease angry spirits who had been killed by the Winchester rifle, she needed to build a house and keep on building it until the day she died to keep them from coming for her.  And, from the looks of the house(I've visited), she stuck to it!!! 

It must be nice to be rich enough to be that crazy.
Susan, you really toured the house? Was it amazing or just
too much walking?

Oh, Kimberly, it was incredible!  Portions of the house are exactly as Sarah had left them!  Of the mansions 160 rooms, I believe we only got to see 120 of them and that took like 2 hours!  Our tour guide told us exactly how many miles we had just walked on the tour, I forget now just how many?  But, if you ever get the chance to go, do, you won't regret it!

They told you how many MILES you had walked?

Yes, how many miles!  Check the pic I posted of the aerial view of the house.  Everything with the red roofs and light grey are the house!  Its that damn big! 

(Message last edited Sep-14th-02  12:15 PM.)

Radin, Edward
Lizzie Borden the Untold Story
Simon & Shuster, N.Y., 1961:

Pg. 39
"For her thirtieth birthday Borden gave Lizzie a three-month tour of Europe, and she, visited England, Scotland, France and Italy. A group of young women from Fall River made the summer tour together. Since Borden always treated his daughters alike in financial matters, he probably offered Emma, the same opportunity, but she did not go. Emma never traveled outside New England in her life. During the trip Lizzie wrote to both her father and sister. The letters are filled with details of the many museums she visited. Lizzie stopped off in New York on her way home. The European souvenirs she brought back were mostly copies of museum paintings which had caught her fancy, and she gave them to friends as gifts."


Pg. 245
"With my knowledge of scientific crime detection, my investigative approach differed completely. I noted that the confession was signed Lizbeth A. Borden. Lizzie began using the name Lizbeth some time after the trial but she signed most of her letters simply L. A. Borden. I had seen no letters signed Lizbeth as early as 1897.

I compared the confession signature with those on letters written by her in 1897. The latter were firm, clear and flowing; the confession signature was shaky and ragged. If the confession story were true, this might have been due to her emotional stress at the time she wrote it, but since a person's handwriting changes and deteriorates with age it could also mean that the signature was written at a later date. I then made another comparison. Samples of Lizzie's signature are not readily available; most of her letters are in the possession of family friends, a few collectors, and the Fall River Historical Society. There is one notable exception. Her will is on file. It is a public document and anyone can obtain a photostat of it upon payment of a nominal fee."


Pg. 246
"I turned over to Mr. Hilton the copy of the alleged confession given to me by Snow, the photostat of the will containing the Lizbeth A. Borden signature and photographic copies of letters written by Lizzie, including two written in 1897."

--Wouldn't it be nice to have access to these letters without having to spring for a flight to Fall River?


(Message last edited Sep-15th-02  12:12 AM.)

Thanks, Kat!  Its amazing how quickly we get off track here sometimes, well, okay, most of the time!

So, Radin thinks that Emma never left New England her whole life?  I guess he never saw her letters from Scotland?

Yes, I agree, it would be nice if all the Lizzie papers and letters were available on computer, kind of like pay-per-view or something. 

It sounds like he's seen a lot of the girls letters or knows where to find them...at least in the 60's.
There is only the one letter from Scotland that WE know of...and really, as it was signed "E.L.B." that's not absolute proof that it IS from Emma, to Mrs. George Brigham, unless Mrs. G. B. said so.

Oh, I had thought that the Scotland letter was the real deal.  Oh well, back to square one. 

It may be real. It's just, don't go by me...I haven't seen it. 

Who has possesion of that particular letter?  The FRHS? 

Rebello. pg. 299
says "POSTCARD, Fall River Historical Society Archives"

So, we can contact the FRHS and ask for a photocopy of these types of documents or are they only available for viewing whilst there? 

I'm not sure whether the FRHS would provide a photocopy, but I know they have a research service.  For a fairly reasonable hourly fee, they will get someone to research any subject that relates to Fall River history, including (I assume) the Borden case.  So, if we have doubts about items such as the postcard, we could probably get authentication from there.  For example, the handwriting could be compared with known samples of Emma's.  I would like to think the FRHS has already done this.

Yes, I would hope so too, Edisto!  Anything that comes along that is presumed to be a Borden artifact would get some sort of authentication by someone in the know.  Now, I wonder what the fee would be to look this particular piece up?