1. "Use of the guest room"
Posted by Doug on Aug-24th-02 at 9:20 PM

The recent discussion and various photos of the Borden guest room started me wondering why Emma or Lizzie did not use the larger guest room as a bedroom rather than the small room which only opened into the bedroom which was Lizzie's at the time of the murders. We are told when the family first moved to the Second St. house that Lizzie used the small, north facing bedroom and Emma occupied the larger room next to it. Then, at some point before the murders the sisters switched rooms with Emma taking over the smaller room.

The obvious answer that the front bedroom was and remained a guest room is that the Bordens entertained frequent overnight visitors. Emma and Lizzie also used the guest room as a sitting room for their friends and Abby used the room as a sewing room. But was there not a second bedroom on the third floor of the house that might have been used as a guest room? Lizzie and Emma could have used the small bedroom as a combination sitting room and bedroom for their guests. And it would seem that Abby might have had room for her sewing machine and supplies in the area she and Andrew occupied in the rear rooms of the second floor.

Perhaps having a guest room on the same level as the other family bedrooms was "expected" in that day and age. Or, perhaps the sisters were accustomed to the setup they had always known using one large and one small bedroom. It just seems a rather inconvenient arrangement compared to what would probably be usual nowadays.

Well it seems to me that the guest room was the only room in the front of the house on the second floor that was separate from the others. You didn't have to pass through a room to get to it, nor was it used as a connecting room, even though it did have a door into the larger bedroom. This door was blocked on both sides by furniture.

I think if I was a guest and not an intimate of either Lizzie's or Emma's, I would rather stay in this segregated room than one next to the maid on the third floor. It would seem a more polite place to stay than any other room in the house.

I certainly wouldn't want to sleep on the sitting room sofa! I don't know about you guys, but Psycho made me afraid to take a shower alone in the house at night, and this case made me afraid to take a nap in the day time on a couch.

I didn't know that!
Just exactly WHICH family member were you afeared of?

We had talked about this a little.
I've been trying to figure out who would come and stay that would *rate* keeping such a fine room ready gor a guest rather than the use of a daughter.

I believe Mrs. Fish, Abby's sister Priscillia, lived in Hartford, so she would STAY when she visited.  And the girls friend, Augusta Tripp, had come and stayed.  (They differentiate between "making a call" & "making a ViSIT.")

INQUEST
Tripp
Pg. 141

.....A.  Agusta D. Tripp.
Q.  Where do you live?
A.  Westport.
Q.  Were you related in any way to Mr. or Mrs. Borden?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Or connected by marriage?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Did you know them?
A.  Yes sir, I know them.
Q.  Did you ever visit the family?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  When did you first begin to visit there?
A.  When I was a school girl, I think in the year 1875.
Q.  Have you been visiting them since, more or less?
A.  Very little since.
Q.  When was the last time you were there, do you think?
A.  To make a visit?
Q.  Yes.
A.  I went there the 13th of July of last year.
Q.  Not this year?
A.  No Sir. I made a call there this year, but not a visit.
Q.  How long did you stay when you were there the 13th of July?
A.  I went Monday and came back Saturday.
Q.  You were there nearly a week?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Was Miss Lizzie at home?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  And Miss Emma?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  And the old people?
A.  Mrs. Borden I did not see.
Q.  Where was she?
A.  In Swansea I think they said.
Q.  During the whole time?
A.  Yes Sir.

--sorry, I couldn't STOP!

I'm glad you couldn't stop, Kat, because you found a quotation I was looking for recently.  In it, it's implied that Abby was at Swansea without Andrew.  I know both Abby and Andrew sometimes spent substantial time at the Swansea farm, but this is an indication that Abby may have spent some time alone there.  Or maybe she took someone like sister Sarah with her.  Very interesting...I've never thought Abby was exactly the recluse she's been painted, and this may be evidence that she did go places (even if only nearby) on her own.  When I read things like this, I wonder how much we rally understand about life at Chez Borden.  I suspect not as much as we would like to believe.

What's with the parlor?  Nobody seems to use it or even go into it. Sort of a no-mans land between the two halves of the house. Did the senior Bordens entertain guests there?

Didn't Abby do the daily food shopping? Bridget said she didn't have that responsibility and we know the two "girls" wouldn't get off their butts to do anything as demeaning as that.  I think Edisto is right, Abby was out of the house a lot more than we have been led to believe.

If I was Abby I would have spent a LOT of time at the farm in Swansea away from those two step-daughters of hers.

That parlor was Abby's room. She kept the doors closed and cleaned the room herself, as I recall. It is a large room. And I believe had the obligatory piano in it at the time (at least that is what I was told when i stayed at the house).

In Florida, we have split floor plans in a lot of the houses. The master bedroom is on one side of the house with its own bathroom. The other bedrooms are on the opposite side of the house. We also have a Family Room and a Living Room (or Florida Room as they are known here). The Living Room is for company and holidays only and the Family Room is where the TV is and daily life takes place. The Family Room is often connected to the kitchen somehow as well.

I see the parlor as Abby's Living Room--- a more formal place to visit. I don't think she would entertain in the sitting room. It is too deep into the house for that.

If only Andrew had lounged on the couch in the Parlor instead of the sitting room, he might not have been that easy to attack. Plus he would not have been found for days!

I am old enough to remember the time when the parlor was kept unused in case company ever came over. It was NOT a family room. The Bordens, like others, followed this tradition. The sitting room was their family room.

The guest bedroom was also another tradition. People who were poorer would also rent it out as a sleeping room. So they needed a lockable door to keep it separate from the family rooms.

I was brought up in a house with 14 rooms in it, so, you can imagine there were some that weren't used on a regular basis, maybe only on holidays.  The living room which was our equivalent of a parlor which was only used for certain guests, mainly by my mom for her special guests, though I would sit in there and read by myself.  The family room or as we called it the TV room as that is where we all watched television together.  The dining room, used on Thanksgiving and Christmas and sometimes Easter, oh, and birthday parties.  The den which was my dad's private domain, we were forbidden entrance unless he was in there to monitor us.  So, I can totally see the parlor as being Abby's domain, I guess its where the lady of the house could show off her taste and the pocketbook of the family.

Rays post just reminded me, my greatgrandmother used to run a boarding house in her home for the college students in the area.  Her house was similar to the Bordens as it was a two story railroad flat or shotgun shack type of building.  No hallways, one room opened into the next.  There was a small apartment in the rear of the first floor and she would go in to clean, especially if it was a male student.  She felt that cleaning was women's work and she worked from the standpoint that if you had a man try to clean, he would just mess it up.  What a funny lady! 

Edisto,
Yes, it seemed like Abby was away at Swansea while Andrew was *working*--sort of like those Pokeno weekends, where the wives stayed up in the mountains in the summer and the breadwinner came up for Sat. & Sun.
(That's why I couldn't stop, because it was so revealing).

That date Mrs. Tripp mentions...July 13, a Monday...that she was there through Saturday...that coincides with Lizzie's BIRTHDAY, (Being on the Sunday, the 19th).

It's strange too, I remarked to Stef today, that whenever Alice came to call, SHE never saw Abby either.  She says it was AGES (maybe years?) since SHE had seen Abby at the house...
I started to wonder where they *kept* her...  ?

Susan-  Our great-grandmother also ran a boarding house in State College, PA.  She had come from $ and married $ but the stock market crash and the death of her husband later, left her fending for herself.
If any of you ever visit State College, the house is now the Academy of Music, on West College Ave.

[edit here]
Is anybody watching the Little League World Series?
It takes place in Williamsport, PA., where our mom was born.

(Message last edited Aug-25th-02  8:42 PM.)

Here's a newspaper report that indicates Abby was out and about on May 19th, 1891.  She appears to have been a member of the Women's Auxiliary of the Y.M.C.A. and gave a membership report at their first annual meeting.  (She also may have had a nice piece of cake later.)



May 20, 1891
Source: Fall River Daily Globe
Transcription provided by Bruce Laurie, Department of History, University of Massachusetts at Amherst.
"Report from the First Annual of the Women's Auxiliary
The Women's Auxiliary of the Y.M.C.A. held its first annual meeting yesterday afternoon which was largely attended. This branch of the association has contributed largely to its success and has been untiring in its efforts to promote the work which has been undertaken.
Mrs. Norman E. BOrden, the president, tendered her resignation but her executive ability and efficiency were too highly appreciated by her associates and they refused to entertain the idea of her withdrawal. Consequently she consented to serve another term and all were reelected. Interesting reports of various topics then followed the election. They are as follows:
Membership by Mrs. Andrew J. Borden
Social by Mrs. George Stowell
Rooms by Mrs. B.J. Handy       
Devotional by Mrs. R.K. Remington
Visitations of the Sick by Mrs. E.T. Marvel
The exercises were interspersed with vocal music by Ida F. Ferry, Mrs. R.K. Remington, and Mrs. D.A. Chapin.
The general secretary in a few brief word expressed the appreciation of the association of the help rendered by the Auxiliary after which the meeting adjourned for a social hour during which chocolate and cake were served by the social committee.
Later on it is possible that the receptions which have been so successful will be repeated."

Nice find Diana.  That is very interesting that Abby would be involved at that level.  Who says she was a recluse?

There are some familiar names in that list.  Mrs. B. J. Handy is probably the wife of Dr. Benjamin J. Handy.  It was to the Handy house in Marion that Lizzie was supposed to go that weekend.  Amongst the "girls" on that trip were Misses Louise H. Handy,  Mabel C. Remington, Louise Remington and Jenny Stowell.

Looks like Abby knew the mothers and Lizzie the daughters. Sounds pretty normal to me.

(Message last edited Aug-26th-02  5:01 PM.)

There appear to be 3 or 4 Andrew J. Bordens floating around the area.
One was a Bank President, one an attorney, one a janitor and one a suicide.
Since her first name is not included, it May be our Mrs. Borden or ?
As you say, though, by known association with these others, it's probable this is Abby (?)

Rebello (p.24)states that the 1892 Fall River city directory listed [only]two men with the name Andrew J. Borden -- our Andrew, and the City Hall janitor. And because it was a Fall river paper report -- and in light of the social hierarchy of that era -- I thought it more likely that Abby, as the wife of a bank manager, would appear in a 'social' item. 

But, I didn't know about the attorney and the suicide, Kat.  How did you find out about them? Were they really all named Andrew J. Borden -- and did they all live in Fall River at the same time? 

In addition Mrs. Holmes maiden name was Remington. 

We have a thread hereabouts somewhere about 4 Andrews...let me look around.

Meanwhile back at the bank....
Those Remington's seem to have been taking over Lizzie's life!  No wonder there was discord in the Borden family.
Look, we have Mrs. Holmes steadfastly holding up Lizzie through her church work, throught her trials and tribulations and her nieces(?) are all Lizzie's friends?  Meanwhile we have Andrew feuding with Charles Holmes over the price of some land he couldn't sell the church, and so he quits the church in a huff.(*See link below, item #16)  Mrs. Holmes says in one of her statements that she was friends with Lizzie, NOT Abby...sounds like another *tug of love & loyalty* our Lizzie has managed to get herself INTO!

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=11&fid=27&taid=1&topid=670#16

(Message last edited Aug-27th-02  3:06 PM.)

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=1&fid=27&taid=1&topid=528

"Andrew J. Borden Committed Suicide!" Topic started by Edisto, in the Area of Title Page Lizzie Andrew Borden

see pg. 1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2102363556
This is the accounts book that originally made us aware of "Andrew J. Borden, ATTNY."

See second account book, signature #14 from top

I hope this helps...I had stumbled, literally, over that same piece you posted, just recently, myself...the difference being that my copy was IN this computer, whereas I'm sure you searched and worked for it!


(Message last edited Aug-27th-02  3:01 PM.)

Thank you so much, Kat.  That does help. Now we know Mrs. A.J. wasn't the wife of the man who committed suicide, as he was unmarried. 

I wonder about those account book entries. A while back, I was doing some research on various reports of the Borden funerals.  The Fall River Herald lists among the mourners a Miss Mary Ann Borden and identifies her: "of whose estate Mr. Borden was the guardian".  I notice in the account book the entry is for Mary Ann Borden but the signature is that of Andrew J. Borden. I wonder if the note "attny" means it was our Andrew and that he had power of attorney for her not that he was an attorney.

Did the paper get that right? Was Andrew the guardian of Mary Ann Borden? The Fall River Evening News Aug. 6, 1892 also has her listed among the mourners.

That's a good question...isn't the attny. Borden in Hoffman?  (That book is away right now, visiting)

Edisto could explain this stuff, I bet...if she's around after all that Birthday celebration.

It seems to me that an Attorney would more likely be a guardian than our Andrew?

Hoffman's book lists "Andrew Borden" (no "J" middle initial) as treasurer of the Merchant Mills Company in Fall River.  He was a pallbearer at Andrew's funeral and was (according to Hoffman) related to Andrew and named after him.  (So maybe he did have the same middle initial? I believe he was listed in newspaper accounts of the funeral as "Andrew J. Borden. )  There's a story in "YIOFR" about the fact that this Andrew Borden and Lizzie's father had considered buying some joint property on the hill.  This is on page 29.  I cannot help wondering where Hoffman would have gotten a story like that.  It's unlikely to have been part of any public record, because the purchase never took place.  That kind of thing makes me very skeptical when it comes to Hoffman's book; however, it can certainly be helpful at times.  I just wish it had included the sources of the info.  Lizzie's pa and this Andrew Borden are the only ones listed in "YIOFR."

To answer a question a few posts above, Our Miss Lincoln certainly tried to make it look as though Abby was a virtual recluse, as it suited her theory (the "let's throw Abby in the rig and git her down to the bank" one). 

It would be kind of weird to have a non-family guest stay in that little connected bedroom, once Lizzie's and then Emma's, wouldn't it?

  Lets throw Abby in the rig...

I always thought that the dress closet should have been the guest room and Emma's room the dress closet.  They look to be almost close in size, how much room did they need for hardly ever there guests?

This is an excerpt from "Lizzie's Jailhouse Interview", which is probably where Hoffman got it (?) :

Casebook of Family and Crime, Joyce Williams, et.al., eds, pg. 133, from the NEW YORK RECORDER, September 20, 1892:

"The reason the house was without such conveniences was that the girls desired Mr. Borden not to make improvements, because he was talking of moving up 'on the hill.'  Fall River's aristocracy live 'on the hill,' and Mr. Borden had declared to real estate agents that he was looking for a house in that section and that, although he would just as soon live in the old house, the girls desired to move and he wanted to gratify them.

He said that over a year ago to a well-known real estate agent, who had it in mind and was looking for a bargain for him.

More than that, he had offered $15,000 for a handsome house on Main street, that had just been sold, and found that his namesake, a prominent mill Treasurer, was also trying to buy it for the same sum.  He told him if the younger man would get certain land at a bargain he would take half of it, and the two Andrew Bordens would build houses alike and live side by side.  This was a few months ago.  Naturally anyone who contemplated buying a new house and removing to it would not fix up his old house, which was in a district of tenements, as he would if he intended to remain in it.

When Mr. Borden wanted to put in modern improvements, the wife and daughters said they preferred to stand it rather than have the house torn up for piping.

This does not indicate that Lizzie Borden's father was niggardly in his dealings with his family, thereby arousing the girl's indignation and supplying her with a motive for a brutal murder...."

Thanks for posting that, Kat.  So that's probably where Hoffman got some of his info about the two Andrew Bordens planning a joint real-estate deal.  I had a vague memory of having read something more about that, but I had no idea where nor when. That doesn't seem to be a story that was widely circulated.  Wonder where that particular paper got it?  (We'll probably never know.)

Are there any signatures of Andrew out there that we could compare this signature to? That may help solve the question. Diana, I think you have a fantastic find if it does turn out the "attny" is really Andrew, Lizzie's father.

William, do you have any Andy signatures in your collection? Does anyone?

Perhaps this is a case for Michael Martins and the Fall River Historical Society.

I was wondering if the "well-Known real estate agent" was Charles Cook?
That would be very interesting, because as far as we know he didn't hardly speak about the Borden's or their financial affairs, and he was prudent NOT to, as he seems to have come out ahead financially when all is said & done.  If the info was leaked from Charles Cook's statement (he said he would tell to the Marshal ONLY), maybe this is what he told...

There must have been hundreds of documents out there bearing Andrew's signature.  He was involved in so many legal transactions of his own as well as being an officer of a few banks.  I looked on the Ferry Street land transaction you posted the other day, Stef, but it almost looks as though the names have been written in by whoever wrote the actual document -- and the signatures may be just off to the side of that page -- or is that just the way it comes up on my screen?



(Message last edited Aug-29th-02  4:00 PM.)

This story has never been substantiated, has it?  It certainly does serve to remove a possible motive, but it just sounds too good to be true (whether Lizzie ever said it or not), especially since Andrew was beyond questioning...

"Don't fix up a house when you're planning to move?"
Does that make me like Andy B?

Or, don't put money into a car when you're planning to get a newer one? Any other similar advice?

It is NOT "too good to be true" since this practical advice is often followed in today's world. It works for me.

The story is so convoluted and involved as a land deal, that it almost seems like it could be true.

I've always been inclined to disbelieve it...and any news story that is credited to "a friend of the family" or "one who knows"...
(Sounds suspiciously like any newsman's nom de plume.)

Diana, in this computer I have found 2 pages of City Directory but no date.
Oh well, it does have names.  Abraham is contemporary to the #28 doc., or they each could be the same date only differing sectors of the city?

#84:
Borden, Andrew--treas. Merchants Mfg. Co., home=102 N. Main

Borden, Andrew J.--janitor, City Hall, home=13 Hanover

Borden, Andrew J.--President Union Sav. Bk., home=92 Second

Borden, Andrew R--laborer, home=27 Grinnell
--------------------
#28
Borden, Andrew--boards 13 Oak

Borden, Andrew J.) Almy (William&Co.)

Borden, Andrew J.--2d, teacher, home=88 Bay


(Message last edited Aug-29th-02  4:27 PM.)

Glad you are feeling better, Bob!

What puzzles me about the little connected bedroom is that both Emma and Lizzie, as adults, continued to use it as their own bedroom when a full-sized bedroom (the guest room) sat just a few feet away. Granted, the guest room was used as guest quarters, a sitting room, and a sewing room but it seems these uses would be secondary if a daughter chose to claim the guest room as her own, especially if she otherwise felt "cramped" in the house. Lizzie and Emma could then use the little connected bedroom as what today we might call a den with overnight accomodations for their friends. Other guests (for example, Abby's sister or Uncle John) could use the second bedroom on the third floor.

I think the guest room is like guest towels & china,
save the best for company & let the family make do with
less than perfect. Didn't Uncle John live with them
for a year or so? And wasn't he stuck up in the attic next to
Bridget? He became part of the "family" & wasn't an official
"guest" anymore, so he had to make do with less than perfect.

(Message last edited Aug-31st-02  3:51 PM.)

Our company got the fold-out couch!
And a cat bottom in their face!

That is if they were LUCKY  !

  That is too funny, Kat!  Watch out for cat bottoms!!!  I used to have a cat that would do just that, sit on your chest and swish her tail in your face, she was a long hair.  This meant its time for you to get up, guest or household member, and feed me!!! 

The family had lived in that house on Second Street for, according to Lizzie at the Inquest:
"I think, I am not sure, but I think about 20 years last May."
That's a long time.  That's what makes me disbelieve the newspaper story about Andrew not putting in modern conveniences because they were gonna move.  Yeah, right.  They could say anything - the guy was dead and couldn't deny it.

I had never read of Lizzie and Emma occupying any other rooms than the two they still did in 1892 (Emma wanting to swap Lizzie the bigger room for Lizzie's smaller room later on).  I would think the 'girls' would want to be close to each other like that anyway - to giggle and tell secrets into the night.  Or to laugh maniacally and plan murders into the night.

If I had a guest room and lived in that house, I would use the one they did.  Who knows who the guests would be at times?  You wouldn't want someone non-family having to traipse thru your bedroom to get to the hallway.  I think it made sense then and it makes sense now.  But I see Doug's point.  I myself wouldn't do it that way, tho.

Yes, Uncle John did come for a year or more and was relegated to the attic bedroom.  Sounds like that's where those with longer-termed sentences would go.  That way the guest room would still be avaialable for overnighters or the girls' friends. 

I can't tell by that questioning you quoted, Kat, if Andrew did or did not go to Swansea with Abby.  Very interesting if she went by herself.  Not only Lincoln, but Spiering also painted Abby as a recluse in the extreme.  I agree with Harry and those who think she was not.  Lizzie even says Abby did the marketing daily.  Abby ran over to Dr. Bowen's against Andrew's wishes - that's guts, especially in 1892.  I'm inclined to believe that is "our" Abby on the YMCA board.  Can we find out more on that?

I don't know where I've been, but I hadn't heard of Andrew J. Borden, attorney.  Diana's story sounds very plausible.  I had not heard of the mill treasurer.  Could this in any way be "our" Andrew - he was involved in a lot of business stuff and banking.  But it did give a different address for the mill Borden, didn't it? 

I had read of the "namesake" of Andrew's and the two of them buying property together, or planning to.  That didn't mean, tho, that Andrew was gonna move there.  It could have - if true - just been another property investment. 

If they were gonna move, wouldn't Lizzie have been telling her friends about it before August 4?  Wouldn't she be excited and be planning color schemes out and stuff?  Andrew was a Quaker - he was a simple man.  Those old values never changed in him.  I have been thinking of late that his "Scroogeness" was more his simple roots.  Like Abby, I think he's been unfairly portrayed.  There are several instances where he showed his generosity.  But I don't think a move was being planned in his lifetime - at least, not by him.

(Message last edited Aug-30th-02  10:18 PM.)

I agree with you, Augusta!  I don't think Andrew would have put a penny towards moving?  Why?  He had everything he wanted at the Second Street house.  As for "the girls", thats another story!

Putting in modern conveniences?  Unh-unh.  The Borden house wasn't even connected to the gas main for gas lighting in a time period where people were already starting to get electric lights in their homes.  They must have looked like they were living in the stone-age to their peers.

And I agree with Abby not being a recluse.  Being the wife of an important man like Andrew, I'm sure that she would have to show up at social functions and things at Andrew's side.  It sounds like she had more of a life than we have been led to believe.  I can't imagine wanting to stay around the house all day when there was Bridget to do the housework and cooking, I would want to get out.

I still think if Emma took over the guest room "the girls" would still be close and be able to talk, there was that connecting door between the two rooms!  I still think that dress closet would have made a perfectly charming little guest room. 

What it makes today, of course, is a perfectly charming little bathroom (with indoor plumbing, yet).

Really?  Thanks, Edisto!  Is it a very tiny room?  It looks in the floor plans to be about the size, slightly smaller, as Emma's room.