Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden

1. "William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by rays on Oct-2nd-02 at 12:21 PM

This 1960 book may be responsible for re-opening the case. Edward Radin's 1961 book was based on his vist and investigation into the Fall River people's memories and recollection. He found one man who did know Lizzie circa 1892.

Can anyone try their local university or college library? Maybe too old to be kept. My county library system just goes back 30 yrs to R Sullivan's book.


2. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by joe on Oct-2nd-02 at 1:32 PM
In response to Message #1.

Rays, is this the book ---"Kunstler, William Moses. "Murder in Hatred: The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Versus Lizzie Borden." First Degree. NY: Oceana Publications, 1960. 22-35.
Written by a famous defense attorney, Kunstler recounts the details of the case without specifically naming Lizzie as the guilty party."

Have you read it?


3. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by rays on Oct-2nd-02 at 3:28 PM
In response to Message #2.

I read a book about the case in 1965. The author told how Andy foreclosed on the 92 Second St house, then called in the carpenters whose mortgages he held and forced them to work for free or have their mortgages called. Etc.

This author said since Bridget was outside when Abby was killed, Lizzie must have done it; since Lizzie was outside when Andy was killed, then Bridget must have done it. A logical conclusion based on the known facts. This solution ignores other facts (no blood on dresses, no bloody hatchet, and Lizzie's testimony: "neither Bridget or anyone who worked for Father did it").

Published in 1960, it must have reopened this closed case. No copies are available to me. Can anyone else find a copy? This hardback had a black or navy cover.


4. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by Susan on Oct-2nd-02 at 10:26 PM
In response to Message #3.

It sounds interesting!  I will check with my local library system and see if they carry it at all. 


5. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Oct-3rd-02 at 12:04 PM
In response to Message #4.

Is it a full book on the case, or a chapter?


6. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by rays on Oct-3rd-02 at 3:52 PM
In response to Message #4.

I looked at a more recent book of Kunstler's. It had NO mention of the Lizzie Borden book in it! Could it have been censored and suppressed? Or do you think these things don't happen anymore?
A LARGE library like the NY Public Library (5th and 42nd street?) might have this book for reference. What about any large city near to you? It would be more objective if one of the others read and reported on this book. Assuming you could find it.

Years ago I read that every (?) library had a shelf of forbidden books that were removed from general circulation. Because of local politics, etc. What is your experience?

In 1975 I saw this paperback on the Hall-Mills case, another unsolved murder mystery. He had some comments on the political influence of this case. Compared to the Borden Murders, it did not come to trial until 4 years later!!! And there was missing evidence. Don't remember much more.


7. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by Susan on Oct-3rd-02 at 8:13 PM
In response to Message #6.

Well, i can check with the downtown San Diego branch of the library and see if they carry it there or could get it on loan from LA maybe? 


8. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by Kat on Oct-3rd-02 at 8:21 PM
In response to Message #5.

It is listed in the Bibliographies as an essay or brief mention, and is 14 pages long.

It has the date that Ray has been looking for... 1960...he thinks it may be that elusive item where he first read about Andrew's horrible business practices.

Ray has said before that he thought it was in a compilation or anthology.

I don't know why Kunstler would involve himself in that kind of gossip in a short work of 14 pages, but people have been looking for this grail of rays for a couple of years now...the sourse of the nasty Andy stories.(?)


9. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by Susan on Oct-4th-02 at 3:02 AM
In response to Message #8.

I'm curious if Kunstler lists his sources for this info on Andrew?  I would still like to read it as I find that if I have more sources to check from, I can make a better educated guess. 

(Message last edited Oct-4th-02  3:03 AM.)


10. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by rays on Oct-4th-02 at 12:28 PM
In response to Message #8.

I NEVER said it was an anthology or collection of chapters. It was devoted to the Borden Murders, and the author came up with his solution: when Bridget was outside at 9:30AM, Lizzie did Abby; when Lizzie was outside at 11AM, Bridget did Andy. Don't remember much more than that.

[Could his explanation for their actions have been the source for Ed McBain's novel?]

Could the dirty business of Andy mean "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree"?

(Message last edited Oct-4th-02  12:30 PM.)


11. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by Kat on Oct-4th-02 at 10:57 PM
In response to Message #10.

I had thought that once all the full-length book titles had been offered you, with a publish date in the vicinity of your memory as 1960's, that you then admitted that *maybe* it was in an essay or collection.
If not, then excuse me. please.


12. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by rays on Oct-5th-02 at 1:30 PM
In response to Message #11.

I think it would be very educational if two or more were to find and read this book. It is NOT listed in one of Kunstler's books that I found in my library. So I wonder why?


13. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by Kat on Oct-5th-02 at 11:04 PM
In response to Message #12.

I believe it is an essay, that is 14 pages long, collected in a book, inclusive of other works, and named First Degree.

This is a paste of the citation as it appears at LABVM/ L.:

"Kunstler, William Moses. 'Murder in Hatred: The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Versus Lizzie Borden.' First Degree. NY: Oceana Publications, 1960. 22-35.
Written by a famous defense attorney, Kunstler recounts the details of the case without specifically naming Lizzie as the guilty party."


14. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by Kat on Nov-27th-02 at 7:42 AM
In response to Message #13.

I went to the Museum /Library to see if this essay had been reviewed by Lisa Zawadzki, in the Quarterly.
I found the review section under RESOURCES and then under Bibliographies; II. Reviews and "The Bibliographic Borden".
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BibliographyLBQAuth.htm

It led me to the Issue, April, 1999, pg.4:
"Kunstler, William M.
Murder in Hatred:
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Versus Lizzie Borden

in   First Degree.  New York:
Oceana Publications, 1960: 22-35.

This well-written essay never actually came out and named a guilty party.  But the recounting of the legal and background issues did not make Lizzie look very good.  I seemed to sense that the author felt Lizzie B. was guilty, but would rather let his retelling of the evidence and events speak for itself.  However, this writer was fair.  Several examples that favored Miss Lizzie were given.  For this Kunstler should be commended.  So many authors, especially those writing summaries, choose to include only the information which fits into their theories.
That said, this was a good overview essay in which the essential facts were covered.  Kunstler, not surprisingly, spent more time on the legal aspects of the case.  However, there was a good amount of background on the people involved."


15. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by rays on Nov-27th-02 at 4:13 PM
In response to Message #11.

It was in the summer (Jul-Aug?) of 1965 while I was on vacation from my job. I visited the Library, and saw a display on "true crime", and picked out this full-length book. Here's what I remember:

Andy got the 92 Second St house by foreclosing on the mortgage, then called in all the carpenters whose mortgage he held and ordered them to work on the modifications or he would foreclose on their mortgages!

Andy went with his cracked eggs when collecting rents, forcing his tenants to buy at a higher price. (My way or the highway?)

The author solved the crime by blaming both Bridget and Lizzie. Lizzie did Abby at 9:30am when Bridget was working outside (seen by witnesses), and Bridget did Andy when Lizzie was outside (seen by a witness). No emotional attachments that way?

Impeccable logic, if you don't know the other facts in the case. I don't remember much more than this. Can anyone find our more about this book? It seemed fairly new and clean then.


16. "Re: William Kunstler's book on Trial of Lizzie Borden"
Posted by Kat on Nov-28th-02 at 1:11 AM
In response to Message #15.

I know, I know.
We should add a disclaimer to that synopsis!
We could call it "The Worst Legends of Lizzie Borden".
I then do doubt it is this Kunstler book.
Try, try again...



 

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