1. ""Legend" Reborn"
Posted by edisto on May-29th-02 at 9:43 PM

My husband went out to dinner with a friend (male) this evening, so I was all alone with the cats and decided to have a personal film fest.  I watched "The Legend of Lizzie Borden" for the first time in months.  Actually, the copy I have is quite a good one; I'm very satisfied with it, even though I'm sure it's a bootleg like all the others.  Anyway, I got a pad and paper and jotted down all the errors I found.  Even though I take Speedwriting, I couldn't keep up with them.  Lizzie's wardrobe is so incredibly fancy.  She's lounging around the house on a warm August morning wearing something that looks like a lined, long-sleeved blue silk dress, trimmed with black sequins and jet beads.  I'm surprised she wasn't wearing a hat and gloves.  She dropped the hatchet into the kitchen range, as if both head and handle would have burned into ashes.  Here she was carrying huge basins of water from the basement to the second floor and back. She would have fallen and done herself in before she ever got around to axing Father.  When Bridget went to the Bowen's, nobody (not even Mrs. Bowen) was home.  Mrs. Churchill came over to the Borden house without being asked by Lizzie.  When she entered the house, she went directly into the sitting room and saw Andrew's remains.  Of course, Uncle John was a total no-show.  Nevertheless, it is entertaining just to look for the many, many errors.  It would have been easy to stick to the facts in many cases, but no...  Unfortunately, I do think this movie is the source for many misapprehensions about the case, such as the "factoid" that the pigeons were Lizzie's pets.

I just re-viewed this video the weekend before last.
The time BEFORE that, I fell asleep!

Anyway, they did show Andrew as heartlessly beheading those pigeons and Lizzie cries for the only time in the movie.

Another factoid shows Lizzie stealing the hatchet from the local general-type store, where, not knowing what she may have taken, the proprieter tells a citizen that he'll add it to Andrew's bill: *he always pays*.

But, they never did show her trying to buy that Prussic acid, yet, allowed it to be in the trial portion of the show.

The conversation between Lizzie and Robinson about the dress burning, where she smiles and says, Shes a good Christian woman, it is the truth.  When did that ever happen? 

(Message last edited May-31st-02  3:28 AM.)

I don't know that Lizzie really did say Alice Russell was a "good, Christian woman".  After the trial, they never spoke again.  I would have put Reverend Buck on her arm walking her into the courtroom.  I can understand they had to condense some things because of the time factor.  Being a made-for-tv movie back then, they were constricted more than the usual theatre movies.  Lizzie burned the axe in the stove?  I remember her throwing it down the water closet ... hm ...  Yes, that movie sure did do a lot to spread some wrong things about her and the case in general.  I really hope some day they'll do a re-make.  They need to show how the cops & doctors reacted and how many people messed with the bodies and any evidence.  Abby's character was sadly one-dimensional, which I think was unfair, especially with what's been coming out lately in the LBQ.  And Andrew had a good side to him, too.  There are bits and pieces out there concerning it.  A re-make should include Lizzie's talk with Alice Russell the night before.  And show the illness in the household prior to the killings.  And above all, Uncle John has to be in it.  Abby should visit her step-sister.  I enjoy the "Legend..." movie.  It's the only one we have!  And I enjoyed the main characters' performances.  I think it was pretty well done, but a better, more historically accurate one really needs to be done.  It'd make a mint!  (I'd also add some scene or scenes on later life.  In fact, maybe I'd start out with Lizzie as an old woman looking back.)

Oooooo, good idea, Augusta!  Like the old woman in Titanic, going back and reminiscing about the past!  I would also love to see a heart-rending scene where Lizzie's real mother tells Emma to care for baby Lizzie and dies.  Oh, could you imagine?  A real movie on the big screen?  Who would you have play Lizzie?  And the rest of the gang?

So, what has been coming out in the LBQ about Abby and Andrew? 

In the January LBQ (of this year) William Pavao did a good-sized article on Abby.  That was followed by a shorter one in the April issue by Sherry Chapman, a friend of mine.  There wasn't much new in the Pavao article, but it was good to see that at last Abby was getting a fair shake and not looked at as just a one-dimensional wicked step-mother.  The April article dealt with a letter Alice Russell had written to the prosecution team.  It came from The Knowlton Papers.  They asked her to write them about Lizzie's conversation with her on the night of August 3 (the "premonition chat").  Alice wrote of Lizzie's version of the day before (Wed., August 3) when Abby ran over to Dr. Bowen's.  When Dr. Bowen came over to see how Andrew was, Lizzie was "mortified" how Andrew treated him.  And afterwards Abby lit into Andrew about it.  It showed that Abby stood up to Andrew and, at least on that day, Andrew didn't fight back.  It also showed how much Abby thought of the Bowens.  It's pitiful, the crumbs we have to gather to get any information about Abby or Andrew's characters.  There's so little out there.

Some of us have played Casting Director with a future Lizzie movie.  Kathy Bates won as Abby Borden.  The old farmer guy from "Babe" sounded like the best Andrew.  Melanie Griffith has the jaws for Lizzie but she's too glamorous.  Whoever it would be would have to have those famous jaws. 

Thanks for the info, Augusta!  I have heard of the day before poisoning story and how Abby went to Dr. Bowen.  What I didn't know was after Andrew pitched his fit and said my money shan't pay for it, that our Abby lit into him!  I love it!  That is such a juicy little morsel of information!  Abby wasn't some Victorian hausfrau, subserviant to her husband's whims at all times, she HAD a spine!  She actually put Andrew in check, I love it!  But, that article still sounds like it paints Andrew as the stubborn, penny-pinching miser that hes always been painted as.

I like Kathy Bates for Abby!  I know the actor who you speak of from BABE, hmmmm, will have to think on that one.  What about Kate Winslet for our Lizzie?  Shes got the figure for her as well as the full face.  I believe with the right make-up she could be made a little less glamorous and a little more plain.  By far, I think that Elizabeth Montgomary had the Lizzie look.  Who did you pick for Emma?  Or Uncle John? 

There's an alternative view as to that doctor visit on Wednesday, but it'd flimsily based on Dr. Bowen's recollections (and the questions he was asked/not asked), and a newspaper account.
Then we decide, do we believe Lizzie or Who?
It seems Lizzie is probably correct, as Bowen lives on, able to disagree with her in testimony, but he doesn't.  He just comes off as not very concerned about the whole affair of the *visit*, whereas Lizzie's rendition is more melodramatic.  Told to Alice Wednesday night, Aug. 3, 1892, & recalled in a letter, by Alice,  dated June 2, 1893, 3 days before trial, Knowlton Papers, pg. 227-9.
In order to confuse, Herein, the rest of the case is presented:

Inquest, Bowen, pg. 116  (Inquest Aug. 9-11, 1892)
"I went over after breakfast.  I think Bridget let me in.  I am very sure it was the front door.  I says 'Mr. Borden, what is the matter?'  He looked at me and wanted to know if anybody had sent for me.  I told him no, Mrs. Borden was over, I thought I would just come over and see.  He seemed well enough then.  He said he felt a little heavy, and did not feel just right, but said he did not think he needed any medicine.  I did not urge him at all, of course, and I went home.  I did not think much about it...."

Preliminary, Bowen, pg.408  (Aug. 25-Sept. 1, 1892)
Q: Who did you see?
A: I saw Mr. Borden
Q: You talked with him?
A: Yes Sir
Q: How did he appear to be?
A: He was lying down then.  As I went in, of course he sat up on the sofa

Not asked at Trial

Casebook, Williams, pg.40-1
Fall River Daily Herald, Aug. 6, 1892
"...Relative to the poisoning Dr. Bowen said...'A little later in the forenoon I went over to see Mr. Borden.  I found him reclining on the sofa in the sitting room.  I asked him how he was and if he thought anything had poisoned him.  He laughed and said he guessed there was not very much the matter with him.  We sat talking some little time and then I went out.  That was the last time I talked with him.' ..."

--This seems to be *an interview*, as Bowen is quoted also as praising Lizzie's reputation, believes her "absolutely innocent", and that she "possesses our confidence", but that "as a citizen" he would like the "mystery fully cleared up and the guilty party punished."--Standard newspaper fluff...
--??

Yes, Susan, the article by Sherry Chapman does still depict Andrew as a Scrooge-type character.  But that really was one side of his personality.  And apparently in this instance he was being himself.  That's not to say there wasn't a good side to him, which I think existed.  Hopefully things will come out about that good side. 

I loved your post, Kat.  You had me riveted.  Sometimes when an incident occurs it's perceived differently.  How many times I've thought I've offended someone, only to learn later that they didn't even think anything about it.  Maybe that's what happened in this case.

Did Bridget testify about this incident?  Surely we haven't been handing this story down just because of Alice Russell's letter to the prosecution. 

Given the racism endemic to America, could this be another facet to this case? Any has those eyes that suggest Native American blood.
Talking about Lizzie's prominent jaws is another indicator?

(I have a relative who has this feature. Also straight black hair.)

Augusta:
It seemed to me that it could be an instance of Lizzie exaggerating to Alice something that happened.  She may have had some obscure reason (like the rest of her "premonition" statement)--mabe she thought HER recounting of the incident made the folks look bad, which might have been her intent:  Abby as a harridan, and Andrew as a crochety curmudgeon?
This is not to say it didn't happen, just a certain *spin* put upon it?  Heck, maybe Lizzie really thought what she saw and heard WAS the truth, filtered through her own eyes.  (As for Bowen...well, 'nuff said...)
BUT, Bowen does say when he arrived, Lizzie (or who he firmly believed to be Lizzie) was just disappearing up the front stairs.
So for her to report ANYTHING of that encounter, she HAD to be EAVESDROPPING (on the landing?)

I've read and re-read the whole thing--the Knowlton letter, the Bowen stuff...and I'm becoming convinced you are right, Augusta, that it happened BOTH ways.
Lizzie seems to actually be on ABBY'S side against the way she perceived Andrew to be acting toward Dr. Bowen.
Odd, to think she may, in spirit, AGREE with the *hated stepmother* and then kill her the next day?

But we do prove that Lizzie was either an innocent bystander to the confrontation between Abby and Andrew because voices could be easily heard and comprehended from UPstairs, or Lizzie was actually listening in, at least until Dr. Bowen left., whereupon she came back down in time to witness the confrontation between an irate Abby and Andrew.

Inquest, pg.116, Bowen:
"   When I went in, I saw Lizzie run up stairs.  Mrs. Borden I did not see, because I had seen her before....She [Lizzie] was just going upstairs as I went in the front door;  I thought it was her.  I am not quite sure....yes Sir, somebody I supposed was Lizzie, I did not see her face...[and did not talk to her]"

--Abby may have been listening in also, if Bowen says he did not see her.  I suppose it's possible he meant *see her* as in a Doctor's sense of *seeing a patient*...But it makes an odd picture in the imagination to think of Abby listening through the door from the dining room, and Lizzie listening from the hall or stairs, to hear Andrew & Bowen's conversation....

(Message last edited Jun-4th-02  3:11 PM.)

Something tells me Lizzie spent a lot of time on that upstairs landing with an ear cocked for the downstairs discussions.

I think you must be right.

I never pictured ABBY listening in before, though, until now.
What do you think of ThAT image?

I think Bridget testified about this incident and heard it too.  I think that's why it keeps getting re-told.  Unless Alice testified to it, but I can't recall her talking about that in court - just the premonition stuff.  I'll be doing some reading tonight.

I think Lizzie listened in on any little bit she could having to do with the old folks.  Whether she was just up the staircase or in her room, remember there weren't tv's and a lot of background noise we have in our homes nowadays. 

Sherry Chapman's article points out just what you said, too, Kat.  That for once Lizzie is saying something good about Abby, which is one reason it might be credible. 

Lizzie did seem to spin yarns, tho.  And it could be that she was trying to make the folks look bad.  But, here we go again, why would she make Abby out as the heroine?  I'd think she'd say, "And then Mrs. Borden kicked Dr. Bowen in the derriere saying 'That goes double for me!'" 

(Message last edited Jun-4th-02  4:44 PM.)

Perhaps Lizzie told the truth in this instance because Bridget had witnessed the incident as well as (of course) Dr. Bowen.  Lincoln did point something out in her book that I have always found interesting, that Lizzie not so much out-and-out lies, she manipulates the truth, embellishes it a little.  There does seem to be some truth in that statement about her.

Lizzie also seems to state alot of small, nonsensical details to add to the mix?  Why?  Like picking up a chip of wood from the barn floor on the way back to the house.  The piece of tape sewn on the garment that was just washed.  Why?

Didn't they have doors to every room in those days, and for decades afterward? Mostly kept closed (unless you had your ear against the door). I think it is possible that Lizzie knew that an argument was coming, and avoided it because she didn't want to be embarrassed. Or she was told to go upstairs by Andy.

That is entirely possible, Rays.  Andrew may have known that Dr. Bowen was on his way over and started ranting about it.  I know I wouldn't want to be part of a situation where MY father started yelling at someone who was a family friend as well as doctor! 

Ray, there is a door on each room in the Borden house to this day.  It's something when you read about it, but it's even more poignant when you see it.  It's weird. 

Lizzie testified at her inquest that she would sometimes keep her door open in warm weather and close it in cooler weather.  But the afternoon Morse came, their voices irritated her and she claims she closed it.  I think she said she was not feeling well and was trying to take a nap. 

I could have sworn Lizzie threw the hatchet into the kitchen range, but I watched that part of the film again today, and it is indeed the "indoor outhouse" into which she threw it.  I guess I looked away briefly when I first watched the movie the other night, and that two-holer did look a lot like an old fashioned stove top.  Of course, we know the Bordens didn't have a two-holer in the cellar, so that sequence is even sillier than I originally thought.  She threw the hatchet into the toilet and flushed it down?  I see major plumbing problems...

Edisto,
Do you recall, in the movie, if Lizzie dropped the hatchet down the "hole" after the FIRST murder?

I just watched that scene in Legend and it is after Andrew's murder that she does the hatchet dropping.  She also uses the pump in the kitchen(all wrong!) to wash the blood off of her, like Bridget wouldn't hear that pump going and later wonder what pinkish tinged water is doing all over her clean kitchen floor!  And, from what I recall, I could be wrong on this, doesn't a pump like that have to be "primed"?  In other words, before you can use it, you must pour some water down into the top of it which aids(somehow) in the water being drawn up into the top? 

Even watching very carefully the second time, I couldn't tell WHERE Lizzie was putting the hatchet after she used it on Abby.  She seemed to be stashing it somewhere in the cellar, but the cellar looked so murky that I couldn't tell exactly where.  She definitely did drop it down the "hole" after the second murder.  I agree that she couldn't possibly have cleaned herself up at the pump as the movie shows.  I've used old pumps like that, and it wasn't necessary to pour water down them to prime them, but it was necessary to pump vigorously to get them started in the first place, and they did make plenty of noise.  It's very likely Bridget would have heard it.  Did the Bordens have a pump like that in the kitchen and cellar, or did they have faucets?  I had assumed they were faucets...

Edisto:

You're absolutely correct.  Faucets, not pumps.  Pumps would only be used for well water.  City water was under pressure.

Yes, I agree with William.  Faucets in the house and the barn.  I wonder though, does the original sink room still exist at the LAB B&B?  If it does, does it still have the original sink and water taps?