1. "When Did Lizzie EAT?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-22nd-02 at 9:09 PM

I'm looking at Lizzie's Inquest, and eating a peanut butter & jelly sandwich.

I'm thinking, when did this girl EAT?

Do you suppose she kept a stash of food in her room?

Pg. 55+  Lizzie says:
-She rarely eats breakfast
-If it was a *statement* she and her sister made to not eat with the elder Bordens, then what would Lizzie do for meals whilst Emma was away for 2 weeks? 
-She didn't eat supper Wednesday at all because she had "not been feeling well."
-She doesn't remember if she went down to dinner Wednesday
-She does not remember having had "tea" Wednesday at home before she went to Alice's. .(81)
--She did not get any breakfast Thursday, according to HER.  (She may have had "1/2 a banana"--tho Bridget says Lizzie had coffee and at least a cookie)
-She had no supper Thursday because of the murders.
-She probably had no dinner Thursday, either, as the house was in turmoil
-Mrs. Dr. Bowen sent over some toast for her Thursday night
-This girl cannot live on PEARS alone!
???????????

I see her as a secret eater. Stashing candy bars she has shop lifted at the drug store. Did they have candy bars back then? Oh, no, more things to look up!

She probably lived on sweets and ice cream. And killed her father and stepmother in a chocolate withdrawal.

Hersheys candy bars weren't made until like 1903, so, there may have been other brands.  Do you think that maybe Lizzie raided the refrigerator at night while everyone else was asleep?  I don't think they had as much snack food then as we do now that would keep just sitting in her room, I don't know if they had all those preservatives in their food? 

I think there might have been Baby Ruth candy bars, or is my timing off?

I wondered what kind of food she could stash.
Crackers (like she used in her meat loaf recipe?)

I did just find her eating on pg. 87.
She says she ate Tuesday, ..."what little we ate..."

I just started reading the Inquest and got as far as Uncle John and Emma.  Emma mentions that Mrs. Borden did the shopping and Emma didn't really know were she went to shop or when.

Emma also states that she did some chores and Lizzie too but only if they felt like it and that Abby did most along with Bridget.  It sounds to me that Emma and Lizzie were pampered little rich girls.  What did they do with their time.  I know Lizzie was busy with the church etc., but mostly it sounds like visiting, lounging around, shopping.  They didn't have any household responsibilities, planning meals, washing clothes or whatever.

Emma didn't even know the difference between an ax or a hatchet.  Did they live in a bubble?

So to get back to the question of what Lizzie ate, it would seem to me that if Mama was dead and couldn't shop or plan they could have starved to death, except for those juicy pears hanging in the back yard.  And that was only seasonal.

Do you suppose that Lizzie ate out alot?  If a loaf of bread cost a nickel at that time, I would imagine for a dollar you could get a feast!

Then I also thought, was Lizzie on a diet?  During the 1890s women exercised and dieted and played certain sports.  Though how they played tennis in those long skirts is beyond me, even if they didn't trip on them, I would think they would bunch up between your legs moving around quickly.  I personally don't think at the time of the murders that Lizzie was fat, even by today's model thin standards.  But, almost every book describes her as thick, plump, stout, perhaps she felt she was and was dieting? 

The style of clothing plus all the layers of undergarments would certainly make you look chubby even if you weren't.  I know from talking with my grandmother that anyone who was thin and frail were sent up north to a relative's farm to fat them up because they thought if you were thin or had a bad appetite you weren't healthy.  My gram was born in 1903.  Her older sister who was 10 years older was a big woman--height and weight and my gram was short and round just the way a good gramma should be.

I think Lizzie was probably finicky and only ate occassionally.  I myself am thinking of supper and lunch at breakfast!!!  I never understood people who didn't like food, you know, they only ate because they had to, not because they enjoyed it.  My grandmother always fed us and fed us alot, like "maybe you should lose a little weight but have a piece of pie" on top of a million course lunch.  She was a great believer in having a snack between breakfast and lunch-a snack between lunch and supper plus alittle something before bed just to hold you over.  God, I loved that woman.

Perhaps, Lizzie didn't eat much before the murders because of the heat.  Lots of people lose their appetites when it's hot.

This is from http://www.housemouse.net:

1890s New Foods

Minute Tapioca Condensed soup 
Fig Newtons Canned pineapple 
Knox's Gelatin  Shredded Wheat 
Canada Dry Ginger Ale 
Grape Nuts  Cream of Wheat 
Postum Jell-O
Tootsie Rolls
Swans Down Cake Flour
Uneeda Biscuits Entenmann bakery products
Pepsi-Cola Wesson Oil Cracker Jack
Bottled Coca-Cola Crepes Suzettes Oysters Rockefeller
Published brownie recipe
US brunch fashionable English lunch
S&H Food Stamps Public school hot lunches


1880s New Foods.

Malted milk
Powdered pea and beet soups
Evaporated milk

Aunt Jemima Pancake Flour
Coca-Cola
Moxie

Dr. Pepper
Thomas's English muffins
Oscar Mayer wieners

Salada Tea
Tetley Tea
Log Cabin Syrup

Morton's salt
Canned meat and fruit in stores: 1880
Flaked Cereal 

It looks like there was a pretty good selection for
those who didn't want mutton soup, everything from
Tootsie Rolls & fig newtons to Oscar Mayer hotdogs.

(Message last edited Aug-23rd-02  2:37 PM.)

Thanks so much for THE LIST OF FOODS!!!
I spent the rest of my night (I'm up anyway) looking for an old LINK we had had to the 1890's food.  I even wrote Harry to ask if he remembered where it's located.  He provided me a different Link, to a sort of "Food Timeline" (Thanks!)  [Hot dogs were invented in 1484!].
Now, if Lizzie only liked her cereal with warm milk, she could definetly have survived a "hunger-strike" in her bedroom, with all that cool hidden food!  (I don't know why I wrote "hunger-strike".  No one has mentioned THAT before!)  Anyway, she could certainly APPEAR to be not eating, meanwhile gorging in secret!

I pictured, too, her sullen face at the table, and playing with her food, and daddy saying, "go to your room!"
So that maybe she was ordered away from the table, rather than choosing not to eat with the family...And HER *spin* on things was that it was of her own choice.
I picture an emotionally regressed, unsophisticated person, that is stuck at the emotional level of a 16 year-old, with her *sulks* and her "I'll show them!"...

This is the link to the 1890`s kitchen page
on Housemouse http://www.housemouse.net/hkitch9.htm.
It can be found on the first page in the Time Travels
links.

Wow, I came home from work and logged on to the forum and there is whole thread going on, cool!!!

Tracie, my Italian greatgrandmother sounds alot like your grandmother!  It was always, you're too thin, eat, eat for grandma.  Tell grandma what you want and she make it for you, hunh.  Everything from scratch for her grandbabies as she called us, nothing premade, boy, I miss her!  I would have loved to learn to cook at her side!

Thanks for the 1890s food list, Kimberly!  I had no idea Fig Newtons were around that long or Oscar Mayer hot dogs either!  One of my old co-workers married the heir to the Oscar Mayer throne, though I believe he is just a figurehead for the company.

Kat, I totally see Lizzie as you do!  When she had to eat with Andrew and Abby I totally see her sulky and quiet, playing with her food, perhaps making faces of disgust whenever Abby's head is turned.  Can you imagine the lively and sparkling dinner conversations they had?  I'm being facetious!!! 

Kim,
you found the "missing link.'

That's the one!

With Emma away, I'll bet is was even harder for Lizzie to act up, or act out...the way they might together, with solidarity.

Tootsie Rolls and Moxie. The diet of hatchet murderers.

Maybe she could have used the Twinkie defense? It has worked in recent years.

But seriously folks, this list of foods is tremendous! Who knew? Thank you thank you thank you.

I myself rather like the idea of Lizzie being sent away from the table because she is making things uncomfortable for everyone, and she turns it into a "my choice" scenario. I am only speculating, no proof of course. Just like the sound of it. At least for now.

While we are on the subject of Lizzie being moody,
I remember seeing a cartoon in a magazine of a
woman chasing a fly thru the house with a frying pan,
the caption was something about PMS. It was very profound,
it was perfect. I just thought I'd share that.

And if Lizzie is hypoglycemic, on top of it all?

[But her PMS would have been happening while she was away visiting.]

If a person isn't actually hypoglycemic any
"diet" conditions could cause odd behaviour, I myself
find it nearly impossible to drive if I have skipped a
meal or two. And I know it is not politically correct
to mention a womans hormonal ups & downs affecting
they way they act, but it is true, I don't think it is 
an excuse to kill people, of course.

Wasn't that the basis of Andrea Yates' defense? Isn't post-partum depression hormonal in nature? Regardless, it didn't work in her case. I guess murdering 5 children, no matter what the excuse, will not appeal to the hearts of juriors or the public.

If Lizzie was eating in her room, then wouldn't she have bugs up there too? I can just see it, empty water glasses on every table and dresser, trash can filled with tootsie roll wrappers and moxie bottles. Oh, sorry, I was describing my room. 

That bedroom description sounded familiar to me also!
I think the Andrea Yeats case was a pefect example
of society not accepting hormonal "excuses", but they
will turn right around & accuse you of being irrational
or moody because of it. And there are still people who are
convinced that women shouldn't be allowed to do certain
things, like be president or join the military
because they have too many moods to function like a man.

This is digressing but I couldn't resist. I once heard George Carlin say that if men had periods then they would be given 4 days off every month WITH PAY, tampax would be free, and flow would be measured and bragged about.

I hope this does not offend anyone. After all, a man said it!

Pardon me, but do they still have free "sanitary napkins" in women's restrooms at work?
I wonder if union shops have better accomodations for their ladies?

Where is there ANY value in George Carlin's words? Doesn't he still look like an old doper?

(Message last edited Aug-25th-02  4:21 PM.)

Free?

Speaking of mood swings, just how many men are totally stable and unemotional? Ever talk to somebody who backs a different team, sport, or political party? Where is the lack of emotion then?

We do know which sex is the boozing one. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Heck, I'd want 5 days. Might as well take the whole work week. No sense coming in just one day!

Yes, free. They had a box that had to be refilled regularly.
But its been many years since I had to use the ladies room on second or third shift. Back in the 1960s and later women could not work 3rd shift at my place of work. Most were secretarial anyway.
The only place that had a lounge to rest on, where the male manager would not trespass. Not that any mgr ever worked 3rd shift!
Not that I ever did this.

Oh, man, I know some guys that are a thousand
times moodier than any woman I've ever met, they wont
admit it though. They say things like "I've learned to
repress my feelings, why cant you?", meanwhile they
are driving everybody around them crazy with their
crankiness.

Has anyone ever read that study that said that men get periods too and go through PMS, they just don't have the outward physical signs like a woman does?  It makes sense to me as we are basically the same type of creature, just more of one hormone than the other.  I'm sorry, I don't recall which magazine I read this in, but, it was a woman doctor doing the study. 

If you really want to be grossed out, I read that men used to lactate. Why else would they have nipples? I am serious. It was one of those parts of the body they didn't need anymore, like our appendix.

What I need is a good index, not an appendix. But I digress from this digression!

I have a temperamental man in my life & when he is not
in a good mood he always says he is "ragging". I never
took it to be an insult, perhaps he is indeed.

See, I guess that woman doctor is right!!! 

Have you heard that when people are born with extra nipples
it is because evolution got some animals down to two when others
have rows & just be glad you only got one extra & not six?
I don't have any extras.

so what DID Lizzie eat?


(Message last edited Aug-25th-02  5:02 PM.)

Minute Tapioca Condensed soup Fig Newtons Canned pineapple 
Knox's Gelatin  Shredded Wheat Canada Dry Ginger Ale 
Grape Nuts  Cream of Wheat  Postum Jell-O Tootsie Rolls
Swans Down Cake Flour Uneeda Biscuits Entenmann bakery products
Pepsi-Cola Wesson Oil Cracker Jack Bottled Coca-Cola Crepes Suzettes Oysters Rockefeller Published brownie recipe US brunch fashionable English lunch S&H Food Stamps Public school hot lunches 
Malted milk Powdered pea and beet soups
Evaporated milk Aunt Jemima Pancake Flour
Coca-Cola Moxie Dr. Pepper Thomas's English muffins
Oscar Mayer wieners Salada Tea Tetley Tea Log Cabin Syrup
Morton's salt Canned meat and fruit in stores: 1880 Flaked Cereal 

Is Moxie like Pepsi? I've never heard of it.

Apparently the story is at one time we had litters like other animals, hence the extra nipples.


Stefani, back on topic, we know Lizzie like tripe and orange sherbet, oh, and pears.  Somehow I don't think that she was overly fond of mutton.  Did they have pizza then? 

I think she'd need a large quantity of bromoseltzer after she pigged out on some of that.

Trouble is Lizzie didn't do the food shopping so she would probably have to raid the icebox for what was available.

Yeah, but what was Moxie?

I saw a documentary on beverages on the History Channel and believe it or not, they still make Moxie. Apparently it tastes HORRIBLE. Just like coke it was originally marketed as a medicinal drink to cure all sorts of things, like PMS I presume. Oh, no, here we go again!

When you read some of the ads in the newspapers of that time sasparilla could virually cure anything. The medicinal ads are worth reading by themselves.

Kimberly, found a site for Moxie, will include the link for it.  According to what it says on the site, Moxie tastes like medicine, flat, bad root beer and a carbonated Fig Newton, ewww!

http://www.moxieworld.com/

Thank you!

Moxie can be ordered here:
http://www.mainegoodies.com/food/Moxie/index.htm

From anothe site I found this:
http://www.clede.com/Moxie.htm
"Moxie is a drink that dates back to 1884. It was developed by Dr. Augustin Thompson as a patent medicine to treat "loss of manhood, paralysis and softening of the brain."  But you have a hard time finding it today. The original New England company has long since disappeared. The trademarks and formula are now held by Monarch Co. of Atlanta GA. But Moxie is still bottled only in New England"

And for the ultimate history of Moxie:
http://www.crabcoll.com/journal/moxie.html

"Moxie is the uniquely New England soft drink, former nostrum and "nerve food". Dr. Augustin Thompson of Union, Maine, first marketed Moxie as a patent medicine in 1876 in Lowell, Massachusetts. It was guaranteed to cure multiple ills, including "loss of manhood, paralysis and softening of the brain". As a nostrum, it was dispensed a spoonful at a time.

Dr. Thompson changed Moxie to take advantage of the new and growing soft drink market at the time. He put it on the soft drink market in 1884 as "Beverage Moxie Nerve Food". Later it became known simply as "Moxie". It has a core of dedicated fans in Maine.


The "Moxie Man"

Moxie was America's most popular soft drink until the 1920's, due in large part to a very aggressive and effective advertising program. For many years this advertising program was the brainchild of Frank M. Archer. It is rumoured that Archer was the face for the trademark "Moxie Man". Frank started with the company as a clerk and rose to lead the advertising program which made Moxie synonymous with good times and the "vigorous" life that drinking the product was supposed to sustain. Moxie was the nation's first mass-marketed soft drink.

A combination of factors caused the decline of Moxie as the nation's favorite, and it was eclipsed by Coca Cola in the 1920's. Moxie has never regained its national appeal, and is found primarily in New England and a few other locations around the country.

I Like Moxie!

I happen to like Moxie - it is refreshing and doesn't have a cloyingly sweet taste like a lot of the soft drinks on the market. Not that I've always been a fan. Moxie is definitely an acquired taste, like brown likker. As a kid, it tasted like bad medicine to me. Later, when I came back to it, I discovered that I liked its unique taste.

The taste lines between the "I like Moxie" and the "Yuck, what is this horrible stuff?" camps are clearly drawn. People either love the stuff or they hate it. Families are divided over it. It just so happens, for example, that Dot and I like the stuff. Spouses Ed and Penny think that we're strange.

"It tastes like flat, bad root beer" is Penny's opinion.

Certainly Moxie's taste is unforgettable - to the point that early advertising campaigns informed potential patrons that they would have to "Learn to Drink Moxie". One fan suggested that it takes five drinks to acquire a taste for it. Some compare Moxie to drinking a carbonated Fig Newton. Moxie has been touted as a substitute for whiskey, and "The New England Cure for Alcoholism". Moxie was a favorite of President Calvin Coolidge.

Moxie with a little "m" is a noun synonymous wih having "spunk" or "guts", or more eloquently as the "attribute to bravely face difficulty with spirit and courage", or "aggressive energy to take the initiative". Some detractors feel that drinking Moxie (big "M") requires lots of moxie (little "m").

Although many think that the thought of drinking this stuff out of pleasure is incomprehensible, yet Moxie has a strong following who will drink no other soda. I once brought a bottle into the office and passed out samples to everyone. They had never heard of the stuff, let alone taste it. "Ugh" and "Yuck" were some of the gentler reactions - I made no converts that day.

Well, I figure that's their loss. I like the stuff, and for me that's enough. My only regret is that it can only be found in certain stores in New England, plus a few other places around the country (see "places to buy Moxie" below).

What's In It?

Moxie was originally very bitter and medicinal tasting. The primary ingredient was, and is, extract of gentian root. One of the other ingredients is wintergreen, an herb known as "moxie" when the formula was first concocted. There is speculation that this Algonquin Indian word (literally "maski" or "medicine") was the origin of the brand name Moxie.

Of course there are several other legends about the origin of the name Moxie, including Maine's Moxie Falls, Moxie Cave, Moxie Pond, Moxie Stream, Moxie Lake, East Moxie Township, Moxie Gore, moxie berries and moxie plums. Another story attributes the name to a Civil War-era Lieutenant Moxie who discovered a "starchy plant much like asparagus" in South America known to have great medicinal powers to give a "durable, vigorous feeling".

One recipe book (Dr. Dale Covey, The Secrets of the Specialists, 1903) lists oats, sassafras and wintergreen as Moxie's main ingredients. A later label lists water, sugar, cinchona (a bitter South American bark), alkaloids, caramel, and flavoring.

Many early concoctions had cocaine as a beneficial ingredient (including the original Coca-Cola formula). It is quite possible that Moxie also included cocaine to cure nervous exhaustion and loss of manhood, etc. In 1906 the Food and Drug Act outlawed the use of cocaine, and the formula was changed.

In the 1960's, the FDA ruled that sassafras was a potential carcinogen, and outlawed its use in food products. Moxie and the nation's root beers had to change their formulas once again to remove the sassafras.

Today, Moxie is flavored primarily with extracts of gentian root and wintergreen. Although it lacks sassafras, it tastes pretty similar to the way it did before. "

You're welcome! 

And thank you!

I think I'm getting confused.
Thank you everybuddy!

Good stuff, Stef.  Not the Moxie, the info.

It cures "loss of manhood"? Does that mean it is like Viagra?
That is very cool, I'm going to check this one out.

I was actually thinking of trying some myself! Whoever does actually taste the stuff should tell us all about it!

I wonder if William has ever tasted Moxie? I bet it isn't as awful as castor oil!

I bet it is wonderful with Ground Pork Peanut
Butter Cookies. I wonder if you could slip a man a Moxie, like
a love potion? Or would it be used like an aphrodisiac?

It doesn't sound like the kind of flavor that can be slipped into anything. Let me know if you can and it works the way you want it to.

Stefani, do you want pictures?

Here's the stuff they used in the 1890's. From the Evening Standard.

It even makes a moustache stand up. 

sure. we could add them to the web site. Make a new section entitled "Moxie and Me". Of course I would also have to add a parental warning, but hell, I had to do that for the autopsy photos anyway.

Y'all crack me up!

"Pizza as we know it" was available as a food in 1889.

(Now, as to home delivery, that's a whole 'nother question...)

Wow!  One of the better learning experiences I've had on the 'net.  I've never tasted Moxie, but I know that Moxie advertising is highly prized by those who collect antique advertising matter.  I guess Coca-Cola was the south's answer to Moxie.  I do recall that it once tasted much better than it does today (Coke, that is).  No, I'm not old enough to remember when it had cocaine in it.  I remember the wonderful fountain Cokes that were made with strong syrup and carbonated water.  Coca-cola syrup was actually sold as a medicine to settle upset stomachs, among other things.  I still find it to be a comfort "food" (or more accurately, beverage).  I'd like to try Moxie.

Gosh, they even make a Diet Moxie. Isn't that like Diet Castor Oil?

Does anybody here live in Maine and can smuggle us southerns a can of the stuff? If not, the site says they sel them for 2 bucks a can. I'm game. I could order a case and you all can pay for your share plus shipping if you want. I really want to try it. How about you?

Carbonated Fig Newton tasting soda?  Thanks, I think I'll sit this one out. 

My mother always has said there is nothing as awful as castor oil,
even the smell alone would gag you, when she was little
it was used as a cure all & they gave you some once a year to
clean you out. Or up & out.

I'm game for a can or two.  Les't see if we can get any other takers.  I wouldn't like to become addicted to the stuff and have to get it shipped in from New England for the rest of my life!

Can you tell if the ingredients listed are truly beneficial?  If they were, I'd try it!

I'd like to see a CURRENT label.

I'm still not quite sure...
especially when I read that one of the bottling companys is in CATAWISSA, Pa. & the people who put out the newsletter are named   G R O S S

(Message last edited Aug-27th-02  3:11 AM.)

Not to change the subject, but, I know what Lizzie ate after Andrew and Abby were autopsied.....

Thanks I needed a good laugh. What a funny thing to find.

Any more Moxie takers? So far, just me and Edisto and Kat. Come on, where is your sense of adventure?

BTW:  In the Sourcebook [of news articles] pg. 120, there is a quote from Matron  Wright, of the Taunton jail:
"Miss Borden is remarkably calm and self-contained, even cheerful;  today I allowed her to walk in the corridor after her sister came.  They walked up and down for some time, talking, even conversing with one of the prisoners, who told her story, and for whom they expressed their sympathy.  Miss Borden, despite her calm, did not sleep at all Friday night nor eat anything from the time she entered until noon Saturday;  then she and her sister dined together, a nice dinner being sent over from the hotel, where we ordered it at their request."

--I'll bet EMMA picked up the check!  Seems Lizzie would not dine unless it was the Best...
anyway, though there's not a date, the partial transcription above was probably from The Fall River Herald, and deduce the date as around Sunday, Aug. 14th... (arrested Thursday Aug. 11, slept 1st night at Taunton Friday the 12th?)

(Message last edited Aug-27th-02  1:13 PM.)

Well, I did buy some of those pheromones to try
on a feller once (it worked, somewhat, but it smells
like cheap perfume). So I'll join the Moxie experience club.
Belly up to the bar Susan, you want some also, right?

I am remembering that Lizzie was supposedly very ill Friday night, her 1st night in *lock-up*.  She was hysterical and repeatedly retched so that finally a doctor was called.
So even if she ate Friday, it was no more...

I know next to nothing about jail food, except they do not have a lot of paying customers. I once heard (while waiting for new tires) a man discuss the rating of food in the local jails. Some did not feed the first day, some had only a sandwich, others did better.
What is YOUR town's reputation?

I once read a book about an English criminal (1950-60s). He had spent so much time in jail that he learned to eat oatmeal in preference to anything else!

(Message last edited Aug-27th-02  5:07 PM.)

Kat, wasn't that the first time that tincture of morphine was administered to Lizzie?  I would think that she would be so drugged that any hunger pangs would have gone at that point, especially once the retching subsided!

No Moxie for me thanks!  I got enough moxie without drinking the stuff!  Besides, I don't think I want male virility as a side-effect from something I drink! 

I thought Bowen gave her Morphine Friday  the 5th of August and doubled it Saturday the 6th.  (Here we are:  Rebello, pg. 98, cites the trial, pg. 326-329 Bowen--she had it up until her arrest and hearing)

This jail time is the following week.

The article implies that Lizzie was afraid the attack would recur...
Maybe she was going through withdrawl?

"...The prisoners at Taunton jail are required to arise at 6 o'clock.  Their breakfast of fish hash, bread and coffee is served at 7.  On Sunday a dinner of meat, a few vegatables and water is served after 1 o'clock.  Lizzie arose with the others at 6 o'clock and made her own bed.  She had slept brokenly, but was still refreshed.  She drank a cup of coffee and a mere bite of bread, but wanted nothing more until noon.A little after that hour an expressman brought a dinner from the bill of fare of the City hotel, some blocks away, made up of tempting dishes.  Of this she partook quite heartily.  She is reported not to have suffered a return of the nausea, which overtook her on the day of her arrest, and of which she stands in dread.  She maintains that poise that has been the wonder of all since this tragedy and its mystery has turned so many eyes upon her."

Apparently after being arrested the Thusday she was held in the local jail and then moved to Taunton Friday, arraigned, then jailed in Taunton.  (Rebello, 156)
I'm a bit confused.  I've understood Lizzie to be sick Friday, but the source says "the day of her arrest."  But she wasn't IN Tauton the day of her arrest...she was there the 12th, the day of her arraignment...(?)

(Message last edited Aug-28th-02  12:15 AM.)

Wow, withdrawal symptoms, never thought of that!  Or, was it possible that it was a morphine overdose?  I'll have to check into if I can find what too much morphine does, but, not enough to kill you!

Fish hash for breakfast?  Yuck, I'd order out too!  Is there a recipe given for that?  I'll trade you one of my gross recipes if you have that one!

I wonder what was in that meal that she ate so heartily of?  Tripe again?

Yes, Lizzie's whereabouts sound confusing to me there too.  If I had been arrested like that, I think I would have been nauseous too, but, the whole time! 

It's amazing that this thread has pretty much stayed on topic, knowing my lax ways.  I guess there was more to talk about as to Lizzie and food, than I ever imagined!

I pictured JAIL food "fish hash" as the heads and fins and scales and guts and all the stuff you would throw away, but that is supposition, and could be wrong. They would get it cheap and mix with,  what?  Potatoes?  Isn't hash (the food) like potatoes?

I've been invisioning fish hash as being flaked like tuna fish and then fried in a skillet, maybe with onions and such, like regular hash browns.  But, then theres always cornbeef hash, which is ground up cornbeef, and theres nothing added to that!

I don't know why, but, I just got into my head that maybe Lizzie liked chicken-fried steak with biscuits and gravy.  Do you think they had that up in Massachusetts, its more of a southern food?

I checked out Morphine and believe it or not, Lizzie's protracted retching episode could have been from taking Morphine in the first place!!!

Most common side effects:drowsiness; lightheadedness; weakness; euphoria; dry mouth; urinary retention; constipation; pinpoint pupils.

Occasional side effects:allergic reactions: skin rash, hives, itching; headache; dizziness; impaired concentration; sensation of drunkeness; confusion; depression; blurred or double vision; facial flushing; sweating; heart palpitation; nausea and vomiting.

Least commmon side effects:anaphylactic reactions; hypotension causing weakness and fainting; disorientation; hallucinations; psychosis; unstable gait; tremor; muscle twitching; myasthenia gravis.

Risks:seizures

Symptoms of Overdose:marked drowsiness; dizziness; confusion; tremors; convulsions; stupor leading to coma; bradycardia; restlessness; depressed breathing.

From the site: www2.health-center.com 

(Message last edited Aug-29th-02  2:33 AM.)

That sounds like the same side effects as heroin.
I suppose they are related substances.
Good post info, Thanks!

Yea, Lizzie could have been retching from the drug.
I don't really know exactly how long she was on it:  Some say through the Prelim?
That's Aug. 11 to Sept 1st.
That's pretty bad.
I wonder when and how that Dr. Bowen brought her off the drug?

I wouldn't think it would make her appear so cool, calm, emotionless, and collected at the Prelim.  I'd think it would make her actually appear loopy, or tipsey at the least?

Well, according to Lincoln......she says that Dr. Bowen only administered Morphine at night for a few nights to help Lizzie sleep, not during the day.  So, in Lincoln's eyes, Lizzie had no reason for muddled thinking.  And she goes on to say that Morphine only causes hallucinations and such when administered intravenously, Lizzie was given this medication orally.  But, how she knows all this is beyond me? 

Being under so much stress it seems like it would have been impossible to stop taking it. I wonder if she ever stopped
at all? You know despite the new house & the money and
her freedom this was still a pretty rough life to have to live out,
guilty or not. 

Trial
Dr. Bowen
Pg. 328+

...Q.  I ask you about the morphine that you were giving her and you tell me on Friday you gave one-eighth of a grain, which is the ordinary dose, I understand, mild dose, and on Saturday you doubled it, you gave it, sent it, and she had it on Monday and Tuesday, and how long did she continue to have it?
A.  She continued to have that all the time she was in the station house.

Q.  After her arrest, was it not?
A.  And before.

Q. In other words she had it all the time up to the time of her arrest, the hearing and while in the station house?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  So that if before the arrest, she was one, two, or three days before the private inquest, she was there when she had been given for several days this double dose of morphine?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  I suppose physicians well understand the effect of morphine on the mind and on the recollection, don't they?

Page 329

A.  Supposed to, yes, sir.

Q.  Is there any question about it?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Do you know whether she had ever had occasion before to have morphine prescribed for her, as far as you know?
A.  I don't remember that she had.

Q.  Does not morphine given in double doses to allay mental distress and nervous excitement somewhat effect the memory and change and alter the view of things and give people hallucinations?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  There is no doubt about it, is there?
A.  No, sir.

MR. ADAMS. I have no further question.


RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.


Q.  (By Mr. Moody.)   How many times did you personally see her take the medication?
A.  Not more than twice, I think.

Q.  When were those two times?
A.  Between one and two in the afternoon, of Thursday.

Q.  And that was bromo caffeine?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Is bromo caffeine a medicine which has a tendency to create hallucinations a week or so after it has been taken?
A.  No, sir.

--It sounds as if Lizzie had morphine AVAILABLE, anyway, from Friday, Aug. 5th through the Inquest & her arrest which was Aug. 11... as we figured...and after her move to Taunton (presumably) Friday, Aug. 12th, the morphine ride was over.  I can't picture Bowen going all the way to Taunton to give her daily doses.  Hopefully she had it administered by the Matron, in decreasing doses from Friday on, while in Matron Wright's care.  The Matron was a friend of Lizzie's family from earlier years and would have helped Lizzie all she could.  Do you think doofus Bowen left her to withdraw from drugs on her own?
That really could be the retching Friday and the lack of appetite.  That's terrible if true.  She would just be coming out of her haze, stuck in a jail cell in another city, and a new orphan.
I think Matron Wright was probably the best thing to happen to Lizzie throughout this whole mess!  Lizzie cared enough for her to go on a couple of personal visits to see her after her release.

Ugh, I can't find the newspaper article where Lizzie was interviewed by the woman reporter.  If there is any truth to the article, Lizzie states that there is nothing that they can give her that can induce sleep.  That sounds like she may have had some sort of doctor's care at the prison.  But, what drug did they give her to sleep in prison if there is any truth to the newspaper article?

I agree, Kat.  Could you imagine coming down from this euphoric state and finding yourself in this prison cell in a strange town?  Matron Wright must have been some comfort for Lizzie! 

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=1&fid=27&taid=1&topid=166

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=1&fid=27&taid=1&topid=528

THE REST OF THE STORY--see starting POST #6

(Message last edited Sep-3rd-02  5:55 PM.)

  Thanks, Kat, as always!  I loved that little bit about me responding while you were still editing!

So, Lizzie just states in that interview that "nothing they can give me can produce sleep".  Whos they?  The people who work at Taunton?  Different doctors?  Her answers are so vague sometimes I just want to shake her!  So, it makes me wonder now more then ever if she was receiving some sort of medication to sleep or not? 

-Lizzie ..."they told me to change my dress"
-Abby, as quoted to the defense investigation, by Mrs. Dr. Bowen:   "...they took her front door key"
-Lizzie:"....nothing they give me can induce sleep"

Gotta be different "THEY'S"

Got any more?

They will come in the night and burn the house down over our heads while we sleep! 

oooo.  This is going good!

A. Yes, he has been here, if you remember the winter that the river was frozen over and they went across, he was here that winter, some 14 years ago, was it not?