1. "Lizzie leaves school"
Posted by harry on Oct-2nd-02 at 10:53 PM

I don't know what the exact age is today for kids to quit school and I have no idea what it was in the late 1870's when Lizzie left high school before graduating.

Did it require parental approval?  If it did, it is another example of parental indulgence to Lizzie by Andrew and perhaps Abby. I believe strongly that the final decision must have laid in Andrew's hands.

Formal education was probably thought not important for women (sorry ladies) in that era and Andy certainly was of that era.

It would be interesting to know the relationship then between Abby and Lizzie.  If it was hostile, Abby certainly couldn't have looked forward to having Lizzie home all day.  It must have been bad enough having to live with Emma who we know always disliked her. Still that was some 15 to 16 years before the murders.

Just thinking out loud.

I always thought that people used to go to school just long
enough to learn to read & write & learn the basics. And the
only ones who continued their education had careers in mind.
Maybe Lizzie's education was a non-issue because Andrew J. knew
she wasn't going to be a productive working woman. I wonder why nobody ever kicked bratty Emma out on her tail? It is bad enough
to have to put up with a sullen teenager but a sullen 40 year old
is just too much.

I wonder what she did all day long, our Lizzie.  She wasn't yet into Church activities.
Rebello, pgs. 10 & 11:
Mrs. Holmes says Lizzie life "was uneventful" after leaving school.  She had been taking piano lessons but gave them up awhile after...she didn't think she could meet her own high standards.

"She never danced in her life, and never attended parties where there was dancing.  After her admission to the church she even stopped attending theatrical performances.  ....She was a great reader..."  (according to Boston Herald, 1892, crediting Mrs. Holmes etc.)  (But we think she attended that Military Ball...)

Apparently she "just got tired of going to school", per Mr. Martins FRHS Quarterly Report, Winter, '94.

I looked for a defining moment during the period in which she gave up school, but there doesn't seem to be much going on in the Borden household, other than Morse coming to visit and Andrew retiring:

1877
Lizzie Borden leaves high school. (in junior year).

1877
John Morse visits Bordens.

1877
Rev. Buck's wife dies, age 49.

1878
Andrew J. Borden and Wm. M. Almy retire from Borden, Almy & Co. (continue to trade in real estate).

1878
Anthony Morse, Sarah and John Morse's father, dies in Ill.

Aug., 1878
Oliver Gray dies, age 77. (father of Priscilla Fish, Abby Borden, and Sarah Whitehead).

1878
Alice Russell, and mother, move to 96 Second St., upon the death of Alice's father. (the "Kelly" house).

1880 - census
Borden family at 92 Second St., has servant : Mary Greene, white, female, age 35, single, born in Ireland.

--Alice Russell moving next door may have been a godsend.
--That remark about the sullen Emma hanging around at age 40 (1891) was hilarious!
--I suppose Lizzie had a horse to play with.
--Didn't Bertha Manchester leave school early?  But for different reasons...


(Message last edited Oct-3rd-02  2:36 AM.)

Thats so strange that Lizzie would leave just before her senior year!  How can one just tire of school when you are so close to graduating?

So, since Lizzie didn't graduate, where did this gold class ring, as I've heard it refered to, come from that she gave to Andrew to put on his finger?

I wonder if Lizzie went to the military ball because this was the 1890s version of the USO, entertaining the boys?  Or, was it some sort of fund raiser with the church in mind?  Was Lizzie a wallflower, did she not know how to dance or did she have 2 left feet?

And, I too wonder what "the girls" did all day long, how many books can you sit and read?  How many times can you change your dress?  No wonder they fought with poor Abby all the time, they had nothing to occupy their time with! 

When I attended high school in the 1950s in a medium-sized town in North Carolina, there was no legal requirement to attend school after age 16.  We lost a lot of kids who turned 16, weren't doing well in school, and didn't have parents who valued education.  Just prior to my entering high school, the public schools had had only eleven grades; the twelth was added a few years before I entered.  That meant many people would have graduated at 17, or even younger.  I was only 16 when I got out of high school, and I didn't quit as Lizzie did.  (I took two grades in one year.)  I believe my aunt graduated from high school, went to college for two years, and began teaching school before her 18th birthday.  Some of her students were older than she was!  Even in my youth, there was no such thing as a teenager.  You were a child one day and an adult the next.  Anyway, I think Lizzie fitted the same pattern as some of my schoolmates: She was "old enough," she wasn't doing particularly well in school, and she didn't have parents who valued education.  I doubt if Andrew Borden had had much schooling, and the same may have been true of Abby, who had the role of parent in Lizzie's life.
The mills in Fall River employed many fairly young children, so there may have been no legal requirement for children to attend school.  The needs of the mill owners may have been the overriding concern.

(Message last edited Oct-3rd-02  2:59 PM.)

Well, she did go longer than most people did back then.
She might have graduated, schooling was less formal
then. You could graduate when you could pass a test, it seems?
I keep thinking about the Little House books lately.

Can you imagine having Lizzie & Emma sitting around all day
getting into trouble? I wonder if they liked to terrorize
Abby? Putting frogs in her lingerie drawer, or is that too
tomboyish? I bet they stuck their tongues out at her when
she wasn't looking.

Prior to the Great Depression, you only had to attend school until 8th grade (age 13?). Many born before WW I did just that; unless they were rich or very talented. It was raised to 16 (or 18) in the 1930s to keep kids off the street and from competing for jobs with their parents. Even today, in Penna, the Amish have an exception so they don't have to be schooled beyond age 12 (as far as I know).
Used to be age 11 was the age you became adult (for crimes, etc.).

Don't you learn more on your own after school than in school? There is no reason not to follow the European method. Ten years of schooling (primary & "high" school), then three years of college. Graduate at 19 and earn a living. We would be better off w/ this system, IMO. Ten years of 7 hour days should equal 12 years of 6 hour days. More cost-effective, too. Same summer vacation, of course.

"The Little House on the Prairie" was written in the 1930s when the author was in her 60s. About life circa 1870s. Her way of earning a living then? Well worth reading for its personal history in them good old days.

Graduating after 11th years makes sense if it was then the last year. Note how this simple fact (well known then) can lead to confusion today. Lizzie seems to have been a good student, and good. Read E Radin's book for stories from contemporaries.

I have most of the Little House books & I just adore
re-reading them, Laura Wilder could paint the most vivid
images, I grew up watching the series & was grown before
I ever got my very own collection of the books. I always
get to reading this time of year, I love to snuggle up & read
on cool autumn days.

Oh, I love the Little House books!!!  Did you see not too long ago the TV show of Laura Ingalls Wilder, the true story, not the series?  It was pretty interesting! 

I saw bits & pieces of it, when are they going to
do a Lizzie mini-series? You know there must be some
interest in it, people sure snatch & grab all the tapes
of 'The Legend' on eBay. On here y'all were talking something
about who should play her & Kate Winslet was mentioned, I
think she would be perfect. Even when she is quite thin
she has a beautifully chubby look about her, and she can
probably get the accent in no time.

(Message last edited Oct-3rd-02  11:32 PM.)

That was my suggestion.    Now, who could we get to play Emma?

You are good for the part of  Emmer.

I think I may be too tall to play, Emmer?  Wasn't she Lizzie's height?  Like 5'4" or 5'3"?  Tiny little thing, wasn't she?  So, I guess it depends on how tall Miss Winslet is, if shes about my height, I'm game! 

I tell you what...artistically, for dramatic purposes, if Abby is depicted as small and round and Emmer and Lizzie are depicted as tall that might give a *towering-over* effect,..a sinister LOOMING quality...that the girls took over that place with their very presence...

Yes, I would agree with that!  Artistically speaking, it would indeed make Abby's terror of the girls and poisoning all the more real if they overwhelmed her in height.  Its so odd to think that Andrew was probably considered tall in his day at 5'11" and I'm 5'9" which is considered tall for a woman today.  I would have been considered a giantess in Lizzie's day, a circus freak probably? 

I didn't know you were a freak, I just thought you were
crazy! Anyway, I always pictured Emma as a little
bird person, Kate Winslet is quite tall I think, but
still, Susan, you are too pretty to play Emma. Is there
really a movie planned? I'm always seeing plays advertised
online when I'm searching for Lizzie, even just a new TV
movie would be nice.  

Thank you, Kimberly.  I would love to see one of those plays if it ever made its way out here to sunny California, there are a wealth of theaters here!  A new movie would be wonderful, especially covering the points in Lizzie's life before the murders and after, that would be fantastic! 

I don't think they would ever find a child actress who could
really play her early years, the one in the Legend movie was too bland. I've always thought that as a little girl Lizzie was
probably as formidable as she was as an adult. I think she seems so
prissy & bossy & spoiled & I know she didn't just pick it up after
she was grown.

Oh, I'm sure that they could find a bratty little actress to play her.  Look at Kirsten Dunst in Interview with the Vampire.  I think she would have been perfect, but, is too old now.

Which brings me back to the topic of Lizzie leaving school.  I wonder if it had something to do with her not getting along with the other students, social pressures, peer pressure? 

Oooh, she was good & evil wasn't she? I wonder if she
could pass for thirty-two? It is hard to imagine Lizzie
as a teenager but it is easy to get an idea of her as a
little girl. Did they even have peer pressure is the 1860`s &
70`s? What would it have been? You have to do 'what' to be
accepted, I wonder just how bad 'what' got in post-Civil War
New England, I live in Amish country so I see 19th century
people all the time, they don't do a whole lot.

How about an all black cast-Queen Latifah as Lizzie, Nell Carter as Abby, Scatman Crothers as Andrew, Al Sharpton as Rev Buck, Cicely Tyson as Emma, Jada Pinkham as Nance O"Neil...(Somebody stop me-stop me)

Kashesan, I love it!  Thats great!  How about Alfie Woodard (sp?) for Alice Russell? 

How about Jesse Jackson for Hilliard?  He could ask questions in rhyme form and take a little shakedown money from Lizzie.

Johnny Cochran as Robinson.

(Message last edited Oct-7th-02  12:26 PM.)

Fiddy Whack-the Musical

You know you are a Bordenite
When this all sounds perfectly reasonable.

  Della Reese as Adelaide Churchill!  Whitney Houston as Mrs. Brigham!  This is great!  But, I can't help but think that I would still love to see another Lizzie movie made with people portraying the originals a bit closer to how they actually were. 

Queen Latifah as Lizzie is perfect. How about Halle Berry
as Bridget?

How about LaToilet Jackson?    She could really use the work since the psychic friends network kicked her out. 

Oooo, I found this link, pretty cool!  Lizzie does cross racial barriers! 

http://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/N2502.bv.com/B1039790.3;sz=468x60;ord=2002.10.8.6.5.14.0?

(Message last edited Oct-8th-02  2:13 AM.)

Hey, girly-girl, is your link right? It keeps showing
a blank screen for me. Maybe a server error?

WOW!  Good for them!

Butterfly McQueen as Bridget

Lizzie (Queen Latifah): Maggie! Get your fat a** out of that bed!
Bridget: But Miss Lizzie, I just finished the windows and Mizz Borden out on a sick call...
Lizzie: SOMEBODY JUST 86ed DADDY!
Bridget: Miss Lizzie! Miss Lizzie!

Instead of Fiddy Whack how about "Gone Daddy Gone!-the Musical"

(Message last edited Oct-8th-02  7:39 AM.)

Okay, try this link.  Its for a site called Black Voices.

http://new.blackvoices.com/travel/destinations/norfolk/sns-mass-lizzieborden.story

Woo hoo!  Success, tried it and its working fine! 

(Message last edited Oct-8th-02  12:00 PM.)

That one works for me also, now I just wish I could
figure out the video.

Hmmm, Butterfly McQueen as Bridget, that might work, you know
how Bridget was supposed to be fussing about having to wash the
windows, Ms. McQueen was good at playing fussing women, wasn't
she?

(Message last edited Oct-8th-02  2:10 PM.)

Oh no, I'm having visions of Butterfly as Prissy in GWTW, but, in Fall River!  Lawsy Miss Lizzie, I don't know nuthin' bout making no pie outta' dem pigeons!  Or how about, Ma always saw you put an axe in dey head, it cut the pain in two! 

This one hasn't really got back onto the main topic, has it?
What was the main topic? Why did Lizzie quit school, I think.

Well, its kinda-sorta on topic, all African American cast for a Lizzie show, oh, and don't forget my link, so, while we're not on topic with the post, it is still about Lizzie in some way. 

Maybe Lizzie finished 11th grade (the last year according to somebody). Then went on the Grand Tour (like many of her class)?

[So what does this have to do w/ "solving" the crime?]

msg # 40 I think AR Brown's book touches on Lizzie marriage prospects. Brown says anyone w/ enough money to satisfy Andy could find better pickings; anyone w/ less money wouldn't be acceptable. Not to mention any suggested eccentricities of Lizzie (or Emma!).
E Radin does say circulated in many parties.

(Message last edited Oct-9th-02  4:35 PM.)

Didn't her tour of Europe come later? Wasn't it a few
years before the murders? Would anyone bother sending her
twice? If she didn't meet a prince the first time any point
of trying again?

And poor Emma never got that chance or didn't take Andrew up on it!  But, I guess if she did get married she wouldn't be able to care for "baby Lizzie"? 

Do you think Emma would have killed for Lizzie? Or would
she hire someone to do it? I wonder if all the hostility in
the house was exaggerated by gossips? I cant figure out
why if Lizzie & Emma were so mean & Andrew & Abby were so
mean, why didn't anyone bother to move? Two sisters living
alone seems quite proper, it wasn't like they would have been
having wild parties & brawls. Those didn't start until they
moved to maplecroft.

Lizzie left school in 1877, and her trip to Europe was in 1890.  It has been surmised that her dowry money was used to finance the voyage, as supposedly Lizzie, at 30, was now past her prime.

Maybe those girls knew something we don't.  Maybe V. Lincoln smelled the smoke but mistook the fire.  I'm referring to the early deaths of Little Borden girl, Alice, and Lurana's only child, George of brain disorders:

"March 10, 1858
Alice Esther Borden dies. ("dropsy on brain"- hydrocephalus)"

"March, 1867
George B. Harrington dies, age 9 1/2, of 'brain disease'."
(From Chronologies, LABVM/L)

That's a problem in the sister and the cousin.

[Ray:  that "according to somebody" remark was hilarious!  I really cracked up.  I hope it's OK that it hit my funny-bone...]


(Message last edited Oct-10th-02  1:26 AM.)

What happened to poor Emmer's dowry money?  Did she get it and sock it away for a rainy day instead of a trip to Europe?  I wonder why she didn't go with Lizzie, as a chaperone at least! 

To hear Victoria Lincoln tell it there was something severely
wrong with Lizzie's mind, that in addition to her 'spells', she
was really stupid & could not hardly function socially, she
basically tells her readers that Lizzie was almost retarded.
That book was quite cruel, she knew gossip & that was what she
was telling. Reading others she seems like a handfull
(to say the least) but she isn't that weird. If there was
some brain disorder in the family, I wonder why none of the
others got into as much trouble?

Emma seemed to be a gadabout, it is strange that she didn't
go to Europe also. It seems like a once in a lifetime thing,
why miss it? Was the trip really a cure for Lizzie's 'nerves'?
I wonder if Emma referred to herself as 'Poor Emma'?

Please borrow a copy of Edward Radin's book where he investigates the case. Some living witnesses from the times, some sons of contemporaries. Lizzie when younger seems to have been just ordinary, and no where near the witch of the legend. Or later, for that matter.
Distinguish the person's family and friends as opposed to strangers.

Radin also wrote a book on the many unjustly convicted. He seems to be a much better person than Pearson's lusting for executions. To me, it seems that there was something deficient in Pearson's personality. Executions, more than govt, is a necessary evil; IMO.

Given the lack of vitamins and antibiotics then, many, many died who would now be saved. But it also raises the question of "inherited insanity" (a euphemism) in the family. If this was believed, even if not true, THAT alone would be one reason for their spinsterhood.

Lizzie does seem more regular than her older sister, or is it just that her younger years are unknown? BTW, does anyone know of relative or neighbors who had a family member murdered? Does it make them popular or what?

Over 20 years ago I knew of distant relatives whose son was killed by a "hit and run" (they caught the guy). But his sister and brothers moved out of the area. Rumors of something?

I live in a small town with zero bookstores, the
library currently has no Lizzie books, it takes
forever for them to borrow anything. I always check
online & everything Lizzie related is usually more
than I have to pay, books are a splurge for me.


I for one have never known anyone who was murdered,
or even did anything to get in the newspapers. Hopefully
I never will.

You know me, and I've been in the papers a couple of times!  The day i was born, art contests I won as a kid, and when I got married.  But, sorry, no murders here.