Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: What's left of Lizzie's world?

1. "What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by harry on Nov-1st-02 at 6:22 PM

If Lizzie could walk the streets of Fall River again she probably wouldn't recognize much.

On Second Street alone, the Churchill, Kelly, Chagnon, and Bowen/Miller houses are all gone.  The barn and back yard of #92 are gone and a print shop is attached to one side of the property. The Crowe yard is gone.

I don't know how much of downtown has changed (excluding hwy 195) since 1927. The Academy building which may have still been a theater in 1927 is no longer a theater.  Her old church is now a cooking academy and restaurant.

How about some of the other buildings?  The Granite Block, the Mellen House and St. Mary's Cathedral?  Are they still there and in use?




2. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-1st-02 at 6:59 PM
In response to Message #1.

God/dess!  I'll never get over how they gutted that beautiful library!
The Borden Bldg. now looks in photos like any other building...I'm sure she'd walk right past that without knowing.
Isn't the old police station gone?


3. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-2nd-02 at 1:34 PM
In response to Message #1.

But wouldn't this be true about most home towns nowadays? After WW II many old buildings from the 19th century would be worn out and decrepit? Or worth tearing down to put up new buildings? Not to mention the more likely case of fire.
Old mansion becomes an apartment house, then down-level rooming house. Drinking and smoking causes a fire. The owner collects the fire insurance, then sells out.

If you have rental property, and amortize its costs, after about 30+ years the value is gone. Then sell or await an accident. (I'm talking about rented tenements here.)

Back around 1962 I workd in midtown Manhattan, 49th St and Sixth. When I came back around 1972 ALL the 5 story buildings along 6th Ave had been replaced by skyscraper office buildings. You can look it up.


4. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-2nd-02 at 10:36 PM
In response to Message #3.

Living in Florida things change constantly.
We went on a trip across country in a Winnebago one year, most of the family, and were gone about 16 days.
When we got home it was night, having driven straight through from Kansas City.  Our dad drove right past our street where it dumps out onto the Big Road!
They had removed the distinctive tall slender pines that embellished our neighborhood entrance.  Not seeing those familiar sentinels caused a tired man to miss his own street after driving 6,000 miles!  (Well, I did drive some...out in the desert).


5. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Susan on Nov-3rd-02 at 2:46 PM
In response to Message #4.

Who was it that said, you can never truly go back home?  Its so true!  I can remember the last time I was back east and we drove by my old neighborhood and family home, everything had changed!  I felt discombobulated, I think our Lizzie would be too! 


6. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by harry on Nov-3rd-02 at 3:48 PM
In response to Message #5.

Tha main thing I noticed about my old childhood neighborhood was how small everything looked.  And how narrow the streets were.  You tend to remember it much bigger than it actually was.  A child's viewpoint I guess.

Lizzie would find some things the same though.  92 Second St., Maplecroft, the Swansea farm house, the A. J. Borden building, the library (?), the Academy building.  All have been modified to some extent but they are recognizable.

We need  Kash to bring us up to date on what's left.


7. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Susan on Nov-3rd-02 at 3:51 PM
In response to Message #6.

Is there a current picture available of the Swansea farmhouse?  I was always curious as to what it and its environs looked like.  Was it bigger or smaller than 92 Second Street, was it close to town or way out in the boonies?  So many questions, so few answers. 


8. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by harry on Nov-3rd-02 at 3:59 PM
In response to Message #7.

There's a picture of the summer home in Swansea in Rebello, page 43.  It's a one story flat roof house. The picture says it was taken in 1992. Apparently it was well kept by subsequent owners.


9. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by kimberly on Nov-3rd-02 at 4:07 PM
In response to Message #8.

Can someone post the pic for we Rebello-less ones?

Here in my little town we have an old city graveyard, very
small, founded it the early 1800`s. The graves were scattered
around & for some strange reason the town decided to fix it
up & they took all the headstones & lined them up in one corner,
can you imagine? They are no where near the graves now. Is
that not the dumbest thing?


10. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by harry on Nov-3rd-02 at 4:18 PM
In response to Message #9.

From a newspaper (Providence-Journal, 8/27/2000) article on Swansea:

"The farmhouse at 1205 New Gardner's Neck Rd. is perhaps the most infamous house in the area. In 1874, it was purchased by Andrew J. Borden and his business partner William Almy, both of Fall River, Mass."

Thanks to Mr. Rebello for his saving of all these Lizzie places.

Oops, my mistake.  The roof is not flat.  You'll get old too. 


11. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by kimberly on Nov-3rd-02 at 4:34 PM
In response to Message #10.

Well that was fast! Thanks Harry! I wasn't expecting a
Cape Cod style house, I don't know what I was thinking it
would look like. That makes #92 look big, they did have
modest New England tastes, didn't they? Even Maplecroft
was kind of plain.


12. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Susan on Nov-3rd-02 at 5:22 PM
In response to Message #10.

Thanks, Harry!  My goodness, thats a tiny house!  For some reason I pictured the Swansea house to be a 2 storey boxy type of house with a front porch with gingerbread trim on it.  That is so not what I was expecting, it doesn't look like much.

So, did the Bordens and the Almys vacation there together? 


13. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by harry on Nov-3rd-02 at 6:08 PM
In response to Message #12.

I haven't seen anything about the Almy's socializing with the Bordens' but we know so little about their friends and acquaintances.  Almy also owned a house (or houses) in Swansea so they probably did not stay together.

There were many land transactions in Swansea made by Borden and Almy. Andrew owned two farms.  In Rebello it also says the house was referred to as "the farm".  All that is confusing when you are trying to understand which one they are referring to.


14. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-4th-02 at 2:32 AM
In response to Message #13.

That was so cool that you put that picture up!  Thanks, Harry.

The front of a house is in no way indicative of the size of it's total area.
The front of my house is small...looks like a 3 bedroom.  You see a garage, a porch, a double living room window, and one bedroom window across the front and that's IT.
But in the rear there is an "ell", and I have 5 bedrooms total and a screened back porch!

(Message last edited Nov-4th-02  2:34 AM.)


15. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Susan on Nov-4th-02 at 2:40 AM
In response to Message #13.

So, is Rebello sure that that is the house that the Bordens stayed at when they went to Swansea?  It does sound confusing, 2 farms in Swansea at the same time.  Were Andrew's hired help at the house pictured or were they at the other farm? 

Kat, sounds like you have room to put up the Bordenites should they come visiting. 



(Message last edited Nov-4th-02  2:41 AM.)


16. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-4th-02 at 3:21 AM
In response to Message #15.

I'm like Kimberly in that she says  *I don't like company...I wish they would go home.*  (not her direct quote)
My catz HATE it.


17. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kashesan on Nov-4th-02 at 7:42 AM
In response to Message #6.

I just heard my name- Heck I think the only thing she would recognize is 92 Second St! And if she squinted, she might be able to recognize something of what used to be Maplecroft (Now Maplesauce)
Downtown Fall River is like all industrial boom towns after the boom-not much cookin' And not much for Lizzie to do, 'cept mabe buy a cell phone...

(Message last edited Nov-4th-02  7:46 AM.)


18. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by kimberly on Nov-4th-02 at 2:52 PM
In response to Message #16.

I was wondering what was I talking about, and then
remembered it was something about being from Tennessee &
snipe hunts, correct?


I asked myself over, what speaking I was, and am that then reminds something him regarding to be threshing floor lake and the hunt correct snipe was?

(Message last edited Nov-4th-02  2:56 PM.)


19. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by kimberly on Nov-4th-02 at 2:54 PM
In response to Message #16.

I am, how Kimberly of the fact does not say her * I likes the society... that I wishes that they go to the house. * (not its direct quotation) my ATZHASS it.


20. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kashesan on Nov-5th-02 at 8:00 AM
In response to Message #18.

Kim-how do you arrive at these translations? They are too funny!


21. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by kimberly on Nov-5th-02 at 12:37 PM
In response to Message #20.

That is English to French to German and then to English again.
I don't think I've cracked up as much in a long time.


22. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-6th-02 at 4:30 PM
In response to Message #8.

The Swansea farmhouse in the photo doesn't look much like a farmhouse. Is this type farmhouse typical of Massachusetts? If the photo was taken in 1992 then there could have been so many changes to the exterior that it barely resembles the old Borden's farmhouse.


23. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-8th-02 at 12:29 PM
In response to Message #1.

Harry, do you or anyone else who lives around Fall River tell me how to pronounce the "Quequechan" River? Kay Ke Kan or Key Key Chan, what is it?  I know it means Falling Water and is an Indian name. 


24. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by harry on Nov-8th-02 at 1:21 PM
In response to Message #23.

Sorry Carol, I live in S.C. a bit away from Fall River. My mind has interpreted it several ways:

Key-key-chan, Kay-kay-chan and Kwee-kwee-chan.

I checked some of the books and found no pronunciation. Brown says it's a Pocasset Indian name meaning "swift" or "falling water".

Kash? Bob Cook?  Help!


25. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Susan on Nov-8th-02 at 8:03 PM
In response to Message #24.

Boy, I guess I may be very off the mark, I always thought it was pronounced KYOO KYOO CHAN, or KYOO KA CHAN. 


26. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-8th-02 at 9:33 PM
In response to Message #23.

In my mind it came out "KeKaKan"


27. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-8th-02 at 10:31 PM
In response to Message #24.

I've always wanted to visit the east coast.  If I had stayed where I was born, in North Carolina, I would have been your neighbor Harry.

Thanks everyone for the help.  We all can't be too far off.

If I attempt to pronouce it I'm afraid a local would nail me.  You can always tell someone is from out of state here when they call Oregon ORE E GONE, because we say ORE E GUN.  But some people don't care what they are called as long as you call them in time for dinner.  Words are so interesting.


28. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rod1148 on Nov-8th-02 at 10:53 PM
In response to Message #23.

My Dad grew up in Fall River, I was there again just a few years ago.  I think they pronounced it "quick i chan"  short i accent on first sylable


29. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by harry on Nov-9th-02 at 12:37 AM
In response to Message #28.

Hi Rod, welcome.

Do you mean "quick eye chan"?


30. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-9th-02 at 3:34 AM
In response to Message #29.

Hello Rod!
I never would have gotten that one!

Quick-e-chan?

You got the "chan" part Harry!  More than I got.

Rod what did you do last time you were in Fall River?  Was it visiting family or were you connected to this case?


31. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-10th-02 at 12:08 PM
In response to Message #30.

Thanks a million, Rod. How did you get involved with the Lizzie case? Do Fall River people have a Boston accent? Am trying to get a picture in my mind of how Lizzie might have actually sounded when she spoke and am not sure if the Boston accent is unique to that city or generally of all Massachusetts.


32. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-11th-02 at 2:59 AM
In response to Message #31.

Lizzie's Calendar


I wonder if she put chalk marks on the wall of her detention room all those many months?


llll llll  llll  llll   llll  <Lizzie's marks

(Message last edited Nov-11th-02  3:00 AM.)


33. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Robert Harry on Nov-11th-02 at 12:45 PM
In response to Message #1.

I am not Rod, but I can certainly answer the question about the Fall River accent, for I lived there for a summer (before my interest in Lizzie, unfortunately) and also lived elsewhere in New England for various lengths of time.  Yes, indeed, there is a decidedly recognizable accent.  The people in Providence/Fall River/Taunton have what people would call a "Boston" accent.  However, it is somewhat flatter and a bit more nasal than Boston.  JFK (though he was an Irish Catholic) spoke with the "Boston Brahmin" accent of the old, established class.  Lizzie's accent, I think, would not have been quite that. I think she would have said, for example, "Fahhhl Rivuh," for "Fall River." Or, "may I ahhhfahh you cahhhfee," for "may I offer you coffee."  Or, "Lizzie Eeaandroo Booahhdun" for "Lizzie Andrew Borden."  Am I right, New Englanders?


34. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-11th-02 at 8:30 PM
In response to Message #33.

Oh that was SO good!
I could close my eyes and BE there...except then I couldn't read your post!

Would you mind posting some more?
Phoenetically like you did?


35. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Robert Harry on Nov-11th-02 at 10:27 PM
In response to Message #34.

I looked up some phrases from Lizzie's inquest testimony:

"No seuhh, they wuh nawt haaahhsh weuuuhds."
"No sir, they were not harsh words.

"Accawding to yawhr idear of cawhhdjeeality."
"According to your idea of cordiality."

The first lines are "Faaahhhl Rivuh-ese"
The second are standard English.


36. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Robert Harry on Nov-11th-02 at 10:38 PM
In response to Message #35.

I would love to do more--just give me some suggestions.  At one time I knew the international phonetic system.  I know I am not doing justice to the pronunciation, but I'm trying. 
By the way, I know this is off topic, but I recently saw a special on PBS about Frank Lloyd Wright.  Did you know that his house servants killed his wife and family (while he was away).  It seems Mrs. Wright had just informed the servants that they would have to be let go.  THe servants calmly and defferently served the meal.  THen, as they were working in the kitchen they were also nailing shut all the doors except for one.  THey set the place on fire and fled, killing everyone.  Does this suggest that those who suspect Brigid Sullivan may in fact be onto something?


37. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-12th-02 at 12:59 AM
In response to Message #36.

What a couple of cool posts!  I am thoroughly amused!
Sorry it took so long to get back...I was doing some genealogy (BORING) while watching football (Madden is MORE boring).
Well, I really liked that "translation"  Using Lizzie's Inquest testimony was a good idea.  Her actual words in her probable accent.
Great.
You can do as much as you want.  I would love to "hear" her some more.
Am I way off base by thinking this soumds slightly southern?
I've always had an impression that a British accent, slowed down, sounds somewhat southern?
What do you think?  Because I want to hear it correctly, and I can get rid of that "southern" ear if need be.


38. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-12th-02 at 11:50 AM
In response to Message #35.

Thanks Robert Harry for the phonetic rendition of Lizzie Borden.  Also for enlightening us on the Massachusetts accent. The phonetic of saying Fall River in Bostonionese is wonderfully realistic. So then we would have four people in the house with that accent and then Bridget with an Irish English accent with the faint overlay of her acquiring the Bostonian accent. She probably lost all that when she moved to Montana.

Bridget to me is a dark horse in the story. I can't find a motive. No witnesses spoke about any tension between her and her employers or the sisters. She was young and able to secure a position quickly elsewhere.  She doesn't appear to me to be a person who would hang around if things were really bad for her, i.e., she also left that Thursday night and spent it across the street, probably her own idea, so she had spunk.

But, maybe she was a black dahlia after all, and having to wash those windows after being sick in the morning and all set her off. As you say, murder of employers has been done by other domestics through time. Seems she could have used poison easier since she was the cook but maybe she felt, if she did it, that being in the food would point directly to her.

What else do you think about Bridget?


39. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Robert Harry on Nov-12th-02 at 5:49 PM
In response to Message #37.

I do think there are some similarities between New England accents and Southern accents, Carol.  In fact, besides being a quasi-linguist, I lived in both places.  Curiously, there are some parts of Georgia and Louisiana where the accent actually has parallels with Brooklynese of all things.  And you mentioned that these various accents are somewhat "embedded" in the English accent.  Having studied linguistics, I learned that the English of the United STates is actually an older style of spoken English than the English of England.  It seems that since the time of the discovery of America, Britain underwent several "sound shifts" that never caught on here.  Also many usages of America are, in fact, "old English."  In the South, you had lots of Scots-Irish folks and also Africans.  It seems that the mutual influences of these peoples' spoken language resulted in a certain typical style of speech.  One example that comes right to mind is the usage by many African-Americans of the present participle.  In Virginia, I remember, Black people often say: "It do be rainin'."  This is a very ancient use of English.  As for New England, you had Puritans and other folks coming from certain regions of England that must have had typical speech patterns. 


40. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-12th-02 at 6:01 PM
In response to Message #38.

Bridget is INNOCENT, Lizzie said so ("it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father"). The police investigated them all anyway, of course. But that statement told them that Lizzie knew more than she told.


41. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Robert Harry on Nov-12th-02 at 6:03 PM
In response to Message #38.

I'm sorry, Kat, for calling you "Carol" in the last message. I, too, am a relatively new computer user and I still get confused about whose message I'm answering.  By the way, I want to thank you and Harry for reassuring me and encouraging me to jump in and post my thoughts.  Now, Carol, re: Bridget--I thought I had just about completely resolved that she was innocent.  I had read RAdin's book and like so many others, just could not find enough of a motive for her.  HOWEVER, now that I have found this site, I read the essay by Carolyn Gage (obviously based on Radin) which got me wondering again.  It does seem that no one really seriously considered her a serious suspect.  Everyone just believed her, referring to her as the "servant girl" (which is quite patronizing and dismissive).  What I'd like to know is--Why DID she immediately go up the front stairs to look for Mrs. Borden rather than the back?  Why DID she run right into the room instead of fleeing as did Mrs. Churchill (or was it Alice Russell).  Why DID she think they were coming to arrest her?--did she really think that? And, was she in fact seen limping away from the Borden house with a shawl over her head?  I don't know that she was just peeved about having to wash the windows--there may have been a whole lot simmering inside.  Also, she is likely to have been physically stronger than Lizzie. (Just how much force does it take to whack open skulls?)In any case, now I think she must have been in on something.  With her running back and forth to get water, and circumnavigating the house, whoever killed the Bordens was taking an awfully big risk of discovery.  I just can't imagine Lizzie flinging a hatchet on a barn roof--in fact, I break up laughing every time I try to picture it.  Also, what about those bloody rags in a bowl that the police mention and Lizzie says they had been there for a while but Bridget says she didn't notice them the previous day?


42. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-13th-02 at 1:22 AM
In response to Message #40.

I had to reply to this.  I am smiling.
Ray, if Lizzie didn't tell all she knew, then in some instances she was lying, right?  (Like saying she never saw Morse his last visits, for example?)
Well, if Lizzie LIED than how can she be Believed when she says Bridget didn't do it?

--I'm waiting for someone to answer Robert H.
This is a good post of good questions...


OHOh, Robert, did you read the Gerald Gross rebuttal to the "Pearson -Radin Controversy?"  I'll go read it again before I start answering...OK?
http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=1&fid=27&taid=8&topid=21&ut=1010542721

(Message last edited Nov-13th-02  1:29 AM.)


43. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Robert Harry on Nov-13th-02 at 9:13 PM
In response to Message #42.

Hi, Kat.  Thanks for Gerald's rebuttal.  I must admit, it is for me quite alluring as a hypothesis.  I think Lizzie/Bridget as accomplices makes the most sense of any I've heard or read.  I'd like to explore Bridget some more.  How much do we know about her?  Did she go to Mass at St. Mary's every Sunday?  Are any of her descendants still alive?
Also, (I know, I'm famous for wandering off topic) I just saw a special on the JonBenet Ramsey case, and it's a great example proving that sloppy police work and fouled-up investigations were not only phenomena of the 19th century.
I am currently on jury duty but alas! nothing nearly as exciting as the Borden case!!


44. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Susan on Nov-14th-02 at 12:48 AM
In response to Message #41.

Hi, Robert Harry.  Sorry, I was sick and haven't been on the forum for a few days, so I couldn't reply on your wonderful New England accent posts, my one grandfather lived in Boston and he sounded very much like a Kennedy!

I too have always wondered why Bridget went straight to the front stairs to go find Abby and I had it explained to me and it made sense, let me see if I can do the same now!  Lizzie was in the kitchen at the time that she suggested that she thought that she heard Abby come in, would someone look for her?  Bridget and Mrs. Churchill had just come down from getting sheets in Abby's room and she wasn't there.  If Abby had just come in the side door she probably would have come in the kitchen and Lizzie would have seen her and known for sure she was home.  If Abby had come in the front door, she would have had to have gone through the sitting room to get to the back of the house and as no screams or the sound of Abby's body crashing to the floor as she fainted was heard, she didn't come through there.  So, that left one place that Abby could have gone to, up the front stairs.  According to Lizzie's testimony Abby kept many of her personal belongings in the guest room, so, she may have been putting something away when she got back from her sick call.  Does that make any sense?  Personally I would have called up the front stairs for Mrs. Borden and then maybe gone to check when she didn't answer.

I don't know the reason for Bridget running into the guest room to look, perhaps she was so wrapped up in Lizzie's "I thought I heard her come in" story that she didn't even begin to think that Abby was dead.  How Mrs. Churchill knew with just that cursory look is beyond me, unless she waited until Bridget came out and gave her a look or shake of her head or something?

Why did Bridget think that they were coming to arrest her?  Well given the anti-Irish sentiment at that time and place, innocent or not, Bridget may have thought that they would pin it on her being the lowly Irish servant.

Was Bridget actually seen limping?  Is that in any of the trial testimony or is it an author's book?  I recall reading that, but, I think it may have been an author's invention.  Do you remember where you read that? 


45. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-14th-02 at 1:12 AM
In response to Message #41.

Motive has always been the issue when it comes to seriously considering Bridget as the killer.
Gross has her in cahoots with Lizzie which, as you say, makes more sense.
Muriel Arnold has a decent book called The Hands of Time which places Bridget and Morse in a conspiracy.  I think she was supposed to recover some papers of Andrew's to give to Morse and he paid her for her participation.  I'm a bit foggy on the details.  But it IS another theory with more Bridget-In-It.

Good post Susan.  I am glad you are feeling better!

A lot of member's have heard this before from me over time:
That the wrong person was found dirty, wet, disheveled, sweating, and she vomitted also, about the time of Abby's murder!  This has always seemed SO suspicious to me!
Lizzie is pristine.  Her hands are white (and yes, clean-looking---apologies to whomever it was I declared that no one said "clean") even though there are 2 bloody dead bodies in the house and she claims she was rooting around in the dusty barn moving lumber!

But Bridget fits the bill!  She has exerted, has no alibi for the times of each death, and did leave the premises, as you say, 4 times that Thursday!
Arnold, the author, has Bridget tossing the implement of death into the river on a side trip on her way to get Alice Russell.
Your addition of physical ability, also can be entered into the equation.


46. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-14th-02 at 2:25 AM
In response to Message #44.

Robert was talking about reading Radin.
I think it is in Radin...pg 200+ somewhereabouts


47. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Susan on Nov-14th-02 at 2:40 AM
In response to Message #46.

Oh, okay, thanks!  Haven't read Radin in years and hes not in my home library.  Amazing the amount of stuff that stays lodged in my brain for years! 


48. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-14th-02 at 4:13 PM
In response to Message #42.

The police checked out Bridget and the men who worked for father, no matter what Lizzie said. They were never suspected, then or now.


49. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-14th-02 at 4:14 PM
In response to Message #42.

The police checked out Bridget and the men who worked for father, no matter what Lizzie said. They were never suspected, then or now.

NOT telling all you know is NOT lying. (But it could come close in some cases.)


50. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-14th-02 at 8:40 PM
In response to Message #49.

Wasn't it part of the conspiracy of Brown, that Lizzie would have to have met with or been in contact with Uncle Morse?
She says she wasn't, under oath.
Isn't that lying?

The very fact that the police "checked" out people implies there was some suspicion about them.  They would not be doing their job if they did not check all these people out.


51. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by haulover on Nov-14th-02 at 9:19 PM
In response to Message #50.

about the radin theory:  he does all he can to get lizzie off the hook.  he never succeeds in pinning it on the maid -- only that it was possible that she could have done it.

as i understand it, he interviewed one person who (as a boy) was at the scene and saw whom he thought was the maid, wearing a shawl, and limping.  his theory is she's hiding the ax under her skirts.  that's no more than a guess.  if i had to guess as to why the woman might have been limping, i would say a combination of a) being sick enough to vomit that morning, b) washing windows in the heat of the day, and c) running around from house to house looking for people.  she might well have strained a leg muscle or ligament or whatever.

he points out that she seemed afraid she was going to be arrested and later shows up with a lawyer.  she was living and working in a society where irish immigrants were openly discriminated against.

radin's biggest mistake is his treatment of how the maid discovered mrs. borden's body.  he asserts it is not possible to see a body underneath that bed on the staircase.  this puzzled me for a while because there were others who said they could.  why would this be?  i'm sure someone else has figured this out, though i haven't read it.  the answer is -- it depends upon one's height.  it's a matter of standing upon a particular step or two together with having a particular height.  (IF I'M IN ERROR HERE, SOMEONE CORRECT ME).  i do know for a fact that a body may be observed there between the bed and floor, because i've seen a photograph of that very view.

radin cannot see it anywhere on the staircase in his normal standing position, and assumes that no one else could.  he is suggesting the maid knew the body was there.  she runs into the room and opens the shutters to let in the light.  more likely it was too dark to tell whether she was murdered or had fainted, and was acting out of simple concern.

one thing in his book that still confuses me though, is this:  he makes an outline showing the difference between lizzie and the maid as to what time the maid started/finished? washing dishes.  has anyone worked through this?



52. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-15th-02 at 2:09 AM
In response to Message #51.

My notes say Radin and DeMille were the only authors who had access to the "Hip-bath Collection" in their research phase of writing.
That would be a major COUP at the time they each were developing a theory.
Radin may possibly have seen those 2 photo's of Phillips, that were taken as experiments in the house.
But was Radin IN that house?
(I looked for our Radin last night, and it has "walked")

Anyway, there still might be stuff in the Hip-Bath Collection that as yet we are unaware?

Yes I believe you are correct in that different people did see under the bed in the guest room depending on which step they were on and how tall they were.
Mrs. Brigham (Prelim. 472) tried the experiment herself with Morse, of all people lying in that Spot!  YUCK.
Her main contention, and defender Phillips, was that a body couldn't be seen in that position in that room if one were standing on the landing or in Lizzie's doorway.  Eveyone else can see from a step.

I think the "limping" is an invention of the author...only because we don't see it in evidence/testimony.  But she doesn't need to be limping to be suspicious...she had the ability to come & go freely 4 times that day!

There are major differences in the timelines as to where Lizzie says she was and where Bridget says she was, mainly due to the fact that for some reason Lizzie is Totally unaware (or wants to Seem to be) as to where Bridget is all morning.  She just simply doesn't see her or notices.  (Sounds like her mind is on other things...gee I wonder what other things?)

If you wouldn't mind a suggestion, You might try :
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/ChronologyBridget.htm
& then
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/ChronologyLizzie.htm

These are not "Comparative"--I suppose I should do one of those.  I know Terence always wanted one ...
I didn't use Radin at all in these timelines.

Defence Investigator Phillips photo:



Oh look, there are the shutters!

(Message last edited Nov-15th-02  2:15 AM.)


53. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by haulover on Nov-15th-02 at 8:50 PM
In response to Message #52.

radin makes it a large point of his contention --- that he himself walked through the house and tried to find that spot on the stairs where he could see under a bed.  and he makes much of this to implicate the maid.  i thought it was an odd oversight on his part that he failed to realize that different people standing on the same step would have different eye levels and therefore different views.  he makes the case that lizzie could be innocent, but in my opinion does nothing toward a solution.

interesting your point that some people were simply trying to show that you could not see a body in lizzie's doorway or at the top of the stairwell. 

which is also how the evidence gets confusing.  people have different perspectives on giving an answer to a question or in trying to make a point about something.

anyway, i can't believe the-maid-did-it theory.


54. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Susan on Nov-15th-02 at 9:27 PM
In response to Message #53.

I agree with you, Haulover, I don't think Bridget did it either.  Call it woman's intuition, ESP, whatever, I get the feeling that Bridget was not the murderer.  BUT, I have always felt that Miss Bridget knew more than she told ever!  Do I think she saw Lizzie or the murderer with a dripping hatchet in hand, no.  But, I get the feeling that she knew a bit more which could have helped the police and she held her tongue, part because she liked Lizzie and part because who would want to hire a servant who ran off at the mouth telling family secrets?  Sounds to me like she may have been in a bit of a bind, she wouldn't even admit to hearing the family quarrel though she could hear Lizzie speaking in the next room, slowly or lowly to her father. 


55. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-18th-02 at 3:15 PM
In response to Message #51.

Robert Harry, my favorite quote in the trial is from Lizzie when she asks Mrs. Churchill to come over.  Now I am trying to put it into Bostonianese...."Mrs. Chuurrchell, doo come ovvauh, sumwuun haz come in and killed faaahhthuh." Something like that.

Kat, just because Lizzie or anyone else doesn't tell all they know doesn't mean they lie.  Also, was wondering why you say that Bridget was found "dirty, wet, disheveled and sweating about the time of Abby's murder."  I have never heard of her described that way? Bridget had only gone out to vomit around 9 am and hadn't started her window washing until around 9:30, which is the time the doctors say Abby was killed, so how could she have gotten into such a state so early on in the am before her work, surely it wasn't from preparing and cleaning up after breakfast?

Robert Harry, it's interesting that Bridget's response to the police was she thought they had come to arrest her and Lizzie's response to the police and Mayor Sat. night was that she was quite willing to go with them right then. If Bridget said that and she was guilty it might show guilt but it also might show apprehension, as Haulover suggested, because the police were always looking for an immigrant to attach guilt to.  However, one note I consider is that Bridget became friendly with several of the police officers on the case, or at least spoke with them later and she worked as a domestic for officials of the case so she couldn't have had that much apprehension about them.  Also many of them were Irish like herself.  We also don't know what her tone of voice was when she said that, it could have been one of surprise because the thought of herself being arrested was so out of the question.

I was thinking that about the matter of Bridget running into the guest room to look at Abby. One thought was that she went in because she was in the capacity of being employed by the household and so she felt more responsible than Mrs. Churchill to actually see what it was in that room on the floor, that heap or form that was seen by Mrs. Churchill from the stairs.

Also it is interesting to note that I don't believe (I haven't checked Bridget's trial testimony as of this post) that either woman reported that Abby was actually dead then, I don't think Bridget checked Abby's head wounds, etc. is what I mean.  She saw the body standing over it from the foot of the bed. 

Mrs. Churchill says in her inquest testimony: "I think Bridget went ahead of me.  I got half way up the front stairs, I got just far enough so my head was level with the front entry floor, I turned my head to the left and in turning my head to the left, I could see straight across the spare bed room floor, and at the north side of the bed I saw something that looked like a prostrate form of something.  I could distinguish nothing, the room was not light, it was a little darker, darker than down stairs.  It looked more than any mat would be on the floor. I turned around and went back. I don't know whether I said out loud "that must be her."  I think Bridget went up stairs, how far she went, I don't know, because I was so shocked.  I went down stairs, went into the dining room, and Alice Russell says, "is there another,"  "Yes, she is up there." When Dr. Bowen came in again I says "Dr. Bowen, you must go up stairs in the spare bed room"  And he went.

Therefore, the point is when the ladies came downstairs they didn't exactly report another DEAD body (unless Bridget says this in her trial testimony...Kat probablyl knows). And this leads me to believe that Dr. Bowen, when he first reported to the police he considered Abby having fainted with fright, it might have been his first response in his own mind on his way upstairs, not knowing at that point that she was actually dead.  He later revised his opinion when he actually felt her head and observed her up close.

But yet after all the considering Bridget might have been involved in some fashion just like Lizzie might have known who did it even if she didn't do it herself. 


56. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-19th-02 at 2:50 AM
In response to Message #55.

My quote was:
"if Lizzie didn't tell all she knew, then in some instances she was lying."
Lizzie would be lying if she knew she had met with Morse, but swears she hadn't seen him those last few months.  Not telling ALL she knew, and knowing this one thing (for example), she would be lying.
I never maintained that not telling all she knew was Lying.

Post #45--about Bridget:
"...and she vomitted also, about the time of Abby's murder!  This has always seemed SO suspicious to me!"
I had been commenting on Muriel Arnold's book & theory, The Hands of Time, previous to this statement.
She used her imagination, and so did I.
I imagined Bridget sweating, and damp from exertion and from supposedly throwing dippers of water UP onto 6' high windows.  Seems Bridget would get wet, doesn't it?

Bridget goes out to vomit about 9 A.M. missing Andrew's departure.  She says she is outside for 10 minutes or thereabouts--Abby was probably killed about 9:05 a.m. within that time frame.  If Bridget killed Abby, which is what we were contemplating (re: Radin) and it was the first human she had ever killed, her vomiting made a Lot of sense to me.
Bridget would be disheveled and damp--she says she changed her dress--after 10:40, and upon the completion of the window's--if that is what she really was doing.


57. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-19th-02 at 12:56 PM
In response to Message #51.

If the door was closed, as it normally would be, no one could see anything.


58. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-19th-02 at 12:59 PM
In response to Message #56.

Anyone washing those windows on a HOT August day would be sweating; and wet from splashed rinse water. Certainly tired after an hour of this; she went up to rest on her bed. So what else is new?


59. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-19th-02 at 1:03 PM
In response to Message #53.

The importance of Edward Radin's book is that it reopened the case. Didn't he also write a book on innocent people who were convicted of murder? (Neither book is available in my county library system.)
I think his pointing to Bridget, however valid in his mind, is one way to sell his book. Like the recent solution of Jack the Ripper.

Remember, Lizzie said "it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father", proof that she didn't want to blame the innocent! A sign or her moral worth. (If she was guilty, she could have said "I know nothing" and let a poor servant or worker be suspicioned.)


60. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-19th-02 at 2:13 PM
In response to Message #56.

If Lizzie had met with Morse but said she hadn't seen him, yes, that is a lie. But if Lizzie had met with Morse but just never said anything about it, that's not a lie, it's just withholding information.

Yes, Bridget would show bodily exertion from washing the windows including being damp or wet but only after she did the windows, not before, and I thought you were refering to her being in that condition when Abby was thought be have been killed, which was before the window work, sorry.

Then you think that Bridget killed Abby about 9:05 am and vomited out in the yard at 9:00 because of her reaction to having done it? That would mean she reacted to having done the crime before she did it. But Lizzie came downstairs around 9:00 am. If Bridget killed Abby before Lizzie came down then Abby was killed before 9:00 and that is really odd. Perhaps I am not following your train of thought.

I don't have a problem with Bridget vomiting around 9:00 because three other members of the household were sick that week to the point of vomiting during the night, or at least being very sick at night so that a visit to Dr. Bowen was in order. So there is evidence for a legitimate reason for vomiting. 


61. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Robert Harry on Nov-19th-02 at 3:18 PM
In response to Message #55.

That's a pretty darn good phoneticization, Carol. Wouldn't it be fun to have a field trip to Fall River and get local folks to speak these lines into a recorder?  By the way, I remember that Biography video about Lizzie, and there is one older lady (being interviewed) on that tape who has the accent to a "T"--unfortunately, the voice of Lizzie on that tape does not have the proper accent.  I still think this line of Lizzie's sounds too "pueuhhhfectly scripted" --why suppose a murder scenario instead of just screaming "AHHHHHHHHHHHHH"


62. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-20th-02 at 12:03 AM
In response to Message #56.

My Timeline, based on the Preliminary Hearing, Aug. 25- Sept.1, 1892:
BRIDGET-
8:45- 9:00 a.m. -- Mr. Borden went back upstairs. Came down with his collar and tie and went into the sitting room. (pg. 9).

Lizzie came down to kitchen. (pg. 11).

Bridget went outside to vomit, "10 to 15 minutes". (pg. 11).

Did not see Lizzie when she came back in from outside. (pg. 11).

9 a.m. -- Bridget saw Mrs. Borden in the dining room dusting. (pg. 10).

Mr. Borden "was gone then". (pg. 10).

Bridget did not see Mrs. Borden after that. (pg. 10).

9- 9:30 a.m. -- Bridget cleaned her kitchen. (pg. 13).

Shut 1 sitting room window and 2 dining room windows in preparation of washing windows. (pg. 15).

Did not see Lizzie. (pg. 15).

Did not go in the parlor at all. (pg. 15).

9:30 a.m. -- Bridget started to get her implements together to wash windows outside. (pg. 13).

Lizzie appeared at back screen door to inquire if Bridget was about to wash windows, while Bridget was just outside. (pg. 12).
--------------------
MORSE at Prelim:
8:30 a.m.

"About 15 or 20 minutes before I left the house" was when Morse saw Mrs. Borden go into the front hall. . . "Somewhere in the neighborhood of half past eight." (pg. 243).

"I think Mrs. Borden must be up then ["up" meaning upstairs]; she went into the front hall the last I saw of her at all." (pg. 241).

8:45 a.m.

Morse went away, "I think about quarter to nine." (pg. 241).

Morse "did not hear her (Lizzie) come down." (p. 241).
-------------------------

--We are relying on our suspects here in their timing of events.  That is why I don't see as we can argue the finer points of minutes of the clock, as to when Bridget vomited etc.  We don't even know if she knows how to read a clock.
Morse has Abby dusting around downstairs and disappearing into the front hall at 8:30.  He says he never saw her alive after that.
Supposedly Lizzie was downstairs in the kitchen at the table when Bridget went outside to vomit, which seems to take an excessively Long time...10 to 15 minutes!  Andrew left, apparently during this time also.
Morse had left Before Bridget vomited.
But when Lizzie's timeline of events is entered into the equation, we find that she thinks Bridget was getting ready to wash the windows (actually collecting her implements) when Lizzie came down stairs almost first thing that morning.


INQUEST
Lizzie
Pg. 65+
Q. Had the breakfast all been cleared away when you got down?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I want you to tell me just where you found the people when you got down that you did find there?
66
A. I found Mrs. Borden in the dining room. I found my father in the sitting room.
Q. And Maggie?
A. Maggie was coming in the back door with her pail and brush.
Q. Tell me what talk you had with your mother at that time?
A. She asked me how I felt. I said I felt better than I did Tuesday, but I did not want any breakfast. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her nothing. I told her I did not want anything. She said she was going out, and would get the dinner. That is the last I saw her, or said anything to her.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Into the kitchen.
Q. Where then?
A. Down cellar.
Q. Gone perhaps five minutes?
A. Perhaps. Not more than that; possibly a little bit more.
Q. When you came back did you see your mother?
A. I did not; I supposed she had gone out.
Q. She did not tell you where she was going?
A. No sir.
Q. When you came back was your father there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What was he doing?
A. Reading the paper.
---------------------
(pg.80)

Questioning by Knowlton:

Q: "Miss Borden, I want you now to tell me all the talk you had with your mother, when you came down, and all the talk she had with you. Please begin again."

A: "She asked me how I felt. I told her. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her not anything, what kind of meat I wanted for dinner. I told her not any. She said she had been up and made the spare bed, and was going to take up some linen pillow cases for the small pillows at the foot, and then the room was done. She says: "I have had a note from somebody that is sick, and I am going out, and I will get the dinner at the same time." I think she said something about the weather, I don't know. She also asked me if I would direct some wrappers for her, which I did."

--This last supposedly all takes place in the dining room.
Bridget last see's Abby there.
Lizzie last see's Abby there.
Morse says Abby was dusting around downstairs up until 8:30.
And last see's Abby as she goes into the front hall.
It seems as if Abby would dust, and finish dusting, before fixing the bedroom.  Just speculation...but wouldn't a person finish a dusting job, before starting the guest room job?  Washing hands, shaking out the thing used to dust, shaking out skirts, before handling clean linen, like pillow shams?
So the  guest room is ready, we are told, by Lizzie, at 9 A.M.
Since Abby's body was found there, it's a safe assumption that she went back up there around 9 and never left the room again.
Meanwhile she is not seen, nor noticed missing until Andrew comes home and supposedly wonders where Abby is.

From 8:45 until some few minutes after 9 all these things happen and no one agree's as to WHEN.  So I am not necessarilly trying to pinpoint Bridget's vomiting, and it's not reasonable to assume I meant Bridget vomitted before she killed Abby...and it's not reasonable to assume I think that Bridget DID kill Abby.  When I speculate, as all the author's do, I have to leave some leeway in the timing of activities, just as they are allowed leeway.  After all, some of this timing is based on  the testimony of an accused, arrested and charged "probably guilty" Person who actually was imprisoned for 10 months because she was not found believable by a police force, a prosecutor for the state, and a judge.  The rest is based on Bridget & Morse, who definetly ARE suspects, even if mostly in the public's opinion.   I am "the public" too.


63. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-20th-02 at 4:26 PM
In response to Message #60.

I'm not giving anything away by saying the first time you kill somebody you may be revolted enought to throw up. Afterwards, it becomes easier. Or so I read in a book. This can also happen when you come across your first ripe body (the opening scene of Quincy).
Radin, an experienced reporter who covered 100s of murder trials as a reporter, did not make this up!

Yes, you can throw up for other reasons. "Summer Flu" was a very real disease a century ago (spoiled food, etc.).
I also read that some hunters will dirty themselves the first time they come up to the deer they just shot. Or first battle in wartime.

Aren't both life and death messy at times?

(Message last edited Nov-20th-02  4:28 PM.)


64. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-20th-02 at 4:30 PM
In response to Message #62.

One problem with any time-line ("TimeLine is a product?) is that nobody was sitting around with a stopwatch and recording events. Then or now, time was approximate. David Kent has a good example in "40 Whacks", but it only covers the time of Andy's murder.

[The 'best evidence' is the recorded (?) statements of everyone just right after the crime, before they could get together and compare statemtents. That's why the police always get people alone to speak, so any one else can't modify their statements.]

(Message last edited Nov-20th-02  4:32 PM.)


65. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-23rd-02 at 2:41 PM
In response to Message #62.

The only testimony we have that Bridget went out into the back and vomited is her own, just like the only testimony as to the note came just from Lizzie. No one else saw Bridget outside then.

If Bridget did (I don't really believe it) kill Abby perhaps she said she was out in back vomiting to place her outside the house at the time Abby was killed. She only said that after she knew Abby was killed.  She might very well have made up the vomiting situation because she knew that the family members had all been sick and it was a good cover for her.

So regardless of the timeline, i.e., trying to figure out the exact time Abby was killed, it's interesting to consider that Lizzie might not be the only one fabricating alternatives to the facts even if the police only thought Lizzie was.  If they had chosen Bridget as the suspect, they would have torn apart her vomiting alibi. 

Also if Bridget went upstairs to kill Abby around about at the 9:00 o'clock range (+ -)then she very well was up there before Lizzie came downstairs for the first time. If Bridget killed Abby during that time most likely everything she said after that was a cover up, yet most people rely on her information as factual, she gave the most testimony, etc. 

Since no one knows who really did the killings, all are still suspects, it is only Lizzie that couldn't be tried again....in court. 


66. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-24th-02 at 1:14 AM
In response to Message #65.

And I think someone said that if Bridget did do it, then Lizzie probably knew...and if Lizzie did it then Bridget probably knew.

That was funny how you put it...the *vomiting alibi*.  That made me chuckle...


67. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-25th-02 at 3:42 PM
In response to Message #61.

Thanks Robert Harry. I have the biography video, do you remember which lady you mean who has the proper accent?  If that line hadn't come out of the evidence I would think it scripted too, it does sound like a line from a movie but it also sounds a little formal, which I suppose was the common daily word usage even neighbor women used with one another.  And I always wonder about Lizzie's tone of voice when she said it as well, that would make a lot of difference.

Would love to take a field trip to Spindle City and when I inherit lots of money (like the woman in the book "The Lady Who Liked Clean Bathrooms)I will also stay overnight at the Borden house. Maybe I could dress up in old time clothes, such as a blue and white ground with a dark spot on it, and visit the local drug stores asking for l0 cents worth of prussic acid. Maybe someone has already done that.


68. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Robert Harry on Nov-25th-02 at 6:48 PM
In response to Message #67.

Hi, Carol.  The lady on the Biography video has gray hair and glasses.  I think she speaks about either actually having met Lizzie as a young girl or about knowing someone who did know Lizzie in her French Street days.  If I am not mistaken, she appears several times on the video.  I have moved so often I lost my copy and haven't seen it for a while, but I do remeber this lady and her accent!  BTW, I spent a summer in Fall River (1977) before I was into Lizzie and, by golly, I was subject to the "summer illness" myself.  Come to think of it, it was in July-August, and I had bouts of extreme nausea with diarrhea.  In fact, I got help from a nun who was a nurse at St. Anne's Hospital, but boy was I sick. 


69. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-25th-02 at 8:03 PM
In response to Message #68.

They're coming off the cruise ships here in droves with "Norwalk Virus"...summer complaint.
I've heard and read that a major medical theory now is that once a person gets one of those terrible stomach *virus' *, their chances are increased that later in life they will develope arthritis, and it may be 20 years down the road!
So good luck!

I believe the woman of which you all speak, is either MURIEL ARNOLD, or Florence Brigham.
RobertHarry, would you have recognized Flo Brigham if you'd seen her then?


70. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-26th-02 at 4:03 PM
In response to Message #68.

Either Fall River has an unsafe water supply (what does it taste like?), or from something else. Modern refrigeration etc. has pretty much done away with "summer flu", unless you eat something strange, or maybe not.


71. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by rays on Nov-26th-02 at 4:07 PM
In response to Message #65.

That 1960s book (read in 1965) solved the crime by saying Lizzie did Abby, and Bridget did Andy. Like "Strangers On a Train"? But the same lack of evidence for Lizzie's guilt also applies to Bridget!

I don't remember the book quoting Lizzie "it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father".

This is why AR Brown presented the Optimal Solution. A cynic might say blaming it on a "madman" is the last resort (Jack the Ripper?) when no one else is left.

[Perhaps there was undocumented evidence, like the detritus left, or notice by a neighbor. There is no reason to document facts that aren't needed for a conviction, then or now.]

(Message last edited Nov-26th-02  4:08 PM.)


72. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-27th-02 at 2:41 AM
In response to Message #71.

I'm not sure that the same lack of evidence for Lizzie's guilt, as you put it it, also applies to Bridget.
They are 2 different people with different backgrounds and motives, different physical abilities, different heigths ,clothing   and education, access to weapons and different alibi stories.
Also one left the premises 4x that day, the other not once that we know of, therefore: 
I would say that they would each have to be looked at Separately.

I do agree with your suggestion that there was undocumented detritus...we Know, for example, that there was blood on the doctors and maybe even others, being tracked about the house, on their shoes (Witness Statements)


73. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Carol on Nov-27th-02 at 4:51 PM
In response to Message #68.

Maybe that summer health problem has something to do with the air currents bringing something in from the sea into the atmosphere there in July and August, or something a crew member on a ship got and spread in the port city.

If Andrew was going about to the banks every day he was in regular contact with lots of people, he could have brought a bug back to the house. Once they got sick the old food and heat of the day might have made things even worse.  Hope you don't get sick on your next visit, Robert Harry.

It was Helen Pierce on the Biography video who had the glasses and knew Lizzie when Lizzie was an older woman in Fall River.  They have listed Helen Pierce as a historian on the film.  Nice lady, very keen insights and much fairer in her comments than some others on that film. She didn't sound Kennedy Bostonian but she did pronounce mother as "muth-thuh," wish she would have talked more.


74. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-28th-02 at 12:30 AM
In response to Message #73.

Good One, Carol!
I wanted the answer, too.
Here, RobertHarry is a link to our questioning as to who she is and why people want to interview her...

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=1&fid=27&taid=9&topid=836


75. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Robert Harry on Nov-28th-02 at 12:26 PM
In response to Message #74.

Thanks for the link to Helen Pierce.  In one of them, Helen says that her grandmother invited Lizzie over for Thanksgiving dinner and that she accepted.  What a perfect day to read such information.  I thought that I would give Lizzie a rest on Thanksgiving Day, but I couldn't resist a peek at the Forum!! I would love to have Lizzie over.  I'm sure she would be a great conversationalist.  She was an avid reader and kept her finger on the pulse of cultural events of her day, going to New York and Boston and DC and even abroad, and she loved the theatre.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING, KAT, AND TO ALL THE NEW FRIENDS I'VE FOUND THROUGH LIZZIE BORDEN!!


76. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Susan on Nov-28th-02 at 3:47 PM
In response to Message #74.

Wow, thanks Kat, I missed out on that one!  How cool!  Thanksgiving with Lizzie, do you suppose that she will want to chop, er...., carve the bird?  Happy Thanksgiving to you, Robert Harry, and all the rest of the Forum Family! 


77. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by Kat on Nov-29th-02 at 1:19 AM
In response to Message #75.

WOW, Thank you all!
That's really nice of you.
And Thanks to Harry and to Jeffery .
I love it when Threads come full circle!
"What's Left Of Lizzie's World?" has come back to Thanksgiving with Lizzie and our Borden Family!


78. "Re: What's left of Lizzie's world?"
Posted by kimberly on Nov-29th-02 at 1:01 PM
In response to Message #77.

I'm kind of late on the Happy Thanksgivings, so I'll just
add my Happy Holidays.



 

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