1. "Lucy Collett"
Posted by augusta on May-28th-02 at 11:56 AM

There is a sketch of Lucy Collett in Hoffman's "Yesterday in Old Fall River".  I don't recall seeing it before and find it interesting.  He says that she married the doctor's clerk (he was the one to ask her if she'd go over and answer calls for the absent doctor on the murder morning).  Strangely, it does not mention her early death. 

Early death?  I don't think that I ever heard of that.  What did she die from and when, Augusta? 

Lucie lived from 1874-1900,*  making her 26 (possibly 25) when she died.  So she was 18 at the time of the Borden murders.  I pictured her as being younger, like 11 or so for some reason.  Maybe it's the cute name. (I think I read it in a Lizzie book years ago.)  The clerk she married, who was Dr. Chagnon's clerk, was named Jean Napoleon Normand, so her married name was Lucie Normand.  They married in 1896, when she was 22.  Her death certificate must be on file in Fall River, since she was still living there when she died.  I can't find a source stating her cause of death, and I would really like to know.  I think her testimony was important.  Without it, there would have been another suspect.

*from The Knowlton Papers, pg. 421.

One of the minor characters died from jumping out of a window, but I can't remember who it was.  Harry probably remembers. Wasn't it the window of a convent? 

The person who died from injuries suffered in a jump from a convent window was Mme. Chagnon, the Bordens' neighbor, who testified about hearing strange noises on the evening of August 3, 1892.  Her lovely young stepdaughter caused quite a sensation at the trial.  Someone referred to Mlle. Chagnon as a "very well-looking young lady."

My goodness!  There are so many little bits of the history of this trial that I was unaware of!!!  Why did Mme. Chagnon jump out the window of a convent?  Was it suicide, was she crazy?

I had the same impression too, Augusta, that Lucy Collett was a young girl of like 12 or so.  I wonder if she died in childbirth as was so common at the time?  

Thanks, Edisto. Mrs. Chagnon's window jump happened in Quebec.  The year was 1895, just three years after the Borden murders.  She was Dr. Chagnon's second wife.  He was married for the first time in 1861 and had 13 children.  Then in 1885 he married the Mrs. Chagnon we are familiar with.  She was previously married also.  Her name was Mrs. Marie-Anne (maiden name Gigault) Paneuf.  She came from Maine.  The doctor married for a third time in 1898 to a single lady and he had seven children with her.  He seems to be quite a well-known doctor in his day.  He died in Fall River in 1912 at the age of 75.  (Thanks to Edisto's post I was able to look this up in The Knowlton Papers, page 417 under Dr. Chagnon's listing.)

It would be great to know the circumstances of both hers and Lucie Collett's death.  There is a lot of history & intrigue inside the Borden case, Susan.  Lots of little mystery sub-plots.

When reading The Knowlton Papers last year, I found that one of Lizzie's female relatives (a distant one I think) married one of the prosecution side's sons or grandsons.  Was it a Borden/Hilliard wedding? 

Fascinating post Augusta! I had not known any of that about Mrs. Chagnon.

You mentioned a drawing of Lucy Collett in a prior post. Is there any way you could scan that and post it here with proper credit to the source?

There is a very small drawing of her in Rebello, page 219, under "Interesting Incidents in the Borden Trial".

Thanks for all the info, Augusta!  Wow, so much to read about!  I don't have the Knowlton papers and it sounds like I should!!! 

I do recommend The Knowlton Papers, Susan, if you can find a copy.  It's out of print and in demand.  The FRHS has been saying they're going to reprint a paperback edition for a long time but nothing yet.  I got lucky and someone on the board e-mailed me.  He was selling a copy at Half.com and I got it for half price.  What a break!  Harry is going to teach me how to post a picture on here.  So I hope to be posting the picture of Lucie soon.  (It's a sketch.  Different from the one in Rebello and is found in Hoffman's book.)

I too would like to learn how to post pictures on the site, if Harry has the time and the patience! 

No problem Susan.  Let me work with Augusta first. It's very easy (like everything once you know how) and you'll pick it up quick.

You may want to send me your e-mail address as it's too difficult to do over the message board.

Thanks, Harry!  You've got mail! 

This photo of Lucie Collett comes from "Yesterday in Old Fall River" by Paul Dennis Hoffman, page 82.  It originally came from New Bedford Evening Standard, August 30, 1892.

(Many thanks to Harry Widdows for teaching me how to post this.)

My goodness, she looks so severe.

Your very welcome Augusta.  Great drawing. She does look a little stern but it's probably the glasses.

We definitely have to find out what caused her death at so young an age.

Speaking of young, Mayor Coughlin (who was also a doctor) was only 31 years old, 1 year younger than Lizzie, at the time of the murders.

Have we all noticed the great number of doctors involved somehow in this case? 



(Message last edited May-31st-02  11:46 PM.)

Wow, Agusta!
You had to SCAN   AND   ATTACH  !!!

I'm impressed.

I think Lucie looks a little like me, when I was her age....



(Message last edited Jun-1st-02  3:51 AM.)

Yes, I've often thought about all those doctors.  There were what, three?, living right around the Bordens'.  Bowen, Chagnon and someone else.  There were I think seven doctors that looked at the bodies that morning.  I think Dr. Dolan just happened to be driving by at the time.  With all their education, it's something how they messed with the evidence so.  Just traipsing into the house alone could have obliterated things, let alone moving the bodies and sticking their hands in the wounds.

Hey, since there were so many doctors and reporters walking thru the Borden house right after the murders, wouldn't some of them have gotten blood on their shoes?  And wouldn't that have gotten confused with any blood on the floor that was there from the killer?  Or was the carpeting so dark and patterned that they couldn't be seen?  We never hear of any of the blood on the floor, except the puddle oozing out of Andrew.

I think it's more proof of Andrew's lack of discrimination to ethnic groups that he lived next door to an Irish doctor, Kelly, and behind a French Canadian (Chagnon).

For the possibility of blood transfer from Dr.'s to envoirnment, please see:
Topic   LizzieAndrewBorden
             Page 2
             Last Thread on page: THE TRAIL OF BLOOD, by Harry

That's true, Kat.  I wonder how well he got along with them.  Was he friends with them or did he just tolerate them? 

Thanks for the tip on the thread about blood transfer.

Not to be argumentative, but do we know that Andrew had a choice in the matter of his neighbors?  For sure, Dr. Kelly had moved into his cottage long after the Bordens occupied their house, because we know that Alice Russell and her mother had lived there previously.  According to Hoffman, the Kellys were married in 1891.  Mrs. Kelly was a year younger than Lizzie.  In 1893, at the time she testified at Lizzie's trial, Mrs. Kelly was a new mother.  The Chagnons were married in 1885, so they would have moved to Third Street after the Bordens were already ensconced on Second. (There goes the neighborhood!)  Short of buying up all the vacant houses around him, Andew probably couldn't have chosen who lived next door and behind him.
It's always seemed to me that the Bordens were friendlier with the Bowens and Millers and with the Churchill/Buffinton clan than with their more "ethnic" neighbors.  It's interesting to realize that Mrs. Churchill, whom I always think of as a very mature widow lady, was about the same age as Emma.  Of course, Emma was pretty mature too, I guess.

When Bridget returned from her failed trip to get Dr. Bowen, Lizzie didn't send her to Dr. Kelly's or Dr. Chagnon's, both about the same distance as Dr. Bowen's. We know Dr. Chagnon wasn't in but Lizzie wouldn't know that.

Instead she sends her to Alice Russell's. Hardly a doctor.

This sudden interest by Lizzie in Alice Russell stands out too. Her previous night's dramatic visit and now this request for Bridget to go and get her. Was Alice that close a friend and what did Lizzie expect her to do?

AR Brown simply (and correctly) explains this that Dr Bowen was their Dr, the others were for other ethnic groups. Agree?

Just because somebody happened to live next to an Irish or French Doctor doesn't mean they would be close friends? Obviously classier than the mill hands, but NOT "on the hill".

I tend to agree with you, Edisto, and the rest of Y'all.

The Borden's did have Bowen for their doctor, and Lizzie did not send for an ethnic physician.
I suppose the neighbors were tolerarted.
Mrs. Kelly says they waved at each other, but we know Andrew seemed to ignore her on the murder morning, by keeping his head down.
Just think!  If he had stopped to say hello, even tho Caroline was late for her appt., maybe things might have turned out differently.  It has been said that she is the last person to have seen him Alive, whereupon her daughter adds, years later, "except for the murderer" (as her mother's constant rejoiner.)

I WAS picturing how close the Bordens lived (voluntarily) to the Catholic Church, which must have teemed with Irish and/or Italian workers on days of Services.  Also, there was a rectory filled with priests just down Second street, mostly Irish.

If Andrew was annoyed in any way by any of this, we sure don't know about it.

A thought entered my head about this, do you think that maybe the Bordens were friendly with the people who have lived in the neighborhood the longest?  I mean, think in the terms of the neighborhoods that all of you live in, are you VERY friendly with EVERYONE that lives there?  Have them all over for barbecues or just in for coffee?  Or are there just a certain few? 

I was thinking that if the Kellys were a younger couple would they really want to hang out with old Andrew and Abby?  Were the Kellys friendly with Lizzie and Emma, being closer to their ages?

Speaking for myself, I DO say hello to ALL my neighbors, but, am friendly with a few and they have lived here as long as I have.

Just a thought. 

I think Abby sums it up when she said of the Bowens, "They are all the neighbors we've got."  It sounds like they, and possibly the Millers, were the only neighbors the elder Bordens were friends with.
I can't see Lizzie & Emma having the same friend as the old folks.  Not so much because of ages, but the "girls" disliked Abby so, how could a friend listen to that, then be a friend to the parents?  If I were the friend, I'd feel very torn - possibly I'd believe the "girls" and dislike them altogether.  Abby never said anything bad about the girls to others.  Perhaps she sensed people knowing bad things about her and Andrew that were or were not true and avoided them.

Do we ever get to pick our neighbors?  Not often.  I think Andrew went for location and economy.

Edisto, that was Dr. Chagnon's second wife I believe, so he might have lived there longer than that.

YES - why did Lizzie go to Alice Russell?????  I can't imagine.  Why not another doctor under those circumstances?  (Actually why a doctor in the first place, when she knew he was dead?)  Why didn't she call the cops?  And wasn't Alice more a friend of Emma's anyway?  Or am I wrong on that?


(Message last edited Jun-4th-02  7:03 PM.)

It sounds like Abby used the term neighbors to refer to people who are friendly and helpful in the area.  Where did the Millers live in relation to the Borden house?

I find it strange too, Augusta, that Lizzie wanted Alice Russell to be at the house with her, as she couldn't be alone in the house.  Alice sounds like she was scared of her own shadow!  Why not a policeman?

I heard 2 schools of thought on Lizzie asking for Dr. Bowen, the one that says she either needed him to attend to Andrew's wounds or to sign his death certificate.  Or that Lizzie needed the doctor for herself as she was all out of sorts over her father's death.

Do you think that it is possible that Lizzie not having a male leader anymore wanted the closest one to the family possible?  Especially since Uncle John was not back yet and Lizzie wasn't around to hear the come back to dinner conversation. 

Even when something measley happens like my phone goes out, I start knocking on the nearest neighbors doors.  I certainly don't pick and choose who will help me...I take what help I can get!
In a bloody murder situation, there is NO earthly reason why I would remain standing inside the back door, and sending my only live companion (that I know of) OUT and ABOUT the neighborhood, leaving me alone.  No way!
"Oh, pshaw!  Dr. "A" is not at home?  Then run 3 blocks to Miss "B", please...I'll just wait here..."

Andrew Borden purchased the Second Street house in April of 1872.  Dr. Chagnon didn't immigrate from Canada until 1879, so it's unlikely he was living in the house at 91 Third Street when the Bordens moved into the neighborhood.  Yes, Marienne was his second wife and a woman with a lot of guts.  Dr. Chagnon had THIRTEEN children with his first wife!  That may go a long way toward explaining why Marienne jumped out of the convent window.
BYW, I'm currently reading Muriel Arnold's "Hands of Time."  She apparently used newspapers as her main source of information, which may or may not be the best idea.  In her book, she reports that Lizzie dispatched Mrs. Churchill to get Dr. Chagnon after it was learned that Dr. Bowen wasn't home.  Apparently she never got to Dr. Chagnon's house, because she stopped to alert Thomas Boulds and others, and Dr. Bowen returned in the interim.

Southard Miller was Dr. Bowen's father-in-law and lived in the other half of the same house as the Bowens.  In other words, he lived diagonally across the street from the Bordens.  With him lived his wife, Esther, and his son, Frank, an artist.  Mr. Miller was 81 years old at the time of the murders.  He stated that he wanted nothing to do with that unsavory business and didn't go near the Borden house during that period. (Hoffman's book can be really useful at times like this!)

Didn't AR Brown write that Dr Bowen was a trusted family friend, beside being their Doctor? Could Andy's anger be a symptom of arteriosclerosis? Do you know of any old cranky people who live like they did in during the Depression? I used to, when I was very young.

Thanks for the very interesting info, Edisto!  That is something I have never heard refered to ever.  Do you think maybe he knew more of what was going on in the Borden house and didn't want to talk about it or testify at the trial? 

Supposedly, Andrew Borden and Southard Miller went 'way back.  It's certainly possible he knew more than he was telling about doings at the Borden house.  It's also possible he simply had the "I don't want to get involved" syndrome.  He apparently wasn't above talking to the occasional newspaperman, however.

I can't seem to shake a recollection that Southard Miller was hanging around outside the murder house a bit later that day.  I thought one of the minor players mentioned him.
I been lookin'.

Wasn't half the population of Fall River at the Borden house that day?  I can't imagine anyone in the area not being enticed to go over and see what all the hubbub was about?  After all, Southard Miller was only human, I can't imagine him knowing the Bordens for as long as he did and not wanting to go see what was going on that day.  And after satisfying his curiousity, may have left in a hurry so as not to be "involved". 

Kat, you're right about Southard Miller being out there and refusing to go over to the Bordens.  (Either out there or inside, but he would not go over there.)  I don't remember the source, but I remember reading it -it was interesting.

Thanks for the immigration date of Dr. Chagnon, Edisto.  So the Chagnons were not there when the Bordens moved in in '72.  Okay.  That gives us a little clearer idea of the neighborhood.

Susan, you are so right.  Alice Russell was a nervous person - at least during the time of the murders - and scared.  She would not have been a pillar of strength to Lizzie.  I can only think of "witnesses".  Lizzie was looking for witnesses.  I think she chose Alice because of their talk the night before.  I think she expected Alice to yell out to everybody, "Hey, Lizzie didn't do this!  Some business guy did it!  Someone's been harassing the Bordens for a long time!"  That would be supportive to Lizzie, in that way.  Maybe she craved Dr. Bowen's emotional support.  Maybe she thought he'd say, "Oh no.  This child would never have done this."  Maybe he had been gallant to her in the past, and she wanted someone to take up for her.  He did direct her to her room after Abby was found, sort of took charge and told her to GO. 

Southard Miller was a carpenter (firm of "Ford & Miller").  He built the house at 92 Second Street for a man named Charles Trafton, which Andrew purchased in 1872.  Mr. Miller ran for mayor of Fall River unsuccessfully in 1868, but he was a member of the Legislature in 1875.  Two of our "friends" witnessed Southard Miller's will in January of 1892:  Andrew Borden and Andrew Jennings.  (From L. Rebello's book, page 24.)

I always had a question about Mr. Miller, and this is a good time to ask:

In the Trial, pg. 295,  Bridget says she stayed overnight Thursday at Miller's with the servant girl, and then she returned to that murder house Friday, "stayed there all through the time and did the work and Friday night I went out and came back and slept in the house.  ...and Saturday night I left for good as I thought, and came back Monday and Mr. Miller said I should not leave the house until he came and took me out"

What does this mean?
What did Miller have to do with when Bridget left?  She sounds like somebody's property or something, that she can't leave without Miller telling her she can?
Does this seem like HE knew "Somebody in the house was suspected?"  Now that we find out from Augusta/Rebello that Miller had run for mayor, etc.?  Is he "in the know"?  Or has been given orders?

(Message last edited Jun-8th-02  4:22 AM.)

A little more on Bridget/Miller. From the Witness Statements:

Page 9, Doherty/Harrington:

"We were on guard at the house from 1 A.M. until 9 A.M. Friday. At one o'clock the house was all in darkness, and so remained all night. There was no noise until about 6.20 A.M. About 6.30 A.M. Mr. John Morse came to the side door, said "good morning", and spoke about the weather. At 8.30 he came out, and going over to S. H. Miller's, he called Bridget, who stayed there that night."

From page 44:  "Alexander B. Coggeshall, a stable keeper on Second street, left his stable at 11.10 to go to dinner. He stopped to talk with Mrs Buffington, and she told him that there had been trouble in the next house. Just then Bridget Sullivan came out of the house on the run, and went over to Southard H. Miller's house, and went in. Soon after Mr. Miller came to the door, and called him over, and said "Here Alex, I want you to listen to what this girl says," Bridget then told them that Mr. Borden and his wife had both been murdered."

This visit by Bridget could not have occurred at 11:10 as Abby's body had not been discovered yet. Coggeshall may be remembering incorrectly and is just putting the two murders together in his statement.

Miller is also mentioned several times as being in the yard the morning of the murders in the Preliminary hearing.

See pages 439, 441 and 471.



(Message last edited Jun-8th-02  9:12 AM.)

Obviously Bridget was afraid to spend any more time in the murder house. She may have had a good reason, if she knew too much.
Going to a safe house may also reflect prejudice against the servant, common then as now. Remember what happened to Uncle John?

I think Southard Miller was just trying to protect Bridget from something like what Morse went thru when he went to the post office.
I think Bridget was friends with the servant girl (Mary?) as well. 

(Message last edited Jun-8th-02  1:21 PM.)

It sounds plausible to me.  Given the dislike and distrust of the Irish in that time period and community.  Southard Miller may have just been very gallant and was looking out for Bridget so that she wouldn't have to deal with any unpleasantness on the street alone.  I mean, can you imagine, murder has been committed, she and Lizzie were known to be alone in the house, who do you think that the townspeople are going to suspect?  People may have been on the lookout for her, wanting to have their say or question her, or just to spit on her.  It must have been a very frightening time for her! 

This all sounds plausible.
I suppose, in That Neighborhood, she might be recognized. But Morse was barely recognized until people noticed people following him, which started out as police and reporter.
Bridget was not very well known either.
When the testimonies started she walked the streets to get there and no one really noticed.

The fact that Miller had been into politics, and WAS well-known and respected in the community made me wonder if he had, in some way, been given (or overheard) advance knowledge as to suspicions of the household inmates and was acting under some type of orders (maybe just to keep a "friendly eye" on things across the street?)

That is entirely possible, Kat.  Southard Miller is a new character thrown into the mix for me!  What I know of him is what is posted of him on this board, I've can only recall reading a blip about him in some past book and nothing much was given about him.  So, any and all info you can post on the man and his family is much needed information for me! 

The rest of the story, according to the Fall River newspapers:

"LEAPED TO DEATH
FATAL INJURIES TO MRS. J.B. CHAGNON AT ST. HYACINTHE
BUILDING HAD CAUGHT FIRE
TWO LADS BURNED TO DEATH AND NUNS SEVERELY HURT.

May 16, 1898

A St. Hyacinthe, Que., dispatch says:
A disastrous fire occurred here early this morning, when theMetairie St. Joseph was burned, causing the loss of seven lives, and the injury of a number of inmates, of whom there were about 200 in the institution, by jumping from windows.  There are also five persons unaccounted for.  The cause of the fire is unknown.  The dead are:  Two boys named Beauchemin;  Sisters Alexandrina, Philomena and Des Agnes;  Mrs. Guertin, a boarder;  Mrs. Dr. Chagnon, of Fall River, Mass..."

........
"The news of the death of Mrs. Marie Anne Chagnon, wife of Dr. John B Chagnon of this city, which happened today, at St. Hyacinthe, Can., was received with widespread regret in this city where the deceased was generally known and highly esteemed.  The Metairie St. Joseph, where Mrs. Chagnon met her death, is a sort of private boarding house for retired members of the clergy and an ecclesiastical summer resort.  Before the summer season the nuns who keep the place take boarders for a few weeks at a time.

Mrs. Chagnon was in Canada for the purpose of refitting the new homestead bought by the doctor, which is situated next door to the metairie.  Mr. and Mrs. Chagnon and their daughter were going to remove there next winter or earlier to reside.  The work was almost completed,  and Mrs. Chagnon had written to her husband that everything was according to her liking, and that she would come back in a few days."

...........
"Mrs. Chagnon was only 54 years old, and her maiden name was Marie Anne Gigault.  She married first Desire Phaneuf, a merchant from St. Damase, Can., and later Dr. Chagnon, whose second wife she was.  She has a son living in this city, Dr. J.S. Phaneuf of Globe Village, and another now in the Klondike regions.  She has a brother who is an Oblate Father at Lowell, Mass., and another a government employee at Ottawa.

She leaves here her husband and his children, and a large circle of friends and relatives.  The doctor and his family, as well as the children of the deceased, have the full sympathy of the public in this trying hour of sorrow.  The remains of the deceased will probably be buried in Canada."

Wow!  Thanks for the long awaited info, Kat!  Well, at least we know that Mrs. Chagnon wasn't just crazy and jumped out the window for nothing.  If all of this story is true, how sad, how tragic! 

I agree whole-heartedly, Susan.  It was a sad thing to read before bedtime.

Hoffman describes "Marianne" as jumping out a convent window to her death.  If he had access to this article, which he possibly did (to get that much info) why did he leave out the fire, and leave ME thinking it was suicide?  Why?

I now have a question that Edisto or William might be able to answer?
What I hoped to find out, is why Dr. Chagnon is listed in Hoffman as WENCESLAS JEAN BAPTISTE CHAGNON. (Dr.)

If the info on his wife is correct, why are the doctors names given differently?

Just returning from a "sabatical" of sorts...haven't had time to all the messages in this thread but maybe I can offer some further info on the good Dr. Chagnon.

He had three wives in his liftime. Mrs. Chagnon numero uno was Victorine whom he married in 1861 and with whom he fathered 13 (!!) children, whewww, including Marthe, who plays in this drama.

Mrs. Chagnon numero dos was Marianne whom he married in 1885 (no children mentioned) and finally Mrs. Chagnon numero tre was Isabelle with whom he was living at 91 Third Street at the time of the crime. (also not children mentioned).

The Chagnon dwelling in 1892 **did not sit directly behind** the Borden house.  It was diaognally northeast of the Borden property. Directly behind the Borden house adjacent to the Chagnon house was at the time a PEAR ORCHARD...hint, clue.

Even if Lucy Collett were "sitting" on the front porch of the Chagnon house the morning of the murders it is quite possible for someone to have scaled the six or eight foot wooden fence behind the Borden home, using the lumber pile which was piled **against** the fence and make their escape into the pear orchard amongst the trees which were no doubt in full bloom.

It is plausible that the killer could have made it over the fence and move to the southeast corner of the orchard where he/she could have jumped over the four foot fence and made his/her way southerly on Third Street away from the scene without detection.

The Crowe yard south of the orchard plot where the stone work was being done did not have an unobstructed view of the orchard.  There was a house and other buildings in the line of sight.

Ah yes, but yet another theory to ponder...that's my story and I'm sticking to it...

BC

Good info and good story, Bob Cook!  I'd stick to it also! 

Except that it was Marianne who was involved at the time of the crime and it was she who was called as a defense witness at trial.  I guess he got a third wife too.*
It always amazes me tho to find out that these guys had serial wives!

*This is real confusing...
Hoffman AND KNowlton both have Marianne's death as 1895, jumping out a window.  AND the Dr.s name as WENCESLAS JEAN BAPTISTE Chagnon.  (In Hoffman, he has also a listing for J.B. CHAGNON, but he says see:  WENCESLAS...)

Knowlton Papers (Which is probably as correct as we can get...), pg. 417:

CHAGNON, WENCESLAS  JEAN BAPTISTE
(1837 - 1912)  "Born in St. Jean Baptiste, Rouville, Canada, son of Antoine and Marie-Ann (Bernard) Chagnon. Educated in Catholic seminaries in Canada, he studied at the University of New York, receiving his medical degree in 1860. This was followed by a one-year course of study at McGill University, Montreal, and an additional four months' of study in Paris, France. He practiced medicine in Canada for eighteen years, ten years of which he also served as a justice of the peace. He held the position of surgeon-major in the Canadian Militia from 1868 to 1878 and took part in the Fenian Invasion during the Franco-Prussian War. In 1879, he emigrated to the United States and settled in Fall River, Massachusetts. Anglicizing his mame to "John B.," he established his practice and opened a pharmacy. The father of twenty children, he was married three times. In 1861, he married Miss Victorine Desnoyer of his native town with whom he had thirteen children. In 1885, he was married a second time to Mrs. Marie-Anne (Gigault) Phaneuf of Biddeford, Maine. He was married for the third time in 1898 to Miss Isabelle Ballou of Fall River, with whom he had seven children. He resided at 31 Third Street, directly behind the Andrew J. Borden residence at 92 Second Street. One of the most widely known French Canadian physicians in New England, he was a frequent contributor to the Montreal Medical Journal. Active in the community, he was a member of several medical and charitable societies. He died in Fall River, Massachusetts."

--Keep in mind bobcookbobcook's descriptive comments as to where the Chagnon house was actually located, as this commentary states wrongly "directly behind."
--The "John B". was a big help, too.

It wasn't unitl I found a drawing of the neighborhood from the 'rear view' that I found the pear orchard DIRECTLY behind number 92 Second Street. 

After veiwing that drawing and another that appears in one of the 17 texts I have accumulated that I concocted the theoritical idea that the would be killer could have easily made his/her way over the fence by way of the lumber pile into the orchard and exit without being seen.

The more I think of it the more I like it...also good ole Uncle John could have easily made that climb and come 'round from Third Street like nothing ever happened.

Or better still...went into the orchard stalled a few and came back into the Borden yard by way of that fence panel that Mrs. Chagnon and her daughter heard being "banged on" the night before.

I makin' my case and I am stickin' with it...

BC

If the exit is over the fence with the handy pile of lumber as step up, how do you think the assailant entered the property?

I was thinking about that daylight robbery too, lately.  That needn't be discussed here...but what I thought, May still be appropos, here...

The house behind me was robbed, 16 years ago.
There is a chain link fence arm-pit high surrounding their's & my property.
It was daylight, spring, Daylight savings time, a Saturday.
My dad and I were out on the side of our house cleaning litter boxes (yes...you guys!  THE SAME ONES!!) Talking, spraying water, that's all.  Assembly line stuff...mindless.
About an hour after we were through, the doorbell rang and it was a detective asking questions.
He came in and we were shocked to discover that the window that was breached was on the same side of the house as where we were...the legth of our house and backyard,& their backyard, away.  We heard and saw nothing!
It was the oddest thing.
We were situated perfectly to be witnesses and yet, Not Suspecting...We did not NOTICE! 

A few months ago, I saw an interesting little segment on some TV show.  There was a roomful of people, chatting, somewhat like a cocktail party, except that I don't think drinks were served.  The people (as I recall, anyway) had been told to watch for some specific thing, because they would be asked questions about it later.  (Example, somebody in the room would be acting as a pickpocket and trying to remove wallets from pants pockets.)  Anyway, everybody was so psyched up watching for this thief that they didn't even notice a guy in a gorilla suit wandering through the room.  It was totally unbelievable!  I guess if you're on the lookout for one specific thing, you don't necessarily notice other things that might be happening.

(Message last edited Jul-24th-02  1:26 PM.)

What you two are talking about made me think of magicians and their feats of legerdermain.  They get you to focus on the right hand while the left one is busy making a switch or such.

As an artist, I'm trained to look at or notice things that other people don't and will point out this findings as such.  But, I totally agree with what you are saying, most of the the witnesses in this case were not looking for murderers or such on August 4 and I'm sure in most cases when someone says that they don't know or can't recall, its just that, they don't remember, or didn't see whatever.