1. "What'll you have Miss Borden?"
Posted by kashesan on Jul-26th-02 at 11:13 AM

Emma left Maplecroft after Lizzie began to throw parties for Nance and her theater crowd, and the place in Tyngsboro was not known for its sobriety. I wonder if Lizzie ever got totally wasted, and on what. Ever woke up on the bathroom floor wearing just a bra, tied on like a cravat. (That by the way never happened to me)

I fancy Miss Lizzie taking an occasional decorous sip of champagne.  If she was indeed the guilty party, wouldn't she be afraid to get wasted, for fear she might blurt out something incriminating?  I don't think they had bras, per se, in those days.  When I don 19th century dress, I wear something called a "bust improver."  It's pretty much like a corset with a couple of little shelves to arrange them on.  It would be tough to wear it as a cravat, although it might work as a cummerbund.

Bust improver? That will keep my imagination working overtime this weekend.

Edisto, wasn't Lizzie's era known as the "Unibosom" era?  I can recall reading that after a certain point in time, the corsets pushed the bust out as one unit.  As opposed to a bra, which will lift and seperate.

I can see our Lizzie sipping sherry and other "lady approved" drinks.  Much as I'd like to, I can't see her chugging beer 'til she passed out.  I would think she would be a really cheap date as it wouldn't take much to get her tipsy!  I suppose that wine would be okay also.  Dr. Bowen prescribed it for Abby, castor oil mixed with Port wine to kill the taste.  I guess its the hard liquors that the WCTU preached against? 

For sure, a "bust improver" doesn't do much improving, or separating either, although it really doesn't convert everything into one big breast either.  I'm certain the WCTU frowned on every form of beverage that contained alcohol, which would include beer and wine.  Abby got away with it because she was taking it for medicinal purposes.  The drugstores probably sold little bottles as "medicine."

Perhaps I'm thinking of an earlier time frame, like the 1880s?  But, I do recall in my studies of Victorian clothing that there was a period that suffered with unibosom.

I believe that you are right, Edisto, about the WCTU.  How funny, Abby could take a little sip of wine because its medicinal.  Yet, most of the patent medicines of the period contained narcotics that I'm sure were far more harmful than alcohol ever could be. 

(Message last edited Jul-27th-02  2:18 AM.)

Well, Kash, I figure dear Lizzie had had enough of prim and proper by the time of her association with ACTRESSES and the theatre (still considered very much equal to prostitution in the 19th Century by many), and that her teetotaling days were well past her. Her disassociation with the WCTU was complete and, yeah, she probably enjoyed a sherry every night and champagne at parties and maybe even (get this) smoked a cigar while sipping her whiskey. In the privacy of her own home, that is.

Yeah, I see a cigar.

(Message last edited Jul-26th-02  10:43 PM.)

Didn't Cook kick the WCTU out of the A.J.B. building?

Really?  Who is this Cook person?  Didn't Lizzie still own the AJ Borden building at the time?  What a kick in the pants (or skirts) that must have been! 

As long as it's "medicine," almost everything is excusable.  I have to admit I don't feel the same about abusers of prescription medications as I do about people who use street drugs.  That's terribly silly of me, because some of these people get their prescription medicines from pushers, so it amounts to the same thing.  About ten years ago, I got a telephone call from my father's elderly widow.  She was clearly as drunk as a lord.  (Where did that expression come from, I wonder?)  I asked a relative about it later, and she said calmly, "Oh, yes, sometimes she's out of her head in the evenings.  It's her medicine."  I feel sure this woman had never taken an alcoholic drink in her life, but she got drunk daily.  It really was very sad, because shortly after that she was found wandering in somebody's cornfield after dark and had to be placed in an institution.

Charles C. Cook  (Rebello, pg. 329 & 294)

"...From 1885 Mr. Cook was a conveyancer, claims agent and insurance agent with an office at the Granite Block.  In 1896, he became involved with real estate, stocks, bonds and insurance.  He had an office at 109 South Main Street in the Andrew J. Borden Building....Mr. Cook was a very close friend of Lizzie Borden and she rewarded his trust and financial guidance by naming him executor of her will and a legatee."
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"Executor Accussed By Borden Heirs / Cook Has Manipulated Estate for Own Use / Probate Court at Fall River Told / Asked to Withold Fee / Administrator Claims House He Sold for Personal Profit Was Given Him By Woman" Providence Journal, April 24, 1931: 1  (Rebello, 330)
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"The Globes reply to the Boston Advertiser article  '...the Women's (sic) Christian Temperance Union...was not turned out of it's rooms [in the Borden Bldg.]...by Miss Lizzie Borden, and was not invited out, but was given to understand that it wasn't wanted, which is equivalent in polite society to be ordered out and invited out, rolled into one.'    [June, 1894]
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WITNESS STATEMENTS, pg. 30, Medley notes:
"Edith Francis, clerk for C. C. Cook makes the following statement. 'I happened to be looking out of the window of our office in Mr. Borden's Block on South Main street Thursday morning, shortly after ten o'clock; and saw Mr. Borden going south on So. Main street, walking on the East side of the street. He looked up at the building, but kept right on. He was alone at the time.' "

"Charles C. Cook made the following statement. 'I am business manager for Mr. Andrew J. Borden, for the Borden Block. I did not see Mr. Borden Thursday. I have had charge of the Block almost since it was built. He used to come in once in a while, but not every day, nearly always alone. The only other person who ever came with him was his wife, excepting once when Lizzie came with him to sign a deed conveying some property she owned to her father. This property was owned jointly by the two sisters, and was situated on Ferry street. Lizzie has been here three or four times, once came to ask me about the value of the property she was going to .convey to her father. I told her, and she went away.'
(Question.) 'Mr. Cook, have you any reason to believe Mr. Borden had, or had not, made a will?'
(Answer) 'I do not think Mr. Borden had made a will, unless it has been made recently. I will tell you how I know. He came to my office one day when I was writing, and waited until I finished, when I told him I was just writing a will. He said "Charles, do you know that is something I have never done yet, but I must attend to it." '
(Question) 'Mr. Cook, do you know of anything that would lead you to imagine that Lizzie and her father did not get along well together?'
(Answer) 'I do not like to answer that question on account of my position as custodian of property, as I do not know what my relations may be with the family, when this thing is settled.'
(Question.) 'Would you be willing to answer that question in strict confidence to the City Harshal?'
(Answer) 'Yes sir, I would.' "

--This guy made a lot of money off the Borden family and their properties.  He managed to keep out of the Knowlton Papers Glossary, which is saying a great deal, considering his influence on Borden Money Matters!.



(Message last edited Jul-27th-02  11:09 PM.)

Wow, thanks for the great info, Kat!  So, it appears Lizzie did have a hand in getting rid of the WCTU, I wonder why?  After the trial was she snubbed by them?  I know alot of her fans and supporters during the trial kind of fell away after the aquittal. 

More on C. C. Cook-
Rebello, pg. 329:
"Mr. Charles C. Cook left an estate of $69,288 to various friends, employees and a cousin.  [His only child died 1882].  His nieces were left $5 each.  The Second Baptist Church of Fall River, Mass., received the remainder of his estate.  Mr. Cook, at the time of his death, owned a house and land on Main Road, Tiverton, R.I., and according to Probate Records 'unimproved land on Highland Ave. and French St.'.  This land, the Baker lot, was left to him by Lizzie A. Borden."

--Do people with bad conscience's leave a bulk of their fortune to their Church rather than their neices?  It would be interesting to know more about this man...
Is this the equivalent of $600,000?
Not bad for a guy whose father had a shop, Cook & Grew, plumbers and tinsmiths.
He did marry a woman named "Wealthy Winslow"--what a NAME!

I agree Stef; I think the WCTU and her church activities were simply social outlets (and great places to meet chicks) while still living under Andrew's strict rules. She seems to have changed her venue, at least for a time, once ensconced in Maplecroft.

Well...Chawles was certainly no relative of mine...

BC

Lizzie's church friend said (Holmes?--R. 229, Boston Herald, 1892) that Lizzie changed *about 5 years ago* and became more assertive and likeable and lost her *annoying* shyness, and began making friends.  Well, 5 years before was when she was given 1/2 a house by Andrew after either sulking or outright demanding (Whichever you believe) recompence for his *generosity* to Abby.  So, now she is a new landlord, with real estate in her name, she blossoms out of her shell and finally feels like she fits in with the church & charity people...(?)

Rebello, 17, specifies Lizzie's name as being on a list of officers of the WCTU in 1892, and not again thereafter.

That almost makes Lizzie come across as being so shallow.  All show, all surface.  But, maybe that is what she needed as her armor to come out of her protective shell.  Its funny, but, most of the Cancer people I have met in my life are typically like Lizzie, they need constant reassurance, that you still like them or love them, etc.  Andrew and Emma must have had a hard row to hoe dealing with Lizzie.  And Abby, she didn't have a fighting chance, no matter how many times she tried to assure Lizzie or kowtow to her. 

Her teacher and her charitable friend both said she was shy and was predisposed to thinking she made a bad impression on people and that caused her to be hold back her personality.
It is only the remark that was made about her *blossoming* 5 years ago, that got my attention and I looked for cause & effect.  Since I have her Life's Timeline handy I can pinpoint a significant event 5 years ago and possibly ascribe some meaning to it.
If that change in her demeanor is COINCIDENTAL to the gain of property, then that is anyone's choice to make their Own determination or interpretation.

If the WCTU members turned against her, that is one reason to not give them free (?) rooms for their organization. (My assumption, since they didn't choose another building. Is it true?)

Doesn't this go on today? Would a mayor allow his opposition to use municipal rooms to organize? Yes, the rules are different from a century ago. One thing, is they keep their bias hidden better.

I wish Charles Cook left private papers behind.  It seems like there was a lot he didn't say.
I think he didn't make the Knowlton Papers because he never wrote to Knowlton.  The book is comprised of all letters to him, isn't it?

Well, that might seem a contradiction.
If the letters comprised the book,  and Cook wrote Knowlton no letters, then hoping for papers to surface from Charles Cook might be to wait in vain.  He might never have put anything in writing about the case, not even to the authorities.  He wouldn't give a statement except to the Marshal, personally, and we have yet to find out if that will show up in the Hilliard Papers.
Good question.

Glossary "B" is for bio info on letter-writers, but Glossary "A" is bio info on characters referred to in the TEXT.  That means Cook wasn't even Written ABOUT!

BTW:  I was shocked to discover a mention in Rebello that the Knowlton Papers were donated to the FRHS in 1989.  I am more shocked to discover in the same source, that Hilliard's Papers were ALSO donated in 1989!  That's 13 years ago?



(Message last edited Jul-31st-02  7:46 PM.)

Wow, I wonder who had the papers all that time?  Family, private collector? 

I wished 'I' were one of the lucky Cook's to have had those papers but then again 13 years ago I really wasn't a "Bordenite" so they wouldn't have done me any good anywho.

As for far as "What'll you have Miss Borden?" (first few replies regarding what Lizzie would or might have as a drink) I can see her pulling on a bottle of gin straight up no tonic or lime.

Yeah, that would be her drink of choice...good ole fashioned gin! Bet she had a bottle hidden in the house...slurp, burp.

That's my line and I'm stinking to it...

BC

The citation says grandchildren.
Thank You Grandchildren!

What are the odds that Lizzie drank after being a pious member of the church, didn't dance, and Prohibition coming on, and Mrs. Livermore looking over her shoulder, AND the possibility of a loosened tongue spilling any beans there might be to spill?  After the staunch upbringing she endured, do you guys really think Lizzie drank?

I'd like a vote on this...

How cool!  At least the grandchildren had the sense to pass on these important papers to a fairly reliable institution instead of trying to sell them to the highest bidder!

I for one think that Lizzie did drink, but, in moderation.  As I had stated in an earlier post, I can see her sipping sherry or wine, and perhaps the occasional champagne.  And seeing that she was a member in the WCTU for, what was it, like 1 year. 

I'd vote "no," even though I earlier said I thought Lizzie would have been a champagne drinker.  Maybe she tasted it once or twice, but I've never seen any evidence that she drank "beverage alcohol" (as the Southern Baptists used to call it.  As opposed to what?).  Though she was only briefly active in the WCTU, there must have been some reason why she joined in the first place.  I've never heard there was any drinking in the Borden house before the murders, so she wouldn't have gotten the habit there.  Her fling with "show people" was apparently brief, and the rest of her friends don't sound like drinkers.  The Fall River newspapers are full of stories about the evils of drink, and I'm sure she was all too aware of the pitfalls.

The WCTU was an organized group of women who fought against drunkeness. Prohibition had its roots in upstate NY in the early 19th century. It is basically the "politically correct" thing, but did not work out in practice. I understand that when unions struck, they would often shut down saloons because of the negative effects on idle workmen. Corporate owners didn't like the idea because 1) it could affect workmanship and productivity; 2) it gave workingmen a chance to talk together, share grievances, and organize unions. Aside from churches, there was no other place for laborers to hang out. IMO.

Her father was against drinking (no drink shop, according to LAB's testimony), so she could curry favor with Dear Dad. And find a socially useful way to spend her time. She was also on the board of the hospital!!! AR Brown notes that was Highly Unusual for that time.

Her father was against drinking (no drink shop, according to LAB's testimony), so she could curry favor with Dear Dad. And find a socially useful way to spend her time. She was also on the board of the hospital!!! AR Brown notes that was Highly Unusual for that time.

So, do you have a vote, Ray?
Yea, or Nay...

As a member of the WCTU, I believe that LAB would NOT be seen with any hard liquor, or even beer or wine or cider. But maybe in later years. What documentation do we have on this? Has any author ever mentioned this?

Rays, I don't think any author has ever mentioned Lizzie drinking.  This was just a case of do we think if Lizzie ever touched alcohol or not, just a guessing game really.  And wasn't Lizzie a member of the WCTU for only like a year?