1. "Money"
Posted by augusta on Jul-12th-02 at 3:56 AM

I wonder about the money that was on Andrew's person when he died.  That was a lot of money in 1892 dollars.  I think we figured it out once and it was over a thousand in today's currency.  Why was Andrew walking around with that much money on him?  He didn't collect any rents that morning, did he?

Why was he carrying tobacco?

Maybe he kept a certain amount handy to close an instant deal or put down a deposit. 

Andrew had tobacco on him?  Was it snuff, chew, or smoking tobacco?  Andrew didn't indulge as far as we know, I have to wonder if Kat has something there.  But, did Andrew have a pipe or rolling papers on him? 

Preliminary, Dolan, p. 194

Q.  I see you have produced some fine cut chewing tobacco; you understood that Mr. Borden was not in the habit of using tobacco, chewing tobacco?
A.  I do not know; I could not tell you.
Q.  You do not know, except that there is a package of partly used fine chewing tobacco?
A.  Yes Sir.

Prelim., p.183-4
Q.  Did you search, or cause to be searched, the person of Mr. Borden at that time?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did you take from it the things that were found?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  What did you take?
A.  I took some keys.
Q.  Where are they.
A.  In my possession.
Q.  Have you got them here?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Will you produce them?
A.  If you wish, yes sir.
Q.  I do. You took some keys?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  A bunch?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  That is to say, they were on a key ring?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  In what pocket were they?
A.  I did not take them myself.
Q.  Did you see them taken?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Who gave them to you?
A.  The undertaker.
Q.  I understood you to say you took some keys.
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Did not I just ask you if you searched, or caused the search?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Do you know where these keys came from, what pocket?
A.  No Sir, I do not.
Q.  Did they come from any pocket?
A.  I could not say.
Q.  Where were you when the undertaker handed them to you?
A.  In the sitting room.
Q.  On this day?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did you take anythingelse from the person, or see anything taken from the person?
A.  I cannot remember now whether I took anything or not; I think I did take something myself; I cannot remember just what it was.
Q.  What else have you?
A.  I have got some money.
Q.  Loose, or in a pocket book?
A.  Loose and in a pocket book, change, I have some silver, and some money in a pocket book.
Q.  Who gave you those?
A.  The undertaker.
Q.  What else?
A.  I do not recollect anythingelse. I have a memorandum book.
Q.  Have you got any papers?
A.  I could not say; I have not examined it.
Q.  You have not examined them?
A.  I counted the money before the undertaker.
Q.  Where are all these things?
A.  In the safe at the office.
Q.  Will you produce them?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Have you any keys other than this bunch of keys?
A.  There is a big key there, like a shop key.
Q.  Have you any other key besides the big shop key and this bunch of keys?
A.  I do not know, I have not examined them thoroughly; they were all put in a handkerchief, and tied up, and they have remained that way.

-They seemed to be very interested in whether those keys had been disturbed or rearranged in their order on the key ring.  This is a mystery as to where THAT line of questioning was leading.
-Later at the Trial, Prof. Dr. Wood says the dining room door frame "string" stain was not blood but was "yellowish" and could have been tobacco or soup (spilled?).

-Anybody have any ideas as to the "key questions?"



(Message last edited Jul-13th-02  6:54 AM.)

I've surmised (which is certainly a bad idea!) that the authorities wanted to know whether any of Andrew's keys might be missing.  Since he owned considerable rental property, theft of keys might have been a motive for his murder.  He certainly seemed to be fascinated with locks and keys, didn't he?  Just look how many references there are to such devices!  He had keys on the mantel which he took (or didn't take, depending on whose version we believe) before he went upstairs.  He had other keys in his pocket.  He picked up a broken lock and either wrapped it up and took it home or discarded it somewhere.  None of his numerous keys helped when he couldn't get into his own house.  Keys, keys, keys.  Do you suppose there's a "key" to the "case" somewhere here?

Andy was carrying tobacco that he didn't use? Of course!!
Most likely he got it for "free" (from a tenant in his building?).
Or to give as a cheap tip to his associates.
I'll bet he bought it when it was going "past date"! The way some people buy bread & cakes.

Thanks, Kat!  I don't have the Preliminary so any info I can get like this is sooo helpful!  Now I have to wonder, did Andrew have a secret vice and indulge in chewing tobacco?  Or, was it in preparation for a certain guest that would be showing up at the house shortly after he got home?  Or, for all I know, it could have been for John Morse?  Strange.  And especially that little "string" of yellowy red stuff on the doorjamb that might have been tobacco juice.  Yuck!  Did the Bordens have a spitoon of some sort in the house?

I think Edisto is on the right track, I believe thats where all the interest in the keys come from.  Was it ever determined if any of Andrew's keys were missing?  He did seem to have keys to everything and everywhere in town, it would be difficult to determine.  And one other thing, were all these keys "skeleton keys"?  The Victorian types of keys like the picture down below, or were they more like modern day keys?

I seem to remember that we've been down this 'Tobacco Road' before.  Was it on the other board, perhaps?  I vaguely recall some speculation along the lines of rays' comments -- that Andrew may have obtained it gratis, and may have kept it on his person to offer to business acquaintances (in the same way as people offered cigarettes, for example). 

And wasn't another theory put forward that perhaps the tobacco didn't actually come from Andrew's pockets -- but just got mixed in with the other contents in the confusion.  (I remember people speculating as to why there would be tobacco in the room, if it were not his, though.) 

But, at one point in his preliminary hearing testimony, Dolan is asked:
Q:"Did you take anything else from the person, or see anything else taken from the person?"
A: "I cannot remember now whether I took anything or not; I THINK I DID TAKE SOMETHING MYSELF; I CANNOT REMEMBER JUST WHAT IT WAS." (p.183)
The above is what leads me to believe there might have been a fair amount of confusion surrounding the collecting of items from the body.

But doesn't it almost sound like Dolan is covering himself in case SOMEONE remembers him taking something?  ( I'm probably just being hyper-suspicious here.)

Yes, Diana, it does sound like Dolan was covering himself.  He thinks he took "one thing" but can't remember what?  It doesn't quite click.  It just sounds like he feels impelled to say that, as you say, just in case ...

We talked about the tobacco on another thread here not long ago.  Someone said maybe he snuck some once in a while, and that was just as good an answer as any.  Someone testified that Andrew didn't use tobacco.  But he could have on the sly.  Or it could have gotten mixed up in his things - there were so many people there that day.

Was the tobacco NEW, and UNOPENED?  Or was it opened and used?  If it was new, maybe he did get it for Morse.  But there's no testimony saying Andrew bought tobacco that morning. 

The money in his pocket is interesting also.  Harry had figured it out once, long ago, and it came to like a thousand dollars in today's money.  Andrew didn't collect any rents that day, did he?

He was already upstairs and could have put the money in the safe if he wanted to.  The safe was off of his bedroom, gotten to via the back stairs which is where he went when he got home that morning.  Obviously he wasn't depositing it in the bank, either, since he visited the banks.  Unless he got the money afterwards from a renter.  But nobody said he collected it. 

I wonder if he got the money out of the safe when he went upstairs.
What was the next thing that was supposed to happen?  Morse was supposed to come home for dinner.  Or at least Andrew had invited him, and Morse did not answer.  Did Andrew know Morse would be back without Morse answering?  Some relatives are like that - mention food and they're there.  And if Morse put up with that breakfast ... Was the money Andrew had on him for Morse?  They had a deal in the wind they were working on.  Morse originally had come there to help Andrew do what?  Was it sell horses, or buy cattle?  No one came forward and mentioned they had a meeting scheduled with Andrew for that afternoon.  That money in his pocket bugs me.  It's too much for him to have on him.

It seems as if an autopsy would tell, by the mouth and teeth, if Andrew used tobacco, especially the chewing kind.  Since it was found on his person, you'd think they would look for evidence of personal use!

We had wondered if there were any spitoons in the house, even if just for guests?
Wouldn't Bridget name the emtying of spitoons in her catalogue of duties?
If I had to tell my duties I'd list changing the cat-box litter!  Meaning, I'd tell the worst job I disliked the most...& cleaning spitoons sounds gross!

Inquest, 100, Morse says he answered "I would" to Andrew when asked to come back for dinner.

He also says he was there to see Andrew about a man he (Morse) knew who could take over charge of the farm.  THAT was supposedly in the last letter from Andrew to Morse which he had in his pocket when he testified at Inquest.

BTW:  Lizzie says Andrew did NOT go upstairs upon returning home...She Swears.
Bridget says he did.

Obviously with Lizzie and Bridget, one is lying or mistaken about Andrew going upstairs, but, I'm trying to figure what each could gain from her story?  Lizzie says he didn't go upstairs which would lead us to believe that she spent more time with him, which is bad for her as it gave her ample opportunity to do the deed!

Bridget says Andrew did go upstairs, after he went, she never saw him again?  Is that what she is trying to say?  Or, was it after she say Andrew sitting in his chair at the head of the lounge, that she didn't see him again after?  Like she went about her daily business and Andrew went about his(distancing) and that was the last she saw of him. 

Pshaw!  I erased my post!  No, I don't think Bridget said the last time she saw Andrew was when he was going upstairs.  I think the last time she saw him was when she was going upstairs to take her rest. 

I hadn't heard that the 'string' might have been tobacco.  I'm amazed nobody back then seems to have followed up on that tobacco on Andrew.  If he didn't chew it himself, maybe somebody picked up the murderer's.  Would a murderer chew tobacco as he was killing somebody?  I guess they could. 

Yes, I'd think evidence of Andrew using tobacco could have been picked up at an autopsy.  But the complete autopsy was done a full week later. The brains in both of them were liquified.  At the house, it looks like they were mainly concerned with getting the stomachs out and to the lab.

I didn't realize Lizzie said Andrew did not go upstairs. They asked so many questions and everyone is talking to me about the murders all the time, I do not know one thing from another.

If Lizzie lied about Andrew, saying he didn't go upstairs, what would her motive have been?  

See "What IF"  by Moi.  Under Topic:  "WHY SO SLOW".

Also, while you're at it, see "Andrew's Eggs", my favorite while you weren't around.

[Edit here:  Oh, yea, my mother taught me to say," Please..."]

(Message last edited Jul-15th-02  12:21 AM.)

I think that is a strong possibility, Augusta and all, that Andrew may have taken the money out of the safe when he made his trip upstairs. The assumption is always made that Andrew had the money on him when he entered the house.  When the safe was opened after the deaths there was a supply of cash in it.

The value of the money Andrew had on him (I believe roughly $81) adjusted for inflation would be about $1500 in todays dollars.  That's a bit much walking around money especially for someone known to be as tight with a dollar as Andrew. Maybe he had plans to go out after dinner to make a purchase, a deal, something.

For those curious enough the inflation calculator can be found at:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/