1. "Morse Sees the Bodies"
Posted by augusta on Jun-30th-02 at 12:00 PM

Morse seemed to know just where to look to see Abby's body, and his seeing Andrew's body is curious.  This is from page 254 of his testimony from the Preliminary Hearing.

Q:  Where did you first go after you entered the kitchen from the hall or entry way?
A:  I went through, up on the stairs, part way up the front stairs.
Q:  How did you get there?
A:  I went through the back hall, through the sitting room, into the front hall, and up the stairs.
Q:  Passed by Mr. Borden lying on the sofa?
A:  Yes Sir.
Q:  Did you look at him?
A:  I cast one glance at him, that is all.
Q:  Was he covered at that time?
A:  No Sir.
Q:  You went up the front stairs, did you go up into the room?
A:  No Sir.
Q:  How far did you go?
A:  Probably two-thirds of the way up, so I could look under the bed.
Q:  What do you mean by "look under the bed"?
A:  When I got up high enough, I could look through the space under the bed, and saw Mrs. Borden laying there between the bed and the bureau.
Q:  Did you know she was up in that room?
A:  They told me so.

I'm sure Bridget said, "Go see fer yerself, John.  Mrs. Borden is lyin' up on the guest room floor.  But you needn't go in the room unless you want to.  You can see her from the sixth stair on yer way up if you look under the bed."  "Okay, Servant Girl," replies Morse. 

Yes, I've always viewed John Morse's behaviour as odd!  I mean, here are allegedly two of his friends and family members and he just gives Andrew "a glance" going by.  I would imagine it was a grisly site up close and personal, but, just a glance?  Whats that all about?  I would think either he would not look at him because it was too horrible or he would go and stand in the sitting room and try to make heads or tails of what happened.  And poor Abby didn't even merit going into the guest room to see her, just a peek under the bed.  So much for beloved family members!

I love your little Bridget and John Morse scenario, Augusta! 

Morse and Doherty  (From the LizzieAndrewBorden Web-Site / Virtual Museum), Chronoligies, Comparative Testimonies:

Patrick Doherty, upon first visiting the guest room, where Mrs. Borden's body lay, had moved the bed "away from her head" to make the space wider. He then went to telephone the station, and when he returned spoke to Bridget a few minutes in the kitchen. He then went upstairs, returning to the guest room, and implies Dr. Dolan was also in the room.

"I saw Mr. Morse in the room when I got back from the telephone, when I was looking at Mrs. Borden's body. He stood in the room with his hand on the foot of the bed." (Preliminary Hearing, p. 330 - 332).

Morse's testimony:
11:50 a.m.
"I went part way up the stairs. I did not go into the room at all, looked under the bed, and saw Mrs. Borden lying there". . ."They told me" she was up there.

Morse then saw Lizzie (implies in the kitchen), then he went outside for "3 or 4 hours." (Preliminary Hearing, p. 245, 254).

TIMELINE OF EVENTS:
11:32 a.m.
Doherty first heard of the event. Walked "as far as the post office, and I ran."

11:35
Approximate arrival, Doherty.

11:35- 11:50
Takes in situation.
Talks to Dr. Bowen.
Looks at Andrew's body.
Goes up stairs to look at Abby's body.
Moves bed.
Examines Abby.
Talks to Dr. Bowen.
Goes down stairs and takes 30 second run to Gorman's to telephone the Marshal.
Talks to Marshal.
30 second run back to house.
Speaks to Bridget.
Returns up stairs to guest room.
There is Morse (and possibly Dr. Dolan-who can't recall), at 11:50 a.m. when Morse says he went up stairs. (Preliminary Hearing ,p. 329-332).

Curiouser & Curiouser...


Morse and Doherty © 2001 Kat Koorey

There are more contradictions in this case everywhich way you turn!  Thanks for the info, Kat! 

Morse is asked if he did not make some exclamation - anything!  He simply said he was nervous at the time.  He did not mention anyone else being upstairs that I remember.  Either he was wrong in his "excitement" (which he seemed to be anything BUT excited that morning) or he went upstairs twice.

The problem in all this is to depend on trial testimony (rehearsed and polished at the lawyers). You know that extraneous matters are not asked for at a trial or hearing. Just because it isn't there doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I'll bet Uncle John was scared sitless because he seems to have arranged this meeting ("accomplice before the fact"?) AND could be blamed by an ambitious prosecutor. (He was regarded as a "horse trader".) The fact that he just looked for a moment rings true; why would he study a murdered man who was a relative and friend?

Have any of you ever been in such a situation? Sudden violent death?
I don't even like to visit wakes myself.
Note that NOBODY breaks down in crying and screaming here!!! I'll bet that Abby would have done so if she did go out on that errand and came back to find her world crashed.

I followed timelines to try for accuracy and comparing testimonies, and there was about a 2 minute difference in my calculations at the time, and that actually worried me!

After becoming more immured to the laxity in timing amongst our several main characters, I realize I was taking the timing way too seriously.

But that leaves us with:

That Morse went up twice between 11:48 and 11:50, or he went up once around 11:50 and then either lied or forgot or was shocked into not recalling.  It could also be a matter of him not being asked the RIGHT questions?


Thanks for the insights, Rays.

David Kent "40 Whacks" gives the timing in seconds for Andy's death (what Lizzie did) based on his actual on-site movements.

He also notes that few people carried watches or kept to the second times then, or now. Does anyone here note the times they're at this site? Radin also points out the fallibility of assuming exact times, then or now.

"Everybody believes in the accuracy of their watch, but put a group together and measure how they really agree."

Good posts, Rays.  People react differently.  But I would think in this case, gee, Lizzie and Morse both would have been really rattled.  No tears on Lizzie?  She did show some signs of distress, but I think that could be so even if she did the killings - like "when she saw what she had done" it was gruesome and shocking. 

Morse is a suspicious character.  I've always thought so, but am even more so after reading his Preliminary Testimony.  True, the attorneys couldn't or didn't dig in deep enough for us.  In some parts a witness will begin to tell something that we today would relish, but is told "You needn't tell that part."  Grrrr....

Synchronizing time back then was tough.  It seems like Fall River went officially by the City Hall clock - and who's to say that was right?  Bridget had a clock in her attic room.  Didn't look at it when it was important to - but who knows if it coincided with City Hall?  They didn't have as many cross checks as we do on the time.  I think they used a noon whistle from the mills too.  In one part of the Preliminary Hearing someone - a policeman I think - is asked about the time.  He gives it, but it's found that there's a sign right on the clock in the office that it runs five minutes fast.  If you look at some of these times, they don't add up too well.  I think we need to take the times given during the murders with a little grain of salt thrown in.

I have read what Rays refers to in David Kent's book, it is fascinating, a minute by minute of account of what had to happen and when in order to fit the time frame.

But, I agree with you, Augusta, time wasn't as precise as today, and even today, its not so precise.

I too agonize over when a witness starts to say something and is cut off, very aggravating!!!  But, I still think that Morse knowing that his friend and relative was hacked apart would have said something on the stand like, I only glanced at him because I could not stand to see what had been done to Andrew, it angered(saddened, sickened,  you fill in the blank) me.  Or, I couldn't bring myself to look at what had been done to Andrew at all, I prefer to remember him as he was alive.  But, no, I just glanced at him.

And as for Lizzie, if she was innocent and stumbled across Andrew's dead and bleeding body, I can't help but think that she would do as I would have, probably screamed for Bridget, and gone out the side door to wait for her.  I would not want to be in that house a second more than I had to be.  Lizzie had to have seen that Andrew's blood was still dripping and therefor was freshly killed, I think thats when animal instinct would prevail, fight or flight! 

I agree with you, Susan.  The murderer could have been upstairs doing in Bridget for all Lizzie knew.    True, she said she saw the back screen door open, but for all she knew the murderer could have left it hanging open as he went IN.  And for Lizzie to STAY in the house after sending Bridget out - no way.  I don't even think I would have had the guts to go yell for Bridget. I think I would have went running and screaming up the street like Blanche Barrow.  I guess I would have run to the Bowen house, but I don't know how coherent I'd be.  Not this, "Oh, Mrs. Churchill, please come over.  Someone has killed father."  (Scary music here.)  Whoever did it, Lizzie knew they were gone or were no threat to her. 

Well, her behaviour leaves much to be desired, even if she was in shock, I still think her first instinct would be to get out of the house.  And if Lizzie did it or knew who did, I would think she would play the game and get out of the house just the same.  I guess acting wasn't one of Lizzie's strong points? 

Hmm.  This is true.  Why didn't Lizzie - if guilty - act out the role of the frightened, bewildered, helpless female?  She was so matter-of-fact, like her father.  Remember her jail cell interview where she says she never did show much emotion "and I cannot change my nature now".  She probably didn't know HOW to act like that and if she thought of it probably downright refused to do it. 
Geez, even the neighbors were locking their doors that night.  You know, because Lizzie was so matter-of-fact, I'd think she'd realize, "Okay, the killer might still be in here.  I'll just go over to the Bowen's."  She could have left the house without making a big deal out of it if that wasn't her style. 
I remember when I had my first apartment, I came home from work and everything was all messed up - stuff thrown out of my closets, and there was a light still on in a bedroom.  I went no further.  I backed out of the apartment without saying anything, got into my car, and sped to my parents' house.  My father came back to my apartment with me.  Turned out the landlord had been in there fixing the water heater during the day.    But things looked so suspicious - I just went on pure instinct. 

Whether or not Morse had anything to do with setting up the murders, I can't find anything suspicious in his account of walking through the sitting room on his way to go up and see Abby.  So, he only glanced at Andrew?  People react differently from one another.  Also, suppose Maggie did say something like "Mrs. Borden's dead up in the guest room!"  Once again, whether he'd engineered the events or not, maybe Morse peered fearfully into the room as he walked up those stairs, not wanting to see what he'd been told he'd see, and stopped when he found he could look right into the room from the staircase.  At that moment, that might've been as close as he wanted to get.

The more I live with the case, the more I have to remind myself that we'll never know exactly what was going through the participants' heads, and that humans are funny and contrary creatures.  I think Lizzie's a liar, and most likely a murderess, but even if she wasn't, she may have been shocked and upset in her own way.  We can't hear her tone of voice when she, seemingly casually, turned and told Alice that she wanted Winward as undertaker.  Victoria Lincoln likes to picture Lizzie as guilty and disassociating at that point, but Lizzie might've spoken just as oddly had she been innocent.      

Didn't Lizzie sit on the back porch and call Mrs Buffinton? If a stranger came by she could retreat into the house. If somebody was in the house, she could run into the street.
Her position WAS the optimal choice.

Also, I believe she saw the visitor leave when she returned from the barn. So she knew (?) there were no other visitors.

I don't think the Borden house had a back porch, per se.  Everything I've read indicates that after Lizzie sent Bridget to get the doctor, she (Lizzie) stood INSIDE the screen door, not outside on the "stoop."  I don't think she called for anyone until Mrs. Churchill (Mrs. Buffinton's daughter) called out of her own window and asked what was wrong.  Lizzie then asked her to come over.  My take on Lizzie's behavior is that she had caught only the briefest glimpse of Andrew and thought he could possibly still be alive (no matter what she said).  She stationed herself in a position where it would be easy to push open the screen door and rush outside, should the murderer return.  She was also in a position where she wouldn't be faulted for leaving Andrew in his hour of need, even though she probably realized he was beyond human help.  I too would probably rush out of the house and summon help on my own, but then I'm not Lizzie.  People do react to emergencies in different ways. 

According to Mrs. Churchill's inquest info, pg. 128,
Lizzie was inside the screen door, sitting "on the second stair which is right at the right of the screen door as you come in, the back stairs."  when Mrs. Churchill entered the house for the first time.

And there is the alleged story of Mrs. Churchill saying after the fact that Lizzie made 2 or 3 comments about the heat before she invited her over.  Odd behaviour and an odd place to put yourself, on the backstairs by the back door, guilty or innocent! 

(Message last edited Jul-10th-02  12:33 AM.)

Well, Edisto was right, and Ray was sort of right...

...Edisto when she said that Lizzie was seen Standing at the screen door by Churchill, and that got her attention...she Noticed that.
But by the time Churchill Entered Lizzie was seated on the inside stairs.  (The "seated" part Ray remembered...)

If the cellar door was kept locked (below her) and the bedroom door was kept locked (above her), Lizzie may have just sort of collapsed onto the stair, in relief that someone finally was coming, not fearful of an intruder appearing from her vantage point   (?)

Didn't Lizzie send Bridget across the street for Dr Bowen just before this?

This is a copy of part of my Chronology of the "Probable Sequence of Events", as described in the Preliminay Hearing...from the LizzieAndrewBorden web-site:


Lizzie calls out for Bridget, approx. 11:10 a.m. (p. 27)

Lizzie sends Bridget for Dr. Bowen (p. 27)

Bridget returns alone (p.28)

Lizzie sends Bridget for Alice Russell (p. 28)

Mrs. Churchill comes from next door while Bridget gone (p. 281 - 282)

Lizzie was alone (p. 282)

Mrs. Churchill goes for help (p. 283)

Mrs. Churchill returns (p. 284)

Lizzie was alone (p. 284)

Dr. Bowen comes (p. 28, 273)

Bridget returns (p. 273)

Lizzie, Bridget and Mrs. Churchill go into the kitchen (p. 284)


(Message last edited Jul-10th-02  7:37 PM.)

Very good, but there is no timeline. How long was she alone? Seconds?

It's a probable sequence.  Use your best judgement as to how long these things would take.  That guess would be as good as Radin's or anybodies, don't you think?

Base it on when the alarm was sounded by Lizzie, until Bowen got there?

But really your question was about the SEquence...did Churchill come while Bridget went for Bowen?...but she came while Bridget was gone for Alice.