Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: MORE MORSE MUSINGS

1. "MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Kat on Aug-17th-02 at 5:53 AM

See Inquest & Preliminary 

[P], pg. 244, Morse says he "Walked up" to Emery's.
[I ] , pg. 102, Morse says he "came to the post office and got a car" (to Emery's).

[P] 243, Morse says he picked that time of the morning to visit Weybosset Street partly because he "could not go in the afternoon."   ???

[P] 247,The questioner puts the words in Morses mouth but the gist of it is, that when he arrived on Wednesday afternoon, Mrs. Borden had told him they had all been sick, that she thought it might be the baker's bread, etc., and He Proceeded To Eat There, then, And the next morning, and was attempting to return Thursday from Emery's to EAT THERE AGAIN. 

[P] 248, The Borden's were contemplating going to Swansea, but were waiting to hear from Mrs. Vinnicum if she could go with them.  If she couldn't go, Abby & Andrew would not. - -(this is interesting, as it is remindful of the day of the robbery when A & A were at Swansea...did this imminent departure precipitate a murder?)

[I ] 105, Morse was asked if when he returned to the house he noticed nothing to attract his attention.  He replied that "All I could see in was in the screen door.  I went right by, the same as I would on any occaision."  And got his pears.

[P] 254, Morse cast one glance at Andrew dead and gashed on the couch as he passed through the sitting room (The LENGTH of the Sitting Room from the Kitchen!)--that the body was not covered by a sheet, and proceeded up the few stairs as needed to see the body of Abby under the bed, and then he returned downstairs and saw Lizzie, in the house, for the first time that year.

[P] 258, Morse is questioned about the blood spots on the parlour door that Emma cleaned off.  It comes out that he says he saw "not less than 40" blood spots on that door, whereas Knowlton, the questioner, says Dr. Dolan says there were "10".

[P] 264, Morse says in that recent MAY, Andrew told him he'd like to give some "bequests"...that "I would give (The Old Ladies Home) some land here (Swansea), if I thought they would accept of it."

[P]  Then there is all that round-about-tation with Morse about the cellar door being "open"..
[P] 263, and he was asked (in re-direct by Knowlton) if he had been at Swansea during that same week, or "been there with Miss Lizzie at anytime?"  Morse replied "No."  "Nor over to WARREN, or anywhere around there?"   "No."

--One of these days I'll get through a post with No Edit and all the spelling correct!  Ha!



(Message last edited Aug-17th-02  5:57 AM.)


2. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Susan on Aug-17th-02 at 11:27 AM
In response to Message #1.

You know, Kat, I had never thought about that, the poisoning story and then Morse eats there?  Whats that all about?  Do you think that after Abby told her tale of gloom and doom to John Morse that Andrew pooh-poohed the idea?  Told him that the woman didn't know what she was talking about and allayed any fears he might have, if any?

But, then Morse did see and hear about how sick they were, including Bridget.  Hmmm, maybe he just put it down to a case of summer complaint?  Or, knew what the "poison" had been put in and didn't eat or drink any of that material.  Sorry, I'm musing here myself. 


3. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Kat on Aug-17th-02 at 11:36 AM
In response to Message #2.

And he wasn't even HUNGRY, according to him.
But he sat right down and ate what Abby gave him, as soon as he arrived, and after she Told him.
???????
Why didn't he at least say, "Ah, no, I think I'd like to take you all OUT to eat".....

Also, if Abby *thought they had been poisoned*, why would she serve him their old food?
Maybe the poison thing was blown all out of proportion?

(Message last edited Aug-17th-02  11:38 AM.)


4. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by rays on Aug-17th-02 at 7:25 PM
In response to Message #3.

Of course, if Uncle John ate the same food as everyone else, then there was no toxins in these dishes. Could it be a one time source from the previous day? Those pears? The fish?
Perhaps Abby was being overly sensitive.


5. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Kat on Aug-18th-02 at 1:03 AM
In response to Message #4.

It probably was the fish.
But Abby wouldn't know that.
Why would she feed someone food that she thought was poisoned, unles maybe she didn't think it HAD been poisoned.  That maybe THAT became an exaggeration AFTER the news got out as to what Lizzie told Alice Wednesday night?  (The reason they took the stomachs, too)


6. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Kat on Aug-18th-02 at 1:07 AM
In response to Message #5.

Does anyone know what a place called "WARREN" has to do with Morse, or our story?


7. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by harry on Aug-18th-02 at 10:41 AM
In response to Message #6.

Morse had an uncle, Charles Morse, who resided in Warren, R.I.  According to Rebello, (page 75-76) Uncle John lived with him a year and a half in 1890-1891.

The niece that Uncle Morse drove to the Borden farm in Swansea, he picked up at the train station in Warren. From the Evening-Standard, August 5, 1892, page 7:

"She says," was the rejoinder, "that you met her in Warren and drove her to Swanzey."
"Ah, that is so.  I did," said Mr. Morse.  "I saw her for just a moment or so."

On page 4 of that same issue there is further reference to Warren:

"About two years ago he (Morse) came East with a large number of horses of his own raising, and after disposing of many of these animals at Warren, R.I., where he has an uncle, he made his appearance at Padanaram.  There he disposed of the remainder of the horses, and about a year ago took up his residence at the house of Mr. Davis." 

So he had at least an uncle and possibly a niece who resided in Warren. It looks about 10-15 miles west of Fall River across Mt. Hope bay on the attached map.

(Message last edited Aug-18th-02  11:16 AM.)


8. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Susan on Aug-18th-02 at 4:33 PM
In response to Message #5.

All I could find out was that Lizzie was the only one who had mentioned poison.  To Alice Russell and Mrs. Churchill.  Dr. Bowen isn't questioned about it at the trial as far as I can see, am I looking in the wrong spot?  Was he ever asked if Abby came over with the fear of poisoning, or, is it all Lizzie's invention? 


9. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by diana on Aug-18th-02 at 5:09 PM
In response to Message #8.

Susan, Dr. Bowen mentions it in his inquest testimony as follows:

Q.  You had not been called that week to the family?
A.  No Sir, I had not been called. I went over to see them. The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o'clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisoned. I told her to come in. She sat down, and she said the night before about nine o'clock she and her husband commenced to vomit, and vomitted for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.

Q.  What morning was this?
A.  Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker's white bread, and she had heard of baker's cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit.


10. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Kat on Aug-18th-02 at 6:52 PM
In response to Message #9.

WOW you guys!
I could get USED to this!!!!

I ask a couple questions, go to bed, get a nice 8 hours sleep  and come back to find everyone has been busy coming up with GREAT ANSWERS!!!

Thank you guys!  How cool!

I've got a big storm coming.  Hope to comment later(?)


11. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Susan on Aug-19th-02 at 1:24 AM
In response to Message #9.

Thanks, Diana, I skipped the Inquest Testimony.  So, Abby did think she was being poisoned.  And yet, she offered food to John Morse that she thought had poisoned her and Andrew.  Perhaps Dr. Bowen got rid of Abby's fears and told her there was no poison, probably the fish you ate.  Otherwise, I can't see how she could have served a guest possibly poisoned food, unless, she hated John Morse that much. 


12. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Kat on Aug-19th-02 at 4:08 AM
In response to Message #11.

From the Inquest testimony I never had the impression that Abby thought she Had Been Poisoned, as opposed to using the phrase of being poisoned as meaning something eaten has poisoned her, made her sick.  (Especially from Diana's quote)

They can only offer Morse what food they thought did not make them sick, right?
Otherwise they're all nuts.
Anyway, Andrew was at the table, too.  I think your first impression may be right, Susan, in that Abby's fears were put to rest prior to her offering their guest food.

(But I DO question Morse's judgement in this matter...I mean, really!  Would YOu eat there...?) 

(Message last edited Aug-19th-02  4:17 AM.)


13. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Kat on Aug-19th-02 at 4:35 AM
In response to Message #7.

I begin to think our Lizzie gets around more than we know.
There were the rumors (McHenry of all people) that Lizzie visited a lawyer about inheritence in Providence.  (Knowlton Papers, not proven)
And weren't there rumors of another lawyer visit in the papers...in fact I believe it was reported that she had to RETURN (to someplace away from Fall River) to hear the findings of an attorney, given time to look this up?  I think that was not Mass., either. (Not proven).
She DID go to New Bedford...she did make a day trip with her hostess & friend to Westport, and at some point in time made a day trip to Marion.

SO, I wonder why Morse would be asked if he and LIZZIE had been to Warren?

(Message last edited Aug-19th-02  4:36 AM.)


14. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by rays on Aug-19th-02 at 3:50 PM
In response to Message #13.

As I remember it, Lizzie did NOT go to a lawyer in Providence.
Being clever like her Dad, she may have bought a ticket to Providence, then got another ticket to New Haven Conn to see that lawyer about the inheritance laws. Very clever behavior!

I've heard that if you want to visit someone clandestinely, you at least one block away, then walk back the way you came and watch to see who's following you. If your car is later spotted, there will be many houses to investigate. Unless they have an idea of a suspect.


15. "Re: MORE MORSE MUSINGS"
Posted by Kat on Aug-20th-02 at 6:07 AM
In response to Message #12.

More on 'poison'
From the Inquest
Alice Russell
Pg. 148:

A:...I remember Mrs. Churchill saying "O, Mrs. Borden" this way.  Whatever she said or did gave me that impression that she had gone too.  [Mrs. Borden had died].  I did not then know either of them were murdered.  I supposed it was from this impression of the poison that I had had in my mind.
Q:  When did you first learn that they were murdered?
A:  ...her Uncle came in.
Q:  That is Morse?
A:  Yes, Sir,  And something he said about their being murdered, and looked up to her, than it dawned on my mind that it was cold blooded murder.  That is the first idea that I had that it was murder.

--This leaves the impression that even after Lizzie's visit to Alice Wednesday night, voicing 'gloom & doom' and mentioning the word poison, Alice still did not connect the deaths to murder.  That implies that 'poison' did not mean, to her, an attempt at a violent assault, but had her thinking more in terms of accidental or of a summer illness.  Maybe Dr. Bowen thought similarly?



 

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