Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: Coming Out From The Privy...

1. "Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jun-28th-02 at 7:28 PM

In the Privy, transcriptions of Knowlton's notes as to Trial have given some continuity to events after the murders that is intruiging...Lizzie's behavior in particular.

-"Bowen told Lizzie to go to her room...directly after he saw Mrs. B".
-Mrs. Churchill "never saw tears"    351
-When Mrs. Churchill first saw Lizzie she"Thought they were sick"      357
-Churchill "had talk with Jennings,[Knowlton speculates]...  Probably told him it was just not the dress."   371

-Lizzie "sent Alice out (of her room) to get undertaker".   383
-When Alice returned to Lizzie's room:  "came back & dress changed, coming out of Emma's room."     383
-After the door had been opened by police between the elder Bordens and Lizzie's bedroom, "Lizzie screwed (the hook) in again."     386
-"Went down cellar with Alice...(the victim's) clothes were there, & Lizzie went into the wash room (where those bloody clothes were stored).     387-8.
-Lizzie went back to cellar while Alice was otherwise occupied, and was out of Alice's sight for about 15 or 20 minutes...Lizzie must have gone down the "front way"...and Alice didn't know of that second cellar trip.   (388-90)

Sunday Lizzie burns a dress.
All of these actions seem suspicious.
The above implies Lizzie made sure no one was with her when she changes her dress.
AND we eventually have the mysterious BUNDLE in the bottom of Emma's closet to account for.
AND why is Lizzie getting her change of clothing from Emma's room, when her dresses are stored in the hall closet?  (This is implied by her coming out of that room tying her belt...)
AND why did she put her lock back on her bedroom door?  (the hook)...
AND what did she do in the cellar ?

[Note:  The phrases above that are in quotes are Quotes of Knowlton's NOTES]



(Message last edited Jun-28th-02  7:33 PM.)


2. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by augusta on Jun-29th-02 at 1:46 PM
In response to Message #1.

Did anyone ask Lizzie what she did during that second trip to the basement that night?  Did she deny going?  Only one officer saw her, Alice didn't even know Lizzie had gone a second time (maybe Lizzie just didn't want to disturb Alice and used the front stairs) - it would have been just Lizzie's word against the policeman's. 

I have thought it odd, too, that Lizzie screwed that lock in right away.  But maybe she saw the house filling up with people and wanted to keep her privacy as best she could.  Or maybe she was rattled and just did it to put it back the way it was. 

Getting changed in Emma's room has bothered me.  Wasn't Dr. Bowen in Lizzie's room at that time?  Maybe she just stepped in there to change.

I cannot believe that no one checked out the 'bundle' in Emma's closet.  Say not so.


3. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jun-29th-02 at 10:15 PM
In response to Message #2.

Apparently No ONE was with Lizzie when she changed her dress.  I just checked Alice & Bowen.  Bowen says he sent Lizzie up stairs with Alice...then...we know Alice got sent down stairs about the *fool errand*.

Stef asked last night if Lizzie still had her period at that time, that might necessitate her 2nd private visit to the cellar?  A question is asked of Alice about going down to the cellar the first time together, "For some purpose connected with her sickmess?"  Alice replied that they were just emptying some wash water.
Was Lizzie still having her period Thursday night?


4. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by augusta on Jun-30th-02 at 10:45 AM
In response to Message #3.

I was in error in my prior post.  Lizzie always used the front stairs to go from her room downstairs, didn't she? 

I think she was not having her fleas on the day before the murders.  I had thought years ago that that was why she was 'sick' and in her room most of the day, but that wasn't so.  I'm guessing she was thru with her fleas on Tuesday, but I'm not sure. 

If she was done with it by then, why in the heck were those buckets of 'rags' still hanging around?  It is unbelievable today to know that the bucket(s) were given only a slight looking over, with everyone just accepting the flea story. 


5. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Susan on Jun-30th-02 at 3:46 PM
In response to Message #4.

Well, not to get indelicate here for the men's sake, but, since the Borden house was mostly a household full of women in close proximity to one another, would they all not be on the same cycle?  I've had, at one time, 2 female roommates and after a time we were all on the same cycle!  So, if our Miss Lizzie had her period, that would mean that Bridget would also have hers and for all we know, even Emma over in Fairhaven, if she hadn't reached menopause yet!  I bet no man would ever think to check out thattheory!  So, alas, no one ever asked Bridget if she had "fleas" or Emma for that matter.  I believe if we could find the answer to that, we would know immediately if she was, or how big of a liar Lizzie was. 


6. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jun-30th-02 at 8:39 PM
In response to Message #5.

I believe Lizzie mostly used the front stairs.  I suppose old habits may *die hard*.  I remember you, Augusta, as being our expert(?) on Lizzie's *flea's*?  How would we find out?

As to the Alpha Female syndrome, yes, Susan, you're right about synchronizing periods.  BUT...I've found that I may be Alpha, and I may be so Regular, that others SYNC with ME for only a short time, then due to their irregularity, the pattern is thrown off.  A dominant female who is regular like clock-work can not influence others to the extent that THEY then become *regular*, if it is not their body's habit.  In my experience...
And it seems as if more females ARE irregular, than Not...

That was a really interesting concept though.  It still could be so, if all were normal  & Regular.


7. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Susan on Jul-1st-02 at 12:35 AM
In response to Message #6.

I guess that I may be an exception to that rule, I'm like clockwork to a point.  Maybe I was the Alpha in my roommate situation, I don't know?  I can vividly remember us all bringing home quantities of chocolate at the same time and it was, "Oh no, not you too!  You're premenstrual right now?!"

Anyway, I wish there was some way that we could check into the theory.  Who do you think would have been the Alpha female in the Borden house?  Did I even need to ask?    Oh, this will drive me crazy, not knowing!  And it being such a secretive thing in Victorian times, it was delved into even less.  Any ideas on the Borden household "fleas", Augusta?


8. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by augusta on Jul-1st-02 at 10:22 AM
In response to Message #7.

Gee, I'm not an expert on Lizzie's fleas.  But it was covered on another thread, perhaps another board, and it was figured out when she was 'on' and when she was 'off'.

I don't think any of the others in the household were having their fleas then.  I think it would have come out.  Only Lizzie said she was having hers. 

About the bucket of 'rags' in the kitchen ... Andrew lived in the house, too.  Even in modern times, I would never have let my father see anything like that - or even let him know I was having fleas.  It seems highly contradictory that it's such a hush hush subject, then there's this sickening gross bucket right in the kitchen where Andrew could see it.


9. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by edisto on Jul-1st-02 at 11:28 AM
In response to Message #8.

Can someone tell me where to find the information that Lizzie's menstrual pads were kept in a bucket in the kitchen?  I thought the bucket was in the cellar - in fact, in proximity to where Lizzie went that night when she visited the cellar alone.  This was brought up on the other board, and I researched it and couldn't find anything about the pail being in the kitchen.  I don't recall that anyone provided a source for the information.


10. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by harry on Jul-1st-02 at 11:41 AM
In response to Message #9.

I don't know whether the menstrual pads were in Lizzie's slop bucket but this is from Bridget's testimony at the trial (page 224):

Q.  About how long was it after Mr. Morse went that Miss Lizzie Borden came?
A.  I don't know how long it was. It was no more than five minutes, I don't think. I don't remember how the time was.

Q.  When she came, into which room did she come? Where did you first see her?
A.  The kitchen.

Q.  From what room did she come?
A.  From the sitting-room.

Q.  What did she do?
A.  She came through the kitchen and she left down the slop pail, and I asked her what did she want for breakfast. She said she didn't know as she wanted any breakfast, but she guessed she would have something, she would have some coffee and cookies.

This may be the source of that information.


11. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Susan on Jul-1st-02 at 11:48 AM
In response to Message #10.

So, Lizzie may have set it down, had breakfast and then went down cellar to dump it in the water closet.  But, thats still pretty gross!  Why not dump the slops first or take out the menstrual rags first, wash her hands and then eat some breakfast. 


12. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by nanajan on Jul-1st-02 at 9:25 PM
In response to Message #9.

From Witness Statement of Wm Medley 8/4/92
"I inquired [of Lizzie] about some cloths which looked, to me like small towels, they were covered with blood, and in a pail half filled with water, and in the wash cellar.  She said that was all right; she had told the Doctor all about that.  I then asked her how long the pail and its contents had been there; and she said three or four days.  I asked the Doctor about it, and he said it had been explained to him, and was all right.
      I then had a talk with Bridget about the pail and its contents.  She said she had not noticed the pail until that day, and it could not have been there two days before,or she would have seen it, and put the contents in the wash, as that was the day she had done the washing."

The Doctor in question is not named.  Bowen?
Who do you believe?  Lizzie or Bridget?

I, too, have wondered if fleas were in sync. Bridget's sick headache could have been a migraine.  I have read that she was a headache sufferer. Migraines can be linked to changes in hormore levels. I, personally, almost always got a "sick headache" along with my period. Vomiting is also a common side effect of migraines.



13. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jul-1st-02 at 10:03 PM
In response to Message #12.

Well, Bridget is off by one day in determining her wash day.

Wash day is Monday, so I start from Monday.
So let's see...
If Lizzie had her period, according to Bridget, it wasn't until the 4th that SHE was aware of the slop bucket.   Thursday.

Lizzie would at LEAST be having a period for real (not just made up) for there to be blood noticed in the pail Thursday morning?
WaS there blood noticed in the pail Thurday morning?
Or blood not noticed at all until The cellar was checked after the murders?
After checking what you all have examined so far, it doesn't seem as if Bridget noticed particularly the CONTENTS of the pail as it was temporarily in the kitchen (?).  [See Harry post]

So maybe Lizzie didn't even HAVE her period...it was an excuse for blood to be found.

BUT, wouldn't the officials have the jail matron check her next month's cycle, at least, to verify that statement by Lizzie with crucial blood info?


14. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Susan on Jul-1st-02 at 11:18 PM
In response to Message #13.

Nanajan, you poor dear, I know just what you go through, my old boss had severe migraines and basically had to just lie down with the blinds closed with a cold cloth on her head.  And sometimes the nausea got the better of her.

Kat, I think that ol' Doc Bowen just took Lizzie's word for it that she had her period.  Somehow I just can't see him giving her a pelvic exam to confirm it one way or another.

And, since the officials were all men in a time when menstruation was a taboo subject, I think they also just took Lizzie's word for it.  I would imagine for alot of men that it was a woman's thing and a mystery at that and they having "neither the cunning or deftness of the sex" would probably not have thought too hard on it. 


15. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jul-2nd-02 at 12:35 AM
In response to Message #14.

We've got the whole darn STATE believing it, not just Bowen.  I would think  (ie: HOPE) that someone verified this menstrual event, at minimum by having the matron make a note of Lizzie's NEXT cycle.

A Trial for murder rested on such evidence.  I don't think they were THAT squeamish...They did mention it in court.  Once it's mentioned there are no restraints under law as to follow-up questions.

So they probably KNEW, somehow...(?)


16. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Susan on Jul-2nd-02 at 2:32 AM
In response to Message #15.

Kat, just checked the Trial Volumes 1 and 2.  Nothing in 1, in 2 the word menstrual is mentioned all of 3 times!  Twice when Professor Edward S. Wood is on the stand:

Page 1021/i43
Questioning Prof. Wood on Lizzie's white skirt....

Q. Are you able to say that that was not a spot of blood which might have gotten on from the menstrual flow of the woman?
A. No, sir, I am not.

Q. It would be entirely consistent with that, would it?
Page 1022/i44
A. Yes, sir, it may have been menstrual blood, or may not, so far as I can determine.

And the only other time it is brought up is when George Robinson gives the closing argument for the defedant:

Page 1042/i664

I forebear to allude to what is proved in this case, Miss Borden's illness, monthly illness, at that time, and to tell you or remind you that Prof. Wood said he would not undertake to say that that blood was not the menstrual blood.  You know the facts.  I need not give them in detail.  you know enough in your own households; you know all about it.  (But, did they?-Susan)  You are men, and human.  You have your feelings about it.  I am not going to drag them up, but you must not lose sight of these things.

So, they couldn't even tell if the blood on Lizzie's petticoat was hers or if it was menstrual.  And, from what I see, they just perpetuate the story that she told them, that she had her period at that time.  Plus, how would the Matron know for sure?  Lizzie had her sister and girlfriends visit while she was in prison, anyone of them could have brought her "rags" and removed them from the prison.  It doesn't sound like any of them were closely monitered.  Just my humble opinion and 2 cents. 


17. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by edisto on Jul-2nd-02 at 10:40 AM
In response to Message #10.

I never considered Lizzie's bringing her slop pail into the kitchen and "leaving it down" as evidence that Lizzie's menstrual pads were actually KEPT in a pail in the kitchen.  The reason is that sanitary napkins in that day weren's disposable.  Lizzie probably wouldn't have put them into her slop pail to be dumped into the water closet, privy or back yard.  She would have put them into the wash for poor Bridget to launder and return to her.  I think that bucket in the cellar was probably kept full of cold water, and the napkins were put into it to soak until the next washday.  That was the bucket that had been observed in the wash cellar.  How Lizzie got the used napkins down to the wash cellar is the real puzzle.  Maybe she had a special "slop pail" just for that purpose, and maybe it's the one that was set down in the kitchen.  I recall using a covered bucket of water (kept in a bathroom) to soak nondisposable diapers when my kids were little.  Of course, those were laundered on a daily basis, but that was because we had slightly better laundry methods than the Bordens did (only very slightly).


18. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jul-2nd-02 at 6:45 PM
In response to Message #16.

Dr. Dolan Testifies - Preliminary Hearing
Questioned by Mr. Adams
Bloody Cloths
Pg. 188 -189

Q:  Do you remember a pail in the cellar?

A:  Yes Sir

Q:  And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?

A:  Yes Sir, three.

Q:  Did you examine them?

A:  I examined them casually.

Q:  Did you take them?

A:  No sir.

Q:  Were they taken by anybody?

A:  By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.

Q:  What was subsequently done with them, if you know?

A:  Nothing;  they were left down stairs in the marshal's office, and nothing further done with them.

Q:  Did you examine them?

A:  Yes Sir

Q:  Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this case?

A:  Yes Sir

MR. KNOWLTON:  "We claim nothing at present."

(Message last edited Jul-2nd-02  6:45 PM.)


19. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jul-2nd-02 at 7:02 PM
In response to Message #18.

Trial Page 550 / i571

Q.  You spoke of finding a pail near the foot of the stairs---I think you did, as you went down,---didn't you?
A.  I did not. There was one there; I did not testify to that, I think.

Q.  There was one there?
A.  There was in the wash cellar.

Q.  There was one there?
A.  In the wash cellar.

Q.  There were clothes in it?
A.  There were.

MR. ROBINSON. It is agreed that that pail contained the napkins which had been worn within a day or two by the defendant,---the ordinary monthly sickness---and as to that fact that is all we propose to put in.  We do not care to go into the details.  It is also agreed that the sickness ended Wednesday night.

That is all, Mr. Fleet.


20. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jul-2nd-02 at 7:36 PM
In response to Message #19.

DOHERTY. Trial, 596

Q.  You went into all the rooms you could get into and went down cellar?
A.  Yes.

Q.  You found nothing or nobody?
A.  We found nothing or nobody.

Q.  You went down cellar: Tell us what you did down there.
A.  We went down cellar, we went into two or three dark places, wood or coal rooms or something. We separated. I got over near the sink and I noticed a pail and some towels.

Q.  Pass from those. 
A.  Mr. Mullaly was looking at something; Icame and looked over his shoulder; he had a hatchet in his hands.


Medley, Trial, 706

Q.  You went in the house?
A.  Yes, sir, after going in the back entry I went to go down in the cellar, and while going down in the cellar officer Mullaly, I think, was on the back cellar stairs, or near there, and I saw this pail, in the wash cellar and called his attention to it, and that is all I did there.

Q.  You did not continue down in the cellar?
A.  No, sir.


Joseph Hyde, Trial, 847

Q.  You had been in the house before?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  That day?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Had you seen that pail there with the cloths in it?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Where was that standing?
A.  That pail, when I see it, it was standing on the south side of the wash cellar.

Q.  Well, that is pretty near where you were?
A.  Pretty near where I was.

Q.  And that pail was pretty near the sink, wasn't it?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And you saw what was in that pail, didn't you?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  I don't mean to go into it. You saw it?
A.  Yes, sir; that was my impression.

Q.  Well, then she took the light and went upstairs?
A.  Yes, sir.






21. "Re: Coming Out From The Privy..."
Posted by Kat on Jul-2nd-02 at 8:05 PM
In response to Message #20.

Trip To Cellar
Joseph Hyde
Trial: 834+

Q.  Where were you standing when you saw her?
A.  I was standing on the east end of the house.

Q.  Will you describe what you saw them do?
A.  Miss Lizzie and Miss Russell came out of the sitting room. Miss Russell was carrying a small hand lamp.  Miss Lizzie had a toilet pail. They came through the kitchen into the entryway, down the cellar stairs, into the cellar. Miss Russell, she stood at the foot of the steps with a lamp. Miss Lizzie went along the north side of the cellar to the water closet. She came from the water closet into the wash cellar, to the sink, and I heard something that sounded like water when she got there. She returned from there to where Miss Russell stood and they came upstairs, went back through the sitting room---through the kitchen into the sitting room.

Q.  About what time in the evening was that?
A.  That would be about fifteen minutes of nine.

Q.  Did you see either of those persons later than that?
A.  In a few minutes after, perhaps ten or fifteen minutes, Miss Lizzie came out of the same door, of the sitting room door, into the kitchen, in the same way, down into the cellar. She came into the wash cellar, and she puts her lamp on to a table on the west end of the cellar. She comes over to the east end of the house, where the sink is, and stooped down opposite to the sink. What she did I don't know.

Q.  Was any one with her at that time?
A.  She was all alone.

Q.  How long did she stay in the cellar at that time.
A.  It didn't take her above two minutes before she went upstairs again.

Q.  At that time was there anything else in that wash cellar?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  What?
A.  There was the clothes that had come off Mr. and Mrs. Borden.

Q.  You stayed there all night, did you?
A.  I stayed there until about eleven o'clock.

Q.  About how long was this second visit to the cellar after the visit in company with Miss Russell.
A.  I should say about ten or fifteen minutes.
..............

....Q.  (By Mr. Robinson.)  I think you said that on coming down stairs, these two ladies, together, Miss Russell stood just inside, three or four feet from the bottom of the steps?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And Miss Borden passed right into the wash room cellar?
A.  Into the water closet.

Q.  In the first place she came into the cellar, you said, and then went into what?
A.  The water closet, before she went into the wash cellar.

Q.  That is, she kept right along in the track of the staircase?
A.  On the north side of the cellar.

Q.  Could you see her as she went in there?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And you were then on the east side of the house looking in at that window there, or had you gone around?
A.  I was on the east end then.

Q.  You could see right across through the doorway, right in?
A.  Right in to the water closet.

Q.  And you said what she did, which was to empty the slops?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Then she came out?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Came along toward the wash cellar door?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And passed Miss Russell?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Miss Russell stood there holding the light.  She went over to the sink in the corner?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  That would be the southeast corner?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And there rinsed the pail and put in some water.  You heard the water?
A.  I heard the water.

Q.  Then did she go back to the closet again with it?
A.  She went back upstairs then with Miss Russell.

Q.  Didn't go back to the water closet with it again?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Was anything else done at that time?
A.  No, sir.
.................
844+

...Q:  Now about fifteen minutes after you say you saw Miss Lizzie come into the room?
A: About fifteen minutes after that I saw Miss Lizzie come the same way.
..................

...Q.  Where were those clothes you spoke about?
A.  They were on the south side of the wash cellar.

Q.  Right about where you were then?
A.  Almost opposite to where I stood. Saying the window was there, the clothes was right in the cellar, right where that radiator is there.  (Indicating.)

Q.  When you say "opposite", you mean down against the very wall where you were standing?
A.  Yes, pretty near the wall, not exactly to the wall.

845+

Q.  Right down in one pile---these clothes?
A.  One pile; yes, sir.

Q.  How far were they from the sink?
A.  Quite a ways; I should think five or six feet.

Q.  Back from the sink?
A.  Back from the sink.

Q.  Which corner did the sink stand in?
A.  The sink stands in the southeast corner.

Q.  You stood right on the south side?
A.  I stood at the southeast corner window.

Q.  The very first window?
A.  The very first window.

Q.  You were looking right in onto that sink?
A.  No, sir; you couldn't see on to the sink exactly. You can't see right on to the sink through that window. You can see anyone standing front of the sink. Saying that was the sink (indicating) you could see anyone standing there, but you couldn't see the sink. You could see the person standing there.

Q.  What did she do with her light when she came in?
A.  She went on the west side of the wash cellar and put it on to a stand.

Q.  The west?
A.  The west.

Q.  The opposite side, towards Second Street?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And sat it right down there?
A.  And put it down there.
.......

...Q.  She went over to the sink?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And you didn't see her do anything?
A.  Only I see her stoop down by the sink, stoop right over by the sink.

Q.  Those clothes were back quite a distance?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Did you see her open the door under the sink?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Are you sure about that?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Do you recollect about that now?
A.  Yes, sir; I never see her open any door.

Q.  You didn't see her do anything, did you?
A.  No, sir; only stoop down.

Q.  Do you know whether there is a door under it or not?
A.  I wouldn't swear but I believe there is. I was in that cellar once and I believe there is a door to the sink.

Q.  A door that opens and swings around?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Which way does it swing?
A.  I wouldn't swear.

Q.  Don't you remember taking hold of the door and opening it?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  You stood right there at that window so you could look right down, and you couldn't see the sink quite?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  The same as looking in that window?  (Indicating)
A.  Yes, sir; the sink was right there.

Q.  You could see her just as well---you were not more than four or five feet from her?
A.  Perhaps four or five feet from her.

Q.  Right there; and you wouldn't tell me but what the window was open all the time?
A.  I couldn't swear.

Q.  You couldn't swear to that?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  And there was nothing in your way from seeing everything, was there?
A.  Nothing in my way. I couldn't see the sink; I could see her.

Q.  You didn't see her do anything except you say she stooped down?
A.  No, sir; that is all I see.

Q.  How long did she stay there?
A.  Oh, she wasn't there a minute.

Q.  Half a minute, was she?
A.  She wasn't there a minute, anyhow.

Q.  You had been in the house before?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  That day?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Had you seen that pail there with the cloths in it?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Where was that standing?
A.  That pail, when I see it, it was standing on the south side of the wash cellar.

Q.  Well, that is pretty near where you were?
A.  Pretty near where I was.

Q.  And that pail was pretty near the sink, wasn't it?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And you saw what was in that pail, didn't you?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  I don't mean to go into it. You saw it?
A.  Yes, sir; that was my impression.

Q.  Well, then she took the light and went upstairs?
A.  Yes, sir.




(Message last edited Jul-2nd-02  8:07 PM.)


22. "I've Got One More But You're All Gonna Be SICK of Topic!"
Posted by Kat on Jul-2nd-02 at 8:37 PM
In response to Message #21.


23. "Re: I've Got One More But You're All Gonna Be SICK of Topic!"
Posted by Susan on Jul-2nd-02 at 9:04 PM
In response to Message #22.

No, Kat, its great.  But, you see how gingerly they treat the idea of menstruation and Lizzie's bloody cloths, they just don't want to go into it and discuss it at length.  Just, did you see them, yes, good, lets not talk about them.  In other words, there were bloody cloths there, good, they could be from Lizzie's monthly illness or from her wiping blood off of herself, lets not go there. 


24. "Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Kat on Jul-3rd-02 at 1:21 AM
In response to Message #23.

I have at least one more post about this.  I'm past the point of determining whether it was discussed or taboo, and am now more interested in combining all the menstrual info in one place on this thread so we know where to find it for future use.  AN ARCHIVE OF MENSTRUAL TESTIMONY!

I guess that's what happens when the men-folk all go off for a time, leaving the Forum temporarily in OUR hands!  Yup.

(Message last edited Jul-3rd-02  1:32 AM.)


25. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Kat on Jul-3rd-02 at 1:30 AM
In response to Message #24.

ROBINSON CHARGE TO THE JURY
Trial
Pg.1693+

..."Miss Russell said, You had better go [to Marion on vacation], and she [Lizzie] finally said she would. She goes down there [to Alice's] and talks it over. Naturally she would. Miss Russell had visited there and told her all about it. Those were indications, they say that crime was in her [Lizzie's] heart. There are a good many people, we may say that believe in premonitions, and things will happen sometime for which we see no adequate cause for predicting and often the succeeding events happen through a mere coincidence, there is no connection between the two, but an event will so happen as to seem to furnish a connection. I do not say it is one way or the other. It is not for me to declare, but you will recollect that Miss Lizzie's illness was continuing at that time, and we know from sad experience that there is many a woman at such a time as that is all unbalanced, her disposition disturbed, her mind unsettled for the time being and everything is out of sorts and out of joint and she really is disabled for a period of time. Now that appears to have been the case at this time. It is a common fact and a common explanation in every day life and you cannot overlook it.

There was talk about poison and poison was feared in the family because all had been made sick. Then they say for some reason, I don't know what, that Miss Lizzie went down stairs in the cellar that Thursday night. Well, she did with Miss Russell. But what did they do? They did what a good many of us have to do at home. They did something about the house. There had been people there examining the room and looking over the bodies and there was water in the pitcher up in her room and people had been washing there during the day and Mrs. Holmes said, "If I should stay there all night I should want the slop pail emptied." These two young women went downstairs. You will be inclined to say there was not any criminal act in that, especially as Miss Lizzie took Miss Russell with her and everything was seen that they did. They say after that Miss Russell returned and Lizzie came with the light all round and sat it on a table in the lower wash room and went over and stooped down near the sink. I will not say she did not stay there all the time,---stooped down, but she really did straighten up at length and get back up stairs and took the light with her. What of it? What of it? They say that those clothes which were taken off the dead bodies were lying there in a pile.  Very well. Take it for what it is worth. But that house was surrounded by policemen and officer Hyde was there and Miss Lizzie had a full grown kerosene lamp in her hand and the windows were all open with ample opportunity for observers outside to see in and those within the house knew that policemen were all round so that there was nothing concealed. Now a person who is going to do anything to cover up crime will not carry an electric light with him. You don't usually travel round when contemplating crime, in that way. The criminal goes into the dark to do his dark deed. Miss Lizzie did not see anybody though they say Officer Ferguson was in front, but he is not brought forward, and if he were he could not see through two high board partitions. That would tax the energy and perspicacity of even a Fall River policeman. Where is Ferguson?  He is not here, so he did not see anything.

Taking again her own sickness at that time, the fact that that pail was standing  right by the sink---I am not going to make any suggestions, but I am quite certain that you will guess what she was there for. I will leave it there..."



(Message last edited Jul-3rd-02  1:36 AM.)


26. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Kat on Jul-3rd-02 at 2:29 AM
In response to Message #25.

Preliminary Hearing
Doherty
Pg. 339

Q:  [In cellar] Did you see Mr. Mullaly find the axes and hatchets?
A:  Not when he found them.

Q:  You saw him reaching up for them?
A:  Yes.  I turned to the left, and went over to the sink and I looked at this pail that was spoken of the other day.

Q:  Which you do not rely upon now?
A:  No Sir.  Of course I called Mr. Mullaly's attention to it.  I was at that time probably 12 or 14 feet from Mullaly.  He was looking at something in his hand.  I walked over and he had a hatchet....


Preliminary
Mulally
Pg. 347- 8

Q:  Did you take any notice of the hatchets when you got them down?
A:  I did

Q:  What did you notice about them?
A:  One was larger than the other

Q:  Any thing else?
A:  On the larger one, there was a small rust spot

Q:  Anything else?
A:  That was all I noticed.  On the axes, both handles were covered with ashes

Q:  Anything else?
A:  Then while I was in the wash room, I believe it was Mr. Doherty called my attention to some cloths in a pail.

Q:  Skip them now.  You looked at them?
A:  We took them out, and looked at them, and put them back again.  No, I wont say I put them back again.

(Mr. Adams)  "You disclaim any connection?"
(Mr. Knowlton)  "For this hearing to this Court, I make no claim about those things, whatever.  I do not bind myself to any accidental future discoveries.  So far as I am at present advised, I make no claim."


--My notes in the margin at this point ask, "Are they referring to the axes and hatchets or the stuff in the pail?"  NOTE that they had been discussing AXES & HATCHETS up until the pail was brought up, and Mullaly is told "Skip them now."
So the disclaimer asked by Adams & the retort by Knowlton MAY refer to the weapons found.  This has always been confusing.  If anyone can read this section in their Prelim. and can make this point clear, I would appreciate it.
--If it is believed they have immediately reverted in their testimony to weapons, I can delete this section from our "menstrual archive".


(Message last edited Jul-3rd-02  2:35 AM.)


27. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by joe on Jul-3rd-02 at 9:33 AM
In response to Message #26.

My reading is that the hatchets and axes are what is being questioned.  It sounds as if Mullaly reached into the bucket of bloody "clothes" and "took them out and put them back again".  I doubt it!  Men don't even like to change diapers. At least not me!

So, that's why I think the subject was changed when Adams said "Skip them now" about the bloody clothes. 

On the other hand, I have no idea what the legalese is all about:
"(Mr. Adams) You disclaim any connection? (Mr. Knowlton) For this hearing to this Court, I make no claim about those things, whatever. I do not bind myself to any accidental future discoveries. So far as I am at present advised, I make no claim."


28. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by joe on Jul-3rd-02 at 9:38 AM
In response to Message #27.

BUT!  On reading that legalese again, it now appears that Adams is initiating a disclaimer that the bucket of bloody clothes and the hatchets are connected.  Knowlton says only for the present.  Maybe something will surface at a later date.  As far as Knowlton is concerned, he witholds judgment for the time being.


29. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Susan on Jul-3rd-02 at 11:47 AM
In response to Message #28.

That sounds about right to me too, Joe.  At least someone doesn't blindly believe that they are just innocent menstrual rags. 


30. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Kat on Jul-3rd-02 at 6:58 PM
In response to Message #28.

That makes sense, thanks.
I never really took the view that Knowlton was referring to BOTH the cloths & the weapons...that's a new insight.

I guess I'll leave it stand in our archive.


31. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Kat on Jul-3rd-02 at 10:50 PM
In response to Message #30.

O.K.
I'm walking and thinking...

Post #19, Robinson agree's "that the sickness ended Wednesday Night."

Post #12, Nanajan, Witness Statements, Bridget says those towels & pail were not around the wash cellar Monday (or, as she says, Tuesday), or she would have washed them.

Most female's periods last between 4 and 7 days.

I wonder what explanation Bridget came up with to help Lizzie, later...after she flubbed her lines to the initial interrorgating officer?

This is really amaturish...if Lizzie did not have a period but used that as a quick solution/explanation as to why there are B L O O D Y T O W E L S hanging around the cellar with a B U N C H O F H A T C H E T S---Jeesh, this is sounding like a cartoon....How could she get away with that?

That leads me to think someone (a doctor, a lawyer, a prosecutor, a mayor, a doctors Wife, a Warder) eventually found out the truth (that she did somehow really have a period when she claimed), just that they didn't know for sure at the time of the Prelim.  That leads me to think they did keep track of her cycle in jail and THEN became satisfied as to the *bloody truth*.  Otherwise the world has been hood-winked for 110 years over something so simple, and THAT I can''t believe.


32. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Susan on Jul-4th-02 at 2:25 PM
In response to Message #31.

But, Kat, its such an important piece of evidence, don't you think that the court would have Hannah Reagan or whomever testify in court that, yes indeed, that is when Lizzie's cycle is, I know it for a fact?  I have a feeling because of the social mores of the times that it wasn't checked into as thoroughly as it could be.  Just my humble opinion, but, I think we may have been duped!

I found this wonderful site, had no idea such a thing existed, but, it has everything you ever wanted and didn't want to know about the history (or should that be herstory?) of menstruation.

http://www.mum.org/


33. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Kat on Jul-4th-02 at 6:50 PM
In response to Message #32.

In post #29 & 30, it is agreed that someone (Mullaly, Knowlton, Adams) doesn't just blindly believe that those are just innocent menstrual rags.

Post #26, Knowlton will not stipulate as to the weapons found or the bloody rags "for THIS hearing, for THIS court."  Probably because that hearing was from August 25 to Sept 1.  He would only need a day or so after the Prelim. to find out from the Matron (who would be aware of a female prisoners *needs* and be ready to help in that regard) if Lizzie's cycle was confirmed.  Stress may have delayed onset...However, very soon he would know, and then the pail would *pale* into more or less insignificance, as they had not the science to determine co-mingled blood.  Knowlton would then have to conceed that round to the defense, and we do see the closing arguments of Robinson making a big deal over Lizzie's Illness--probably Gleefully at that.  It turned out to be something too complicated forensically for the Prosecution, and the defense got the benefit and *ran with it*! 
Because it's not made a deal out of in the records passed down to us, does not mean it wasn't a big deal at the time--for a Short time, admittedly.


34. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Susan on Jul-5th-02 at 11:48 AM
In response to Message #33.

When you put it that way, Kat, it does begin to make sense why it wasn't mentioned in a big way at the trial, good thinking!!!  I still have that little piece of me that wants some tangible evidence, but, what are you gonna' do? 


35. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by augusta on Jul-5th-02 at 7:39 PM
In response to Message #34.

On the "mum" site there's a listing for "fleas" under other names for periods.  I thought "Oh boy!  I'm finally gonna learn where it came from!" Turned out to be just a sentence about Lizzie.  Worth a  glance, tho.

There's a Victorian site about it at http://www.victoriana.com/doors/chase.html



(Message last edited Jul-5th-02  8:31 PM.)


36. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Kat on Jul-5th-02 at 10:03 PM
In response to Message #32.

I remember that "MUM" site from a year ago.
Someone obviously read posts and contributed that item about "fleas".
I know, because I went there about 6 months ago, and saw that there... and found MY FAMILY euphemism listed on there, also.  At the time,when I first brought it up, no one had ever heard of it, then it turned up on that site.  Weird.  I felt like saying,"Get your own euphemism!" to whoever took mine...


37. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Kat on Jul-5th-02 at 10:13 PM
In response to Message #35.

Cool Site, Augusta.
I've read she took drugs for bad menstrual cramps, and was one of the first pregnant patients to use chloroform during delivery.
She DEMANDED it!


38. "Re: Coming Out Of The Privy"
Posted by Susan on Jul-6th-02 at 2:48 PM
In response to Message #37.

Yes, thanks for the cool site, Augusta!  Interesting read! 



 

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