1. "Let's Play"
Posted by augusta on Jul-11th-02 at 10:09 PM

Let's pretend that Andrew didn't come home until 1:00 pm on August 4th.  What would have happened?

Hmmm.....Well, if Lizzie was doing as she planned she would be out of the house downstreet shopping for fishing lines and such, or more probably shoplifting!

Poor Bridget would possibly be down at Sargeant's looking for a sale that didn't exist as of yet, she'd probably be bewildered!  Now why would Miss Lizzie tell me of a sale thats not goin' on?  Oh, Pshaw!

That's really a complicated question but a great one.

We have to take into account the reaction of Morse, who would be back from Weybosset. Would he go out and search for Andrew? Would he search the house and stumble across Abby?

Bridget would have come down about 11:30. Would she stick around past noon waiting for Andrew?  After all it was her 1/2 day off.

Lizzie would have had to come down or risk Morse knocking at her door.

When Andrew returned he would have expected Abby to be back by then. Would they have eaten without her? Probably not.

This also extends the hours by 2 from the time Abby was killed, (approx. 9:30) from 1-1/2 to 3-1/2 hours.

If Morse left after Andrew returned and Bridget went out on her free time, that would leave Andrew in the house alone with Lizzie. The same scenario as actually happened could be repeated just at a later time. But the circumstances would point to Lizzie with even a stronger finger. She would be the only one there and the time gap would be way too long for a outsider to murder both.

Just some thoughts.

Very good thoughts, Harry!  Me poor brain isn't working too well at the moment with this fever I have, I'm all befuzzled.  But, you've given me something to think about at a more lucid moment! 

Why not ask "what if" Andy never left the house that day but stayed inside. Would he have heard Abby fall?
Would that have made a difference if Andy was waiting to meet that secret visitor - "somebody" who might do something?

I think if Andrew had stayed at home that day, which really was a possibility given that illness he'd had, Abby would not have been murdered.  It looks somewhat obvious that the murderer waited until Andrew left the house to kill her. 

He did come home earlier than expected because he wasn't quite up to par.  I wonder if that made a difference.  Hey, if he came home later as he usually did, Morse probably would have been arriving back the same time.  Hm...

If I say that Andrew wouldn't have been murdered if he had only stayed out later, that would mean the murderer was after Abby, and I don't think that was the case.  Or was it? 

Maybe 'the girls' were happy enough to get Abby out of the way.  And, given their father's age knew he wouldn't get remarried.  Maybe the target was just Abby at first, but Andrew had to be killed when he came home too early.  There was no way around it for Lizzie.  As others have said, he would have known she did it. 

I remember reading somewhere that Lizzie (?) said that her father always seen his business clients when at home between 11 and 12. If true, it would lead me to believe that it would not be that unusual for him to arrive home earlier than 11.

But since he had no apparent appointment with anyone that morning (or at least nobody came forward to tesify to it) it's a moot point.

That's right.
I was thinking, "How do we know he got home early?"

Well, from Harry's point about the meeting with clients between 11 and 12, wouldn't that mean that Andrew was home early to meet with someone and surprised Lizzie as she didn't expect him home until possibly 11:30 or so?  Or, was this the norm for him, to come home everyday around 11:00 for lunch? 

I had read it that he had come home early, but don't know where. And it doesn't mean my source was right, either.  Harry, do you have a source on his meeting business people between 11 & 12?  I had thought it was later, but I may not be correct.

I'm going to have to dig up the source of the 11 to 12 meeting time. I can't remember whether I heard it or read it. I do remember it striking me as important about this very topic.

Before I rummage through a mountain of data, can anyone else recall hearing about times?

"We have Always repeated that."..

Says the Lizzie-OD'd robot now writing this response.

Believe we have blown a fuse...

AH!  Had an idea Harry!

Ask Augusta where she read that "Andrew came home early!"? 

This isn't going to be very helpful because I can't come up with the source, either.  But I do recollect something about Andrew being "at home" to those who wished to see him on business.  And it seems like it was around that time of day, too.

I'll spend some time looking through my stuff, too -- however there's no guarantee that I won't fall into (or in front of) a whole other train of thought in the process. (Which is usually what happens to me.)

Isn't it frustrating when you know you've seen it somewhere!!!

(Message last edited Jul-16th-02  3:00 AM.)

You're SUCH a TROOPER!

When's your birthday?

You don't have to broadcast it if you don't want, but can write my lil' letterbox if you like...

Well, Edisto went off in her antibellum dress about 6 months ago to find something and she never reported back on the subject...wish I could remember what we sent her AFTER!!!

"I was born on Guy Fawkes Day", she responded cryptically.

AHA!
She said cryptically back.

The Day of Actuality

",,,Often wish to de-bunk myths and expose lies and half-truths for what they are.
...passion for soving mysteries, figuring out human puzzels...(to) reveal the truth..."

Born on your day:
Sam Shepard
Vivien Leigh
Art Garfunkel
Roy Rogers
Joel McCrea
Tatum O'Neal
Elke Sommer
Bryan Adams

Strengths:
Knowledgeable
Up-To-Date
Realistic

Meditation:
"The emptied mind is more prepared to see the truth."

I thought I'd surface long enough to give an update on my research re: Andrew being "at home" to those who wished to see him on business.  I can't find it -- is the gist of the update.  Because of the way I heard the wording in my mind (if that makes sense) I went to Lincoln -- who says: "Only a man who beneath that stubbornness was deeply worried would suddenly have BROKEN WITH CUSTOM and invited questions by going home an hour and a half too soon -- for it lacked that much to dinner time." (p.81)

But Radin says: "He [Andrew] was usually back by mid-morning". (p.53)

Neither gives a source for these statements, of course.

And my prediction about my train of thought was valid.  I became entranced with Adams's cross of Dr. Dolan. And fell deep into cross-referencing information on the waffling M.E. which is how I spent most of today. 

But I keep thinking about that idea that Andrew met with people at his house (there's lots of testimony to that effect).  And I feel certain that I did see somewhere that there was an hour set aside for this.  Was it in connection with someone pacing outside waiting to see him? -- who left when the furor started on that fateful day?

Harry, are you still trying to find this? 

When you said "lots of testimony" as to Andrew expecting to be home for business deals in the A.M, do you mean specifically TEStimony...as in under oath?

I'm trying to look up stuff, too.
I thought his business associates..the boys downtown...might know.
Checked Trial for the word "Business" and there is not a reference to Andrew's "business" at hame.
Then checked Prelim., and specifically looked up those banking guys...
Hart..nope
Burrell...nope
Everet Cook...nope...then I thought!  AHA!  Charles Cook would know...nope
I even checked Mrs. Dr. Kelly, as a neighbor she may have noted Andrew's routines...nope.

I did get a little sidetracked, but I got out ALIVE!!!

The only thing I could come up with so far was in Lizzie's Inquest testimony where she talks of Andrew having a man in who would like to rent a store from him.  The only thing that Lizzie is sure of is that it was 2 weeks before the murders, she can't state the day or date and doesn't give the time of day either. 

Kat, I am so sorry that you were led on a wild goose chase because I used the wrong word.  You're absolutely right -- I should never had said "testimony" when I was referring to books about the case. 

Susan's post about Lizzie's Inquest testimony is, of course, the item that comes up most frequently. 

And I'm sure you remember Fleet's trial testimony: "I then asked her [Lizzie] if there had been anyone around this morning whom she would suspect of having done the killing of these people, and she said that she had not seen any one, but about nine o'clock that morning a man came to the door and was talking with her father.  I asked her what they were talking about, and she said she thought they were talking about a store, and he spoke like an Englishman."  (Fleet then goes on to relate the other incident that Alice Russell reminded Lizzie about-- involving the angry man coming to the house within the past two weeks).

In "Forty Whacks" (p.6) Kent: "It is a well known fact that Mrs. Borden always left the room when her husband was talking business with anyone." (Source Aug 4 Daily Herald).

And I finally found the piece I was looking for! In Masterton:

"Andrew Borden ordinarily "held court" at his home between 11:00 A.M. and noon; anyone wanting to see him on business could call during that period." (p. 219)

And later:
"Clegg first went to see Andrew Borden at 92 Second Street on Tuesday, August 2.  Their first meeting apparently took place between 11 A.M. and noon, when Andrew was ordinarily "at home" for business purposes." (p.232)

The only source for this seems to be drawn from Clegg's trial testimony.  I'll have to review that, I guess.

(I was beginning to think I was losing my mind altogether!)

Now, see I made a mistake and left out CLEGG, in MY POST!
I  HAD looked him up at the trial!

I had a suspicion that it would be Masterton!  AHA!  GREAt work!
BUT!  we still needed to verify Masterton, right?  Since he didn't always verify himself, to US at least...  I knew in my bones we'd be looking to testimony sooner or later so I went for it.  I merely wanted the sematics verified, but it was still worth it to check.  It will always be worth it to check.  Don't think twice about it.

I was puzzeled at the Clegg testimony.  It didn't seem to imply to me what it implied to Masterton.  If you check it, I would be interested in knowing your thoughts.

I agree.  Clegg's trial testimony only indicates that he visited Andrew at his home regarding business on the two days prior to the murders.  But no specific time is given.  Although in the Preliminary Hearing (p. 213) Clegg says: " I knew I had got to see Mr. Borden that forenoon .. [referring to August 4]....I was actually on the lookout for him ...I looked across the street for him, and saw him opposite my store".  Which seems to show that Andrew was, indeed, a man of regular habits.

I wonder where Harry saw that time mentioned?  I seem to remember him saying that he hadn't read Masterton -- so perhaps there is another source reiterating the 11 am - noon time. 

Masterton ends his book with an invitation to sent comments to:
William L. Masterton
1 Ridge Road
Storrs, CT  06268

So, if any of us were zealous enough, I guess we could write and ask him the source of his claim that Andrew was normally at home between 11 and 12.

Just "re"-located one of the places I read the item about 11 to 12 being Andrew's time to conduct business. It was in the New Bedford Evening Standard newspaper. As with all sources weigh the value of what is being said. Here's the entire article:

THE SISTER'S THEORY.

Think Mr. and Mrs. Borden Were Killed
by Some Strange Man.

Fall River, Aug. 29. --- Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie have a theory in regard to the murder of their parents.  It is a very unsatisfactory one, but it is, nevertheless, a theory.  Lizzie and Emma and Mr. Morse are absolutely certain that Lizzie did not commit the crime.  They think that some strange man killed Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
They state that Mr. Borden always received his business callers between 11 and 12 o'clock in the morning.  He always answered the door bell between these hours, they say.  They think that the assassin entered the house between 9 and 10 o'clock, probably, and that he came in search of Mr. Borden.
This man may have wandered through the rooms downstairs in search of his intended victim, and, not finding him, have gone to the upper story by the front way.  Then, hearing a noise that disturbed him, he sought a hiding place in the clothes closet at the head of the stairs, just opposite the entrance to Lizzie's room and near the door leading into the spare room.
This is as far as the family theory goes.  The members of the household do not attempt to explain how or when Mrs. Borden was killed; neither can they offer any reason why Mr. Borden was murdered.  They say, however, that they think the assassin could have got out of the house by the front door and escaped without detection.

Wow!  Thanks Harry!
I don't even remember reading THAT source but I'll bet one of our Authors did!

So, we have a question, now, probably, according to the info Susan supplied:
WHo locked the front door after the "intruder"?

Also, we might infer from that article that Andrew wouldn't get *comfy* when he first arrived home, keeping his vest buttoned, and his BOW tie on*, and his pockets full...at least until after dinner?

*That part really stumped me, because Bridget says he ate breakfast in his shirtsleeves, no tie or collar or coat-- with just family there....I thought, if he were DONE with business for the day, he Would get comfortable.  But we have proof he didn't.  So there is merit in assuming he was expecting to see someone in his home?

One of the problems with that "theory" is that, as I recall, the clothes closet at the top of the stairs was kept locked.  When the police wanted to search it, they had to get a key from Lizzie (again, as I recall).  Thus, it wouldn't have been a haven for the killer, unless of course it had been accidentally or deliberately left unlocked.  If the killer wasn't abetted by someone in the house, he/she wouldn't have known the closet was unlocked.  I have wondered if Andrew's habit of seeing business callers at home wasn't the real reason for all the locked doors in the Borden house.

It seems that Dr. Kelly had an office in his home.
Would that Mrs. Dr. Kelly had been asked if THEY kept interior family doors locked (from the public).  That is an interesting view....

Glad you mentioned that, Kat!  When I was a kid, several of my extended family members (mainly uncles by marriage) owned country general stores.  Those were the most fun places to visit!  There was all kinds of wonderful "stuff" hung from the ceiling and stashed on shelves and in showcases.  My Uncle Bill's store was free-standing, and the house was separate.  However, my Uncle Jim's store was attached to the house.  Specifically, the dining room lookd right into the store.  While he was eating, Uncle Jim would often hear a bell ring in the store and have to get up, go into the store, (In South Carolina, it was "de stow.")and wait on somebody.  And they did indeed keep certain of their doors locked all the time.  I remember thinking that was very odd and different from the way we did things at home.  Specifically, the bedroom-and-bath wing was kept locked during the day.  It would have been all too easy for a robber to wander into the house and accost someone.  This was a one-story house, but it was somewhat analogous to the Borden situation.  There were "private" rooms (locked) and "public" rooms (unlocked).  In the case of the Bordens, the private rooms were on the second floor.

Gawsh!  THAT makes so much sense!
Maybe the daylight robbery Was such a one as wandered in....