1. "The rear fence"
Posted by harry on May-27th-02 at 10:25 PM

Attached is a magnified picture of the rear fence. The lumber pile is clearly visible.  I can't see any barbed wire on the fence but the picture is not that clear. It does look very easy to scale the fence from the Borden side.

The fence seems to come pretty near the back of the barn. According to the floor plan of the barn there appears to be a window or another door in the back of the barn facing the Chagnons.

(Message last edited May-27th-02  10:30 PM.)

None of the photo's seem to show barbed wire, I agree.
However, check your trusty Rebello, pg. 45 shows a drawing of wire...and pg. 47, item #3 describes "back fence with barbed wire."

I read recently (?...this is funny!) that the back fence was 26 feet high!  (It was probably in the newspapers...)
Sounds like they're describing a *detainee camp*.

I had looked at that picture on page 45. Proportionately it shows a large area between the back of the barn and the fence. The drawings on 46 and 47 show the fence fairly near the back of the barn.

The drawing on 45 shows the length of the property to be 118 feet. If you back out the curb, 7', the house, 47', the distance between the house and the barn, approx. 12' and the barn itself, 30' that totals 96 feet. That leaves 22 feet from the back of the barn to the fence. That doesn't look correct when you look at the photo.

The picture you posted (which is the one I magnified) shows a fairly tight area behind the barn.

How could anyone print something like that ...a 26 foot fence. That's nearly as high as the house!

(Message last edited May-28th-02  12:47 AM.)

I can't understand the multiple differences between most of the schematics and photos!
I never really noticed this before.
Do we, ANYWHERE, have Kieran's measurements?

You know, the photo's are probably true...there looks to be a measley few feet between the fence and the back of the barn. 

I have a feeling that the "26 foot high fence" was a misprint.  They probably meant 6 foot, right?  I just realized it when writing it.

Edit here:
I looked again at your photo of the fence.
It might show the woodpile as deep as the difference between the barn and the fence...at least up to the two trees, including the *roof support frames* (those" A" shaped things).
So maybe that's 10 feet minimum after all...

(Message last edited May-28th-02  1:15 AM.)

Judging from the barn doors, that fence would only be about 6 feet in height. That's a misprint or a mistake. Even the length of the fence would be more than 26 feet long. Barbed wire might not be visible with the lens and film of that time.

Barbed wire could have been strung along the top or outside. If rusted, it would not contrast with the dark wood.

Yeah, Kat, I read that same thing somewhere.  Imagine how high a 26-foot fence would be!  You'd have to really love pears to scale that mother.

It would be interesting to know who built this fence, when, and why. The "working side" of the fence (showing the posts and horizontal supports) faces into the Borden yard indicating it was built by the owner of that property. Do we know whether it was built by Andrew or was the fence there when he purchased the property? It is also possible the fence was built by the owner of the adjoining lot(s) in back and was faced the wrong way.

I should think Andrew but that's just a guess. Directly behind the Borden lot was the pear orchard. At least that's the way it appears in the drawings.

We know the Borden pear tree attracted local boys so I would imagine an empty lot full of pear trees would also attract them. The fence would be a logical move to keep them away. That lot is described as the "Chapman lot". (page 47, Rebello) That drawing also shows the Chagnon front fence extending across the front of the Chapman lot. I don't know if that means they owned it or not.

Andrew bought the property in 1872. I looked at the hand-drawn Fall River map of 1877. It doesn't show a fence, but it doesn't show any fences at all in the neighborhood so that is meaningless.

Yes, the fence supports do suggest it was built by the Borden side. Good point Doug. With Andrew's strict adherence to fairness he would probably want something that clearly defined the boundary of his property.

I agree with you, Harry.  It does seem that Andrew would have put up the fence, but, does it state anywhere the condition of the fence?  Was the wood old and rotted or in fairly good condition?  That could be a big telling point as to when the fence was put in.  The barbed wire is a scary touch though, it almost sounds as if the Bordens lived in a war zone! 

Prelim., pg. 84, questioning Bridget, mentions "a pile of boards against Dr. Chagnon's fence?"

--Of course this may be a question of semantics, to designate which part of the fence is in question.

(Message last edited Jun-2nd-02  8:31 PM.)

I don't think they are referring to who owns the fence. There were 3 fences, the Churchill fence, the Chagnon and the Kelly. I think they refer to the surnames only as a reference point to distinguish them. However it is only the Chagnon fence that is also referred to as the Borden fence.

There is also a problem with the barbed wire. Several times at the trial it was mentioned that there was barbed wire on the top and bottom of the back fence. However Kieran, the surveyor, testified:

Q.  Will you state with respect to the fences between the Borden lot and the adjoining lots anything that you observed of barbed wire, either on top or on the bottom of the fences?
A.  All of the fences in the back part of the Borden yard have barbed wire on top. The fence between the Borden yard and the yard occupied by Mr. Crowe, has barbed wire on the side,---on the corner of the top stringer. That is all I have any note of.
Q.  Did you notice whether or not there was barbed wire at the bottom of any of these fences?
A.  I did not see any.

It's not that important but Kieran was sent to specifically measure and take notes on the fence. I don't know why one one put barbed wire on the bottom of a fence. To keep out animals? Possibly if there were holes in the fence. It doesn't seem to serve any purpose.



(Message last edited Jun-3rd-02  2:18 AM.)

Yes, i agree about naming the fence in reference to a locality.
I usually say "Muriel's fence" or "Jo's fence" when referring to a DIRECTION.  (And even tho Jo DIED 3 years ago!)
And I do think barbed wire would be utilized to keep out animals, top and bottom of fence!
But I remember, also, that Crowes yard had all kinds, shapes & sizes, and nationalities of workers there...so that wire could serve as added protection to an already beleagured family with a history of break-ins.
They didn't exactly "run warrants" or background checks on the laborers there before hiring.  Plus there were probably Hangers-on that loitered around that Crowe yard, like McGowan, who wasn't working that day, yet stole pears.
BTW:  How did he get 'round that wire?

Barbed wire on the top may keep people from climbing over (personally witnessed this as a child on neighbor's fence). On the bottom to keep boys or dogs from slipping under. Maybe you remember this from the olden days?

If you are prepared with a thick piece of tarpaulin or canvas, you just put it over! But you must be prepared.

In the middle east they put broken glass on the top of masonry walls. Better, and makes a noise if someone breaks it.
(Pictures, not my own personal experience.)

Or was the barbed wire there because of all those strange, swarthy men working in close vicinity to Andrew's viginal daughters that he wanted to keep that way?  Or just keep the strange men from his women folk?

I remember some of the old Victorian homes in my neighborhood growing up that had sharp pointed stones embedded in the top of the walls surrounding the properties.  This was also the case at the Catholic school that I attended, though, I believe those were to keep the boys from climbing the walls and walking on top like a tightrope. 

Sullivan, pg. 13:

"...the Borden lot, which was enclosed on the remaining three sides by an uninterrupted fence;  the back fence separating the Borden property from the pear orchard was topped with barbed wire."

--An "uninterrupted fence" inplies one fence, installed at the same time, which would mean by one owner?

I think what they mean by by an uninterrupted fence is that there is no gate or opening. The front was also fenced but it had two gates.

Wasn't there also supposed to be a gate between the Borden's and the Churchill's?  Maybe I'm remembering that wrong, but, it has to do when Mrs. Churchill comes over after seeing Lizzie at the back door. 

None of the sketches or photos I've seen shows a gate between the Churchill and Borden properties.  I also seem to recall that Mrs. Churchill, in order to reach the Borden house, had to exit the front of her house, walk a brief distance "up" Second street (south) and enter a gate in the Borden fence.  I was curious, because Hoffman's "YIOFR" reports that three young men were sitting on Mrs. Churchill's front porch at the time of the murders.  That seems unlikely, because she actually didn't HAVE a front porch.  There were steps there, though, and they might have been lounging on them.  I opined that she would have fallen over the three young men if they'd been there!  I suspect they weren't there at the time of the murders, because they were never called as witnesses.

I have seen pointed stones put on low wall. You could climb over them, but not sit there.

Edisto, your post got me thinking and I went and checked the house charts and the house photos from 1892.  There seems to be only the 2 gates.

But, didn't Andrew own a horse and carriage a few years before the murders?  How did he get both through that teeny-tiny gate that opens onto the side walkway of the house?  Did Andrew have the fence changed after he got rid of the horse?  And there doesn't seem to be any driveway opening in the curb.  Very strange!

I don't remember the exact details, but carriages (and early automobiles) were narrower than today. Less than 5 feet in width?
Anyone with better knowledge? Seen any Amish carriages lately?

Those gates only appear to be about 3 to 4 feet wide.  That would be one narrow vehicle.  The horse I can see being walked in through the gate.  I wonder if maybe the whole fence portion is hinged in that area?

But, how did the carriage get up over the curb?  It seems like a high jump? 

I think the front fence wasn't there when they owned the horse.

Take a look at this picture showing that gate. The tree is directly opposite that gate which means it was not used for the horse.

That whole front area was probably open. The fence also looks relatively new.

As for the curb, Morse was asked in the trial(?) about the surface of the road. He said that it was "macadamized" or paved.  Maybe that was done in the last year and the curb put up. Andy would have no objection since he no longer wanted the horse.

I've been away for a few weeks, so I don't know why I'm jumping in on this topic -- I'm not even sure where it's going. But I wondered if you had a date for that photo, Harry?

Also, maybe my perspective is a little wonky (it often is) -- but it  seems to me as though the portion of the fence that is in line with the garage appears heavier -- plus it has diagonal stress bars. Perhaps it was hinged and could swing open?

Hi Diana, welcome back.

My comments were mainly directed at the gate. The famous picture taken from the back clearly shows the path from the back steps leading directly to the gate. Notice also how high the path is from the carriage ruts in the "driveway". The gate was obviously meant for the back entry. You can also see the tree clearly blocks any carriage entry that way.

The fence across the driveway looks like it has a solid connection to the post on the right side.  The connection to the left post is not visible.   It looks too solid to me though on the right side to be movable.

On the other hand if you look real close you can see under the fence. That shows that that section was not connected to the ground but only to the posts. 

I don't know when the picture was taken, but that's snow on the ground.

(Message last edited Jun-7th-02  3:42 PM.)

Oh, good! -- you noticed that portion of the fence was off the ground, too.  That, combined with the diagonals made me think it might be a large hinged gate, positioned beside the smaller one.  Also, the side door picture shows the carriage ruts leading to that part of the fence.  (I should have been clearer in my original message.  I did know you were referring to the smaller gate in yours.)

I think the ruts were there when the fence went up. They would still probably be there if that area hadn't been paved. I think Rays(?) commented on that.

I understand that there are still wagon ruts that can be seen from the pioneers that settled the west in the U.S.A.

I have the same idea as you, Diana.  It looks to me like that portion of the fence might be a giant gate of its own.  Those diagonal stress bars, I have only seen those on gates so that the weight doesn't pull those portions out of whack.  I know this has nothing to do with the murder as a clew, but, it was something that I noticed and wondered about.  But, that tree DOES seem to be in the way though! 

Excellent questions you guys, and excellent observations, all of you.

Notice in Harry's view down the driveway?
That's Southard Miller's house--1/2 of a duplex--to the right would be a mirror image of that south side, and would be Dr. Bowen's residence, where Bridget ran on Thursday.

I think "40 Whacks" has a good shot from in front of the barn, showing the side door and the front gate (as I remember it).
You may (?) see the wide gate in this picture.

I'm sure everyone is finished talking about this,
but, I live in Amish country & their buggies are
quite narrow, they sit two people across & there
isnt much extra space. Probably less than 5 feet,
they do have bigger wagons for two horses
to pull but those arent "dressy" carriages, they are
usually for work & hauling.

Well, if Andrew only had one horse, he'd probably have a small carriage too?  (As you and Ray sort of describe?)
I think he had a couple of conveyances, come to think of it, that were still being stored in the barn when the police searched.  (Was one a sled or sleigh?)

Kat, is that info on the sleigh in the Preliminaries or is it in the Trial transcripts?  It was one of the things that I found in Lincoln and don't recall reading about it anywhere else. 

Oh dear girl you have to get Word Search & the Prelim.!
I asked the question first...I didn't want to look it up...I be lazy this week!

{edit here}  BTW:  I've been looking at some pretty clear photo's of that back fence and I DO NOT SEE that dang "barbed wire" No Sir!

(Message last edited Aug-27th-02  3:09 PM.)

Didn't they keep a carriage in the barn? Just rent a horse as needed.
Maybe this was in Victoria Lincoln's book (it lacks an index).

Sorry, Kat!  Sounds like you could use a shot of Moxie! 

Just checked through all the source documents I have and nothing on a sleigh in the barn, so, it must be in the Preliminary.  As I said, I read it in Lincoln's book and wasn't sure if this was an available information or just one of her "facts"? 

Prelim.
Harrington
Pg. 394

A.  I went up to the barn about three o'clock, I am not certain about the time. I was so pushed that day, I did not pay much attention to the time after that. On the ground floor was Marshal Hilliard, Riley, Connors, Doherty, and a man named O'Toole. The marshal gave orders to search that barn, and search it thoroughly. We began work, and he with us. It contained an old sleigh and two carriages.
Q.  This was down stairs?
A.  Yes Sir, a number of barrels, and quite a number of old window frames, some containing glass, and others not. We searched all around there, without finding anything we thought necessary to take.

VOILA!  You tell me where it ISN'T, therefore, you're right... it MUST be where it IS...the last place to look, always, right?

I found the barbed wire while I was looking in the Prelim.=
pg. 224, Wixon.

Thanks, Kat!  You are a lady and a scholar.... doesn't have quite the same ring to it?  Yes, I need to buckle down and get the Prelim, I'm bad!!!  So, that barn contained even more than I thought it did!!!  Wow!  So the Bordens were like a 3 car family, 2 regular and one SUV!  Thank you sooooo much for the info, I appreciate it!!! 

The standard railway gauge in this country (and England, France, Germany, etc.) is based on the standards for the Roman chariot from 2000 years ago. There is a good reason for standard widths, imagine what it would be like in the rutted dirt roads from yesteryear.

I suppose a one-horse buggy would be as small as practical, rather than pull around dead weight. Multi-horse vehicles would probably have wider tracks (stage coaches, wagons, etc.).

Don't be fooled by all those old movies that used readily available horses! Most people in olden times used oxen to pull wagons. Slow, but terribly strong. And they could live on sparse fodder that would kill a horse. IMO. And tastier (?) if you got really hungry, like the Donner Pass party.

What a heartbreaking story that is, the Donner Party.  Its amazing what people will do to survive!!!