Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY
Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden
Topic Name: What Scared Emma?

1. "What Scared Emma?"
Posted by Kat on May-24th-02 at 11:27 PM

In the Trial, pg. 1545, Emma is being questioned about Lizzie's dress and about Alice Russell.

Then something odd pops out, that we've never commented on.
What does it mean?

(On Monday), "Miss Russell came to us in the dining room and said Mr. Hanscomb asked her if all the dresses were there that were there the day of the tragedy, and she told him 'yes', -'and of course,' she said, 'it is a falsehood.'  No, - I am ahead of my story.  She came and said she told Mr. Hanscomb a falsehood, and I asked her what there was to tell a falsehood about, and then she said that Mr. Hanscomb had asked her if all the dresses were there that were there the day of the tragedy and she told him 'yes'.  There was other conversation, but I don't know what it was.  That frightened me so thoroughly, I cannot recall it.  I know the carriage was waiting for her to go on some errand, and when she came back we had some conversation and it was decided to have her go and tell Mr. Hanscomb that she had told a falsehood and to tell him that we told her to do so.  She went into the parlor and told him, and in a few minutes she returned from the parlor and said she had told him."

(Message last edited May-24th-02  11:58 PM.)


2. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by harry on May-25th-02 at 1:19 AM
In response to Message #1.

Up until then only three people knew of the burning of the dress. Lizzie, Emma and Alice.

Hanscomb's asking of the question may have made Emma believe he knew something that she thought was a secret between them.

I wonder what Alice told Hanscomb other than that all the dresses were not there. Did she mention the burning of the dress to him? Did he ask her what was not there and how did she know? A lot more questions than answers.

(Message last edited May-25th-02  1:21 AM.)


3. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by Kat on May-25th-02 at 2:08 AM
In response to Message #2.

It's strange, but maybe not so strange after all.  What I'm referring to is that once I transcribed that Trial passage, and HIGHLIGHTED certain phrases, the meaning Changed!
I know, people have been decrying the printed words of the trial as INERT, and as opposed to hearing it SPOKEN, in the original voices of the original characters, not ACTORS.
That's what happened to me here, after I re-read this segment 4 more times.  I had read it 3x in the bound volume, and got a different interpretation!
Thought I'd toss it out to everyone, after all, because of the ambiguity.

--If Emma was so adament that Lizzie did nothing wrong by burning the dress at her instigation, how can she now tell the court she was SO FRIGHTENED by that very act becoming known?
--There obviously seems to be MORE to the conversation between Alice and Lizzie and Emma that Monday, than we ever would know...

Edit here:  We need to remember the context, also...at least I do, to put things in perspective:

Saturday is the funeral--the bodies are now gone from the house
Saturday Lizzie gives up a dress
Saturday evening the Mayor tells Lizzie she is "suspected"
Sunday  morning Lizzie burns a dress
Monday Alice *has a few minutes talk* with the family-retained officer, about Lizzie's dresses.

(Message last edited May-25th-02  2:15 AM.)


4. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by harry on May-25th-02 at 2:27 AM
In response to Message #3.

Now I see your point Kat. Missed it the first time.

I wasn't taking into account that this was testimony at the trial. Like Scarlett O'Hara I'll worry about that tomorrow. Too late for thinking.


5. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by Kat on May-25th-02 at 2:35 AM
In response to Message #4.

You came through admirably, Harry.
You brought up things I wanted to think about.
I needed the input.

Now, I was just going to add:
Wasn't Saturday night the night Alice changed bedrooms?
Probably because of the THING she found under the elder Borden's bed?

Seems Alice's stay with the girls was fraught with things she stumbled over that were detrimental to Emma and Lizzie.  I wonder if they tried to get her to leave?  Who needs a witness?


6. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by Susan on May-25th-02 at 3:57 PM
In response to Message #5.

To what THING do you refer to Kat?  The club that Andrew kept under the bed or is it something completely different?

Yes, Alice Russel does come across as Gladys Cravitz(from Bewitched) the nosy neighbor who sticks her head or nose in at the most inopportune moments!    But, without her, we may never have heard of the dress burning incident or other things that went on in the house while she was there.

Do you think that Emma was frightened by the fact that it had become known that Lizzie burned a dress and that she was an accomplice or that Alice had told a falsehood to the officer and that is what frightened her so?  It is a very cryptic statement and I too am bothered by it, what frightened poor Emma so much that she was compelled to mention it on the stand?  I wonder what other conversation was had by the three?

And then sometimes I wonder if when Lizzie gave a dress to the officers if she wasn't thinking along the lines of: Oh, I can't give them this ratty old dress, what will people say of me, of us?  I will give them this nicer dress and they will think more highly of me.  Its like if someone asked you for a pair of your underwear to display in the court, would you give them the pair you were wearing with holes in it and such or pick the nicest, cleanest, sexiest panty or brief that you owned?  Do you see what I mean?  Just a thought. 


7. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by Kat on May-25th-02 at 6:58 PM
In response to Message #6.

Yea, the whittled club.  THAT always seemed suspicious because Alice distanced herself physically from it, she was so shocked!

And Oh, Goddess!
That's a hard question you ask!  Let me think....
Wouldn't a Trial For your LIFE compel you to give your ratty old dress if that was the one signified?  Unless she had a very pressing reason not to;  say if it were incriminating.
Lizzie couldn't know that no one would be able to distinctly identify WHAT dress she had been wearing...so I doubt she could take that chance...
BUT, that is interesting psychology!

Unless she just made an instant decision without thought, but then we think she is a swell planner, after all, if she pulled orf these crimes!

What You guys wrote got me thinking:

What if the "You've given me away, Emma" remark made by Lizzie in jail BEFORE the beginning of the Preliminary referred to her dress?
We know Alice told Hanscomb something Monday, but Hanscomb WORKED for THEM.
Maybe that remark/argument between the girls pertained to Emma finally telling Jennings about the burning of the dress.  If Emma was *So scared* she would probably seek Jenning's advice on the matter, and would have to tell him.  Hanscomb may very well have kept the info to himself, maybe ordered so by the girls.
Lizzie would have not capitulated and admitted to ANYONE that she HAD BURNED A DRESS.
Remember, Alice never testified to the destruction of the dress UNTIL THE GRAND JURY, at the end of Nov., or first of December.
Lizzie staunchly maintained that the dress given the court was THE dress she wore, without GiVING AN INCH....
Both Emma and Lizzie must have begun to realize the horribly significant repercussions of that willful deed, and that it would always thereafter haunt them as incredibly bad judgement, to either burn an *innocent* dress at such a time, or else to have burned a suspicious dress in front of ALICE.
And Lizzie kept her mouth shut and wanted NO explainations made....
It took MONTHS for the general knowledge to leak out...and it WAS devasting to her case...


8. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by harry on May-25th-02 at 7:23 PM
In response to Message #7.

It may have dawned on Emma that what looked completely innocent to her would not be so perceived by the police. That feeling would have been bolstered by Alice's remark "that was the worst thing you could have done".


9. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by Susan on May-25th-02 at 7:36 PM
In response to Message #7.

Why was Alice afraid of the whittled club?  Did she think it was the murder weapon?  Did Andrew beat the girls when they were young as punishment?  Strange behaviour indeed!

As I had said about the ol' dress switcheroo, just a weird thought that enters into my mind, knowing that Lizzie wanted to live and be perceived as being higher up in society than Andrew would allow her.

I think that you are right, Kat, about the giving me away argument, I to believe Emma talked to Jennings and told him what had happened.  Do you think that it was he that came up with the whole story of Emma telling Lizzie to burn the dress as there weren't enough empty nails?  She seemed so rehearsed in it and was a bad actress and/or liar.  You can see how bad an actress when these little human touchs come through as in I was so frightened.  She is practically walked through her testimony with someone holding her hand and leading the way. 


10. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by Kat on May-25th-02 at 8:00 PM
In response to Message #8.

Yea Harry.
They had not quite 2 weeks to be freaked out, from the day of arrest till the day before the Prelim.  That time could have magnified a comment like Alice's into supreme importance.
It's really a wonder, then, that Alice kept quiet so long.
I'm almost surprised she wasn't *eliminated*, if Lizzie was guilty-- she seems to know so much.

As an aside:  Emma, on the stand basically turns her back on Alice, (distancing herself from what Alice might/could say?), replying that Alice was NOT an intimate friend of Lizzie, and they all saw each other *just as it happened*.

If any 2 witnesses for the defense were rehearsed, it would be Emma and Lubinsky.
I noticed Emma even using the *accepted* terminology in court, such as "and then we had conversation..."
As we read that trial, they're always saying "I don't care to hear what was SAID;  what did you then DO..."

What does anyone think about that club?


11. "Re: What Scared Emma?"
Posted by Susan on May-25th-02 at 8:28 PM
In response to Message #10.

I was just reading through the witness statements and found the blip about Alice finding the club and stating that it had not been there the night before when she slept in the bed, she could not have missed it.  It was reported that she was very agitated about it. 

I would like to know why she was agitated about it too!  What is the significance? 


12. "Re: What Scared Alice?"
Posted by Kat on May-25th-02 at 10:59 PM
In response to Message #11.

Inquest, Alice Russell, pg. 152-4: ( Inquest Held Aug. 9-11, 1892)

A: The morning of the funeral I went out to do some errands and when I came back...and I turned, and I saw something in under the bed that frightened me almost to pieces.  (In the elder Borden's room.)
Q: You were sleeping in the house?
A: Yes Sir
Q: That big stick?
A: Yes Sir
Q: It is the one you gave to the marshal, the round whittled stick?
A: Yes Sir
Q: Had you been sleeping in the house every night?
A: Yes Sir
Q: You slept there that night?
A: Yes Sir, that is what frightened me so much, it was in my room
Q: That was the room Mr. and Mrs. Borden occupied?
A: Yes Sir.  I occupied that while I was there
................................
Q: When did you first see that stick?
A: I think between nine and ten.  I don't think I could have been gone longer than that
Q: It was not while you were at the funeral?
A: No Sir.  When I came back, my clothes were there, my dress was there, I went into this room I had occupied to change my dress, and turned, when I saw it
Q: Where was it exactly?
A: At the head of the bed
Q: Under?
A: Yes Sir
Q: How much in sight?
A; So that I saw it as I turned
Q: Had it been there before?
A: I had not seen it before
Q: Had you done, what they say women do?
A: No, I had not done that
Q: Had not looked under the bed?
A: No Sir
Q: So it may have been under the bed all the time?
A: Yes.  I think in my frightened condition, as I look at it now, it might have been there.  Then I was terribly alarmed because I felt as if in some way it implicated me
Q: About as much as it implicates me, just about
A: Yes, as I look at it now
Q: When you saw it, it was plainly visible?
A: Yes, I saw the end of it
Q: How much was it out?  Indicate by your fan
A: It was not out from under the bed at all.  I could see a little ways under the bed
Q: It had no flap hanging down, a modern french bedstead?
A: It was not a french bedstead;  it had no varlance
Q: You would have been likely to have seen it before that if it had been in the same place?
A: I thought so
Q: Did you every (sic) find out what it was?
A: I think it was something that her father had kept in the house
A: Who told you that?
A: I told it to Detective Hanscomb;  and he asked Emma.  I don't think the girl knew anything about that I found it.

--The Witness Statements, pg. 39, notes made by Joseph Hyde, August 8, about 15 minutes after nine, .."Miss Russell came to me and told me she would like me to come up stairs, she wanted me to see something.  She led the way to the southeast bedroom, and pointing to something that lay on the floor under the head of the bed, said 'what's that?'  I picked it up.  It was a club, about 20 inches long.  She said I slept here last night;  if that was there last night, I don't see how I missed seeing it.  Miss Russell seemed very much excited, and begged me to tell no one but the Marshal.  Mrs. Charles Holmes was present at the time."


13. "Re: What Scared Alice?"
Posted by Susan on May-26th-02 at 5:01 PM
In response to Message #12.

What I get from that is that Alice thinks it might be the murder weapon and she might be implicated as a murderess because it is under her bed?  Shes a big ol' scaredy cat, isn't she?  And what is that sexist statement about DOING WHAT WOMEN DO???  I don't think I have ever gone into a home and look under the bed!  Did women in Victorian times have a morbid fascination with the condition of what was beneath other people's beds?  How weird! 


14. "Re: What Scared Alice?"
Posted by Kat on May-26th-02 at 6:08 PM
In response to Message #13.

That's pretty funny!

Anyway, yea, I got the same impression.
I began to wonder if anybody told poor Alice what really killed the elder Bordens!
For a bit there, she seemed to have thought she may have found the muder weapon?
My notes in the margin of the Inquest., ask whether this could have been planted (by police) while she was gone in hopes of having others *find* it while the family was at the funeral...
Maybe over that weekend there was still some confusion as to weapon?
Also, why did they ask so many questions about it of Alice at the Inquest?  They had much MORE productive lines of questions they COULD have followed!

BTW:  This exchange on the witness stand, noted above, was in the MIDST of being asked "Is there any other (question) I have not asked you about, which you know is material to the question, that you have not stated?...It is...your duty to tell..."  Two pages later Alice is again asked "Is there any other fact that has to do with this matter that you can tell us...?"

Do you suppose the state knew by that time that Alice knew much more than she was saying, yet not quite what it was?  I don't recall any other witness being asked so directly to force their memory without asking leading questions...


15. "Re: What Scared Alice?"
Posted by Susan on May-26th-02 at 6:38 PM
In response to Message #14.

Maybe all the weird questioning was to prove that indeed Alice was being very cooperative and telling all she saw and knew?  I don't know?  Perhaps they did know that she had more info and wasn't sharing it as yet?  Good point, Kat!

Maybe Alice saw the stick all of a sudden because the police did WHAT WOMEN DO and looked under the bed, found the stick, pulled it out and put it back.  Possibly not far enough and it was more visible now?

Do you think that there was more to the story with the stick?  Like it was to show that Andrew was scared of intruders or had enemies and kept a weapon in the house at all times?  And therefor could not have been a person in his house? 


16. "Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by Kat on May-27th-02 at 12:35 AM
In response to Message #15.

Stef pondered whether the stick meant Andrew was being cautious as to intruders.  But you'd think if that were so, the girls would have made a big deal out of it.
Seemingly, it was under that bed a long time, and maybe everybody forgot about it. 

If anyone has a comment about the stick, please jump in.

But I also want to bring up a discrepency in the testimony of Alice and Emma dealing with that guest room.
Trial, Emma, 1564:
Emma says she and Lizzie use the guest room for sewing only, not as a sitting room.  The only time very close friends are shown up to that room is when they are already ensconced there, sewing.

Inquest, Alice, 146:
Alice says the upstairs room is what the girls used as a sitting room..."what they call the guest room."

And in the Preliminary, 292:
Alice says she met the girls in the guest room "that was their sitting room."

Is Emma *distancing* herself and Lizzie from that guest room, and lying while doing so?


17. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by edisto on May-27th-02 at 9:30 AM
In response to Message #16.

I have a comment about Alice's consternation on finding Andrew's club under the bed.  I think she was frightened by anything that was shaped like a phallus! 

Oh, incidentally, call me Victorian, but when I used to be on the road all the rime, I always checked under the bed.  Modern hotel beds are often on platforms, so that's comforting.  One of my co-workers was raped by a man who concealed himself in her hotel room in Chicago.  I checked even more carefully after that.


18. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by william on May-27th-02 at 9:51 AM
In response to Message #17.

My dad always kept a "Louisville Slugger" tucked under his bed.  As far as I know he never played a game of baseball in his entire life, so I must assume he kept it there for protection.  I never asked - - he never told. Perhaps he was a frustrated Babe Ruth fan.
Bill

(Message last edited May-27th-02  9:53 AM.)


19. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by Susan on May-27th-02 at 2:35 PM
In response to Message #17.

You know Edisto, I never thought of it that way!  I guess it would stand to reason to check under the bed when staying in a strange place.  I just took offense to that statement of DOING WHAT WOMEN ARE SAID TO DO.  Perhaps that was how it was meant, were you as a single woman without the protection of a big strapping man checking out your environment before going to bed. 


20. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by Kat on May-27th-02 at 5:19 PM
In response to Message #19.

I keep a baseball bat under my bed right now.

And when I was younger I ALWAYS checked under the bed;  After seeing the movie Psycho, I also checked behind the shower curtain when traveling!


21. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by NanaJan on May-27th-02 at 7:10 PM
In response to Message #20.

As difficult as it many be to believe, I have a hatchet under the bed.  Too much Lizzie on the brain?  Make of it what you will.  Last winter my husband was working out of town for an extended time.  One evening as I pulled into the garage, my eye fell on the hatchet used for splitting firewood. I took it up stairs to make myself feel safer. I never have gotten around to removing it.  Imagine the field day investigators could have if, God forbid, they had to search my house because of a crime!


22. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by rays on May-28th-02 at 10:17 AM
In response to Message #21.

A club or edged instrument may be a comforting thought, but it would do you little good when asleep. Or even awake, if you are not proacticed and experienced in its use, AND ready to use it.

A pistol is much more practical. You can even visit a firing range, meet new people, and get advice from experts. If Nicole Brown Simpson stepped out on her porch with one at night, her history would be different. Any shots fired would have alerted her neighbors, and the police. Even if she missed entirely!


23. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by Susan on May-28th-02 at 2:45 PM
In response to Message #22.

I have to wonder about the "whittled club".  Its referred to as a club or weapon, when possibly, it may have just been a walking stick or cane that Andrew made?

And I too at one point kept weapons under my bed, when my husband and I were robbed and told by the police that the robbers would most likely be back in a few weeks to steal what we bought to replace the stolen items.  I had a baseball bat on my side under the bed and my husband chose a big ol' butcher knife.  But, as Rays pointed out, what good would this do if intruders came while you were asleep and didn't have the chance to retrieve your weapon?


24. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by Kat on May-28th-02 at 7:32 PM
In response to Message #22.

I knew when I placed that bat under the edge of the bed that I had to be prepared to use it.
I pictured in my mind different scenarios, and how I would react.  I've acted it out.
I've been a heck of a softball player in my time, and am expert with a bat.
I also know that you're not supposed to SWING it at an assailant, but jab.
A gun is worthless to me.
My measley belongings are not worth shooting someone for.
I would also have to weigh whether my life was more important than the taking of another's, and I'd rather not make a hasty decision like that. 
I think people who own a gun, eventually USE it.  Else, they wouldn't have one.
(I also have experience handling, firing and cleaning a Luger, a .22 pistol, a .22 rifle, and a .357 Magnum.)...No guns for ME!


25. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by edisto on May-28th-02 at 8:59 PM
In response to Message #24.

On July 4, 1976, I conked a drunken marine over the head with an empty champagne bottle.  It was richly deserved, and I have to say it was one of the most satisfying feelings I've ever had!  Fortunately, I had brought my own personal physician to the bicentenniel festivities with me, and he examined my victim and pronounced him okay.  He did predict that the young man would have quite a headache the next day and probably wonder why.


26. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by Susan on May-28th-02 at 11:13 PM
In response to Message #25.

Wow, Edisto!  I suppose that the drunken Marine would not take "no" for an answer?  I guess we are more of a violent society than we allow to be?  Very interesting!


27. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by rays on Jun-1st-02 at 11:26 AM
In response to Message #24.

There was a TV show some years ago about a series of unsolved murders in a small southern town. Mostly elderly women. The guy somehow got in, and killed to prevent any witnesses (?).

Does anyone here think it could have been a woman?


28. "Re: Alice vs. Emma"
Posted by Kat on Jun-1st-02 at 5:25 PM
In response to Message #27.

No.
The statistics are so low as to be non-existent.
I could probably attempt to "profile" the offender, but it would come out here as not sounding politically correct.

Our only really documented female serial killer is Eilleen Wournos(Sp?), who did her deeds in Florida.  She had a close gal-pal who may or may not have "helped".



 

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