1. "Speaking of Miss Emma..."
Posted by Tina-Kate on Aug-6th-02 at 11:15 PM

does anyone recall anything about where Emma stayed while Lizzie was in jail?  My brain can't seem to recall this mentioned anywhere.  Did she stay @ 2nd Street, & if so, was she alone? 

Didn't Emma stay with the Jubbs for awhile?  I know that when Lizzie was released from prison, Emma already had the new housekeeper, so, she must have been living in the Second Street house. 

Seem to be having an insomnia night.  Was Emma stuck with JVM for a while?  I seem to be having a mental block there as well...not sure if JVM stayed in Fall River those 9 or so months. 

When Lizzie got acquitted, I think the sisters spent that 1st night with a family called Holmes.  Makes me wonder if Emma stayed at 2nd St or got out ASAP & slept around Fall River (not meaning anything off color here!).

I think Emma stayed with the BUCK sister after she left Maplecroft.

Where Emma stayed while Lizzie was in jail is really a good question.
I've spent a while looking in Rebello, and believe it or not, There is now a storm coming.  Hope I can share what little I found, and what I remember...

I think Emma stayed at Second Street while Lizzie was being held, visiting her often.  Emma had by then a new housekeeper, Harriet, which Stefani mentioned on another thread.  (R., 255).

The newspapers said that Emma was "In The City With Friends" for the Trial.  (New Bedford.)  Remember, though, that a witness could not be present at the trial until AFTER  their own testimony, and maybe not then, either, if there was the possibility of re-calling the witness.
As a witness for the defense, I believe Emma was only in the courtroom the last two days of that whole trial.

I had read that Morse stayed in a rooming house before leaving town about the 5th of December, 1892, to return to Hastings on bond.  I think this was in Arnold's book....

BTW:  In several places, including p.135, Harry was correct that Morse was still around on the 23rd of August, 1893, applying for Witness fees.



(Message last edited Aug-7th-02  5:23 AM.)

More confusion...in Rebello pg 309, he quotes from Victoria Lincoln, who wrote, "That night Emma left.  She stayed with Mr Jubb's sister until she could arrange to go to Fairhaven."  So, that must be where you got that, Susan(?)

Thanks Kat...you'd think I'd pick up my Rebello more!

Haven't been able to find any more on this.

Oh to have been able to listen in on conversations between Emma & JVM while Lizzie was in jail!

Both of them sorting out all the arrangements, dotting the i's & crossing the t's.  One wonders what they talked about & if they also kept things from each other.  Makes the imagination run amok....

Thank you, Tina-Kate!  I finally found where I had read it and you posted on it, thanks for looking!  So, Emma was at home with the new housekeeper and John Morse.  I too would love to have heard what it was that they talked about!

Did they find themselves strangely drawn to the murder spots?  Did John Morse continue to sleep in the guest room?  I suppose Emma may have felt safer having a man around the house, but, that must have taken some nerve to stay there.  If it was me, I don't know if I'd have the fortitude to stay. 

My post slightly revised:
Rebello, 311, When Emma moved out of Maplecroft she went to Fairhaven, possibly from 1905-1908. (and see post #5)

There is no mention as to where Morse stayed...so to specify anywhere would be an assumption...just to be clear.

So, its not known where John Morse stayed while the trial went on?  Hmm, I always figured that he just stayed at the Bordens, but, I guess thats not correct then. 

Well, as the TRIAL progressed, it was taking place in New Bedford, right?
I just figured, if Emma "stayed with friends" THERE, during that time, then Morse may have also, rather than traveling every day from Fall River.
Your guess is as good as anyones at this point...

Oops, my bad!  I wasn't even thinking along those lines, that they would have to be close to where the trial was being held. 

Again < i think any guess you make is as good as any others.
No bad, really.
If Morse testified 5th or so, on say the second day, do we know if he stayed in town for the rest of the trial?
And how far is Dartmouth from New Bedford?  Got an atlas?  Maybe he stayed there with the Davis'.
OR if he didn't stay for the trial after his testimony, maybe he DID stay at #92, as long as the girls weren't there...
There are a lot of permutations here...I don't know of a set answer...

Kat,

Dartmouth is really close to New Bedford, but to travel every day back and forth might warrent a closer sleeping arrangement.

T

South Dartmouth where the Davis family lived is, what, about 5 miles from New Bedford?  I checked my atlas after you said how close it was, Tracie.

But we still don't know where Morse was During the trial.  Maybe the newspapers might have info?  (Is 5 miles too far?  What if all the hotels were full?)

I've word-searched what newspapers I have for Morse's whereabouts and it just isn't in there.

Someone may want to try "The Author's" next, but not me...

Last night I was reading (Rebello, pp. 272-273) that funny bit about Morse's attempt to get mileage paid from Iowa, which I believe he said was 1600 miles away.  He finally admitted he had been staying in South Dartmouth, and the county treasurer asked how far away that was.  Morse said it was about two and a half miles, so they generously gave him credit for three miles.  When they were trying to ascertain his home of record, Morse was asked where he got his laundry done.  He said he didn't get laundry done.  When he had worn a shirt until it was dirty, he threw it away and got another one.  (What about underwear?) This passage, incidentally, sheds no real light on where Morse had been staying between the murders and the trial.

Yea, it was right in my face the whole time and I never saw it.  Thanks for being so gentle with me...I can be a dolt sometimes...

No wonder Andy liked Uncle John!!! That's the same sort of trick that Andy would have liked to pull, in the same situation. "Well, I'm really from Iowa."
Remember Andy trying to get a few dollars from his sister for the water bill when that house was sold?

(Message last edited Aug-13th-02  5:06 PM.)

And wasn't the amount of tax on the water bill like $3.00 dollars?  Which today would be like about $57.00 dollars.  I still think that would be like pocketchange to Andrew, maybe it was the principal of the matter? 

I hadn't thought about that $3 being like $60.  That's a lot.

I was a rental agent for an apartment complex for one year (at that location), and invited a friend to live with me rent-free (the rent was part of my salary, but I increased my monthly income the more units I rented), if she would provide the furnishings.  She agreed and when the year was up (she having saved a years RENT), I gave notice to move, as I had gotten another rental agent job, at another property, with another friend of mine as my boss.
The Free-friend stayed on an extra week or two, while she arranged other accomodations.  I gave HER my 1/2 of the power bill, which was $60, cash, and moved.
A month later I received an overdue bill for the power on the apartment I had not lived in for 6 weeks.  I also received a letter from Free-friend, that proposed that since MY FRIENDS had put a cigarette hole in her leather couch (?) and adding various & sundry petty complaints, rationalized the fact that she had kept my $60 AND also had not paid the bill, which was in my name.  I had the responsiblity of the total bill, plus was missing my original $60.  Free-friend thought this was fair.
I don't think I ever spoke to her again, but once, after that episode.  Somehow, each thought the other was taking advantage, and instead of discussing it BEFORE it got to that point (of deception), assumed the worst of the other.

--Maybe Andrew and Lurana were like that.  Lurana and Hiram lived in that Ferry street house a LLLOOONNGGG  time! [And maybe Hiram had been putting HIS opinion in also]

(Message last edited Aug-17th-02  4:54 AM.)

And like you, Luarana finally complied.  I guess she was trying to keep the peace in the family?  What a horrible friend!  After saving all that money!!!  To nickel and dime you death, sounds like she didn't know when she had it good! 

Susan.

If they knew who the murderer was, then they would not have to worry.
Especially if that person was in jail or being held somewhere else.


T

This is true, Tracie!  If it was Lizzie, even if she wasn't in jail, I don't think that Emma would have anything to fear from her.  John Morse, hmmmm?  Don't know what her feelings were exactly on him, he might have some room for concern.  But, if it was someone else completely, I think all would be on pins and needles hoping that that person didn't spill their guts and that Lizzie wasn't found guilty! 

Tracie, you used the phrase 'being held somewhere else'...
Did you have anyone and someplace particular in mind?

Hey Kat,

I read Brown's book and got the impression that there was a suspect known to them (the Mellon Society (spelling?)and that person was somewhere else and Lizzie was taking the rap for that person because she would be found not guilty.  I've read so much, so many places, that I not positive where that IDEA came into my head.  But I think that was it.

A woman I work with took a handwriting analysis class with a forenzic (I can't spell today!!) professional and he used Lizzie as an example and he thought that she had the personality of a killer just from her handwriting.  He also compared her to OJ and many other famous persons who had committed crimes.  (Just thought you might like that little tidbit).

I'll look into some of my reference materials at home this weekend and see if I can come up with where I got that IDEA.

I email from work and don't have a computer at home so that is why you never hear from me on Weekends or evenings.

Tracie

Does anyone besides Arnold Brown really believe (or have evidence) that the "Mellen Gang" existed?  I believe some meetings with regard to the case were actually held at the Mellen House, but as I recall, Brown thought this amounted to a vast conspiracy involving a lot of the higher-ups in Fall River.  For my money, if that many people had been involved, word of such a conspiracy would eventually have gotten out.  As with these corporate accounting scandals, if you let too many people in on the secret, it soon ceases to be a secret.

Of all the things I have read about the Borden case the most ludicrous is the "Mellen House" gang.  This is what Brown has to say (page 92) as to its members:

"There is no possible way the names of all those who were part of the 1892 Silent Government of Bristol County, Massachusetts (of which Fall River was part), could be known. It did include the following (listed in alphabetical order):

Judge Josiah C. Blaisdell Justice, Second District Court for Bristol County)
Dr. John W. Coughlin (mayor of Fall River in public life and a physician and surgeon in private life)
Dr. William A. Dolan (chief medical examiner for Bristol County)
Marshal Rufus B. Hilliard (Fall River chief of police)
District Attorney Hosea M. Knowlton (district attorney for Bristol County)
Attorney General Arthur E. Pillsbury (attorney general for the commonwealth)
George F. Seaver, who was connected in some way with the "Massachusetts District Police" and reported to the governor.

Lets see, a Mayor, a Judge, the Medical Examiner, a District Attorney, a State Attorney General and the Chief of Police.

They were not a "Silent Government", they WERE the government.

To think that all these people who had reached this level of importance would risk their jobs and reputations over this case is beyond my reasoning.  Pshaw!  No, double Pshaw!

Hi Harry,

I believe most government officials are crooked to some extent, but I think you are right in saying WHY would they care to be involved in this case.  MAYBE Lizzie had something on all of them!!!!! hahahahahaha!

Old man Borden was just that an old man, who would probably die of natural causes soon enough.  Abby was just a housewife, so what would the Mellen gang gain by covering up the murders or even being involved?

I wish I could travel back in time to see these folks and figure out what really did happen on that day and the days leading up to the trial. 

Pshaw right back at ya!

T

I thought you might be referring to *being held* at the Taunton State Asylum...  (You worked there?)

It made me think of Jack-the-R., conspiracy, and state asylums.

A person by the name of Brown's candidate for the crimes HAD been institutionalized, but 20 years earlier.
See:
Keller, Jon. N. "The Mysterious William S. Borden." Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Vol. II, No. 4/5  at:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BrownControversy.htm

But, I thought you could also be alluding to Jose Carreiro....
or someone else...

Right you are Tracie. What would they have to gain? To assume that all these men would participate in such a dangerous scheme for the benefit of squashing a scandal is kind of hard to swallow.

It also strikes me as odd that the three people who had the most to say in influencing the jury were not part of the "gang".  Mason, Blodgett and Dewey, the three trial justices. How do get around these three or were they a secret part of the "secret government"?

The evidence that Lizzie was guilty simply wasn't there. Knowlton knew it months in advance of the trial but he sure tried to convict her. The poison evidence may have been formally excluded but it was mentioned in the trial in more than one place, by both sides. The jury was certainly aware of it.

Only Lizzie's inquest testimony had the possibility of clouding the result. Probably at best a hung jury.

The trial jury was even taken on a tour of the drugstore!
Wasn't mention made of the poison-buying attempt in opening arguments?

Blaisdell lost his job over HIS role in Lizzies proceedings!

I challenge "edisto" or anyone to find the phrase "vast conspiracy" anywhere in AR Brown's book. It reveals a chosen wrongmindedness or contrariness.

Did you (or anyone) read Jim Marrs "Rule by Secrecy"? I found it accurate for the 20th century, as far as it goes.

Do a small group of people control your local county or city politics? If NOT, just where do you live?

The Mellen House gang is very believable to anyone with experience in local politics. Just how do zoning laws get passed or exempted, for example? Just WHY do a group of public officials HAVE to meet in private quarters anyway?

The "Gilded Age" had many, many example of government action for private gains. In fact, it still continues. Just read your local newspapers! Does a zoning law get changed to benefit someone who wants to build a shopping plaza? Does someone's home or farm get condemned so it can be sold to a developer?

So why does Public Government have to meet in Private Rooms? To prevent access by the public, who they are supposed to represent?

What does any politician have to gain by covering up the truth or arranging wanted verdicts in civil trials? Could it be MONEY?
Or are all the politicians in town really self-sacrificing saints?

I don't disagree with your comment on Blaisdell. But is there any documentary facts for this? Could it be he wasn't a "team player"?
Surely there was some 'cover story' for his dismissal.

In your or any other state, have you ever heard of any politician being convicted unless its due to Federal action? Or a falling out with more powerful forces in the state?

Which of them would squeal on the others?

Somebody said that Knowlton died in 1902, and was cremated. Cremation was then (?) against Christian practices. Did Knowlton really do this? Was he convinced he was going to hell? Why?

Since this was after the suspicious suicide of Wm S Borden, did he have a hand in this, and was caught? Its not unusual to cover up things like this. He was only about 50 years at the time.

As Kevin Phillips points out in "Wealth and Democracy ...", closeness to Government means Big Profits. See this history of the 19th and 20th century. Over 400 pages, slow reading, but worth it.

Gee -- I certainly didn't mean to push THAT particular button!  Brown's book does describe a conspiracy that he believed involved a number of prominent people in Fall River.  If I had been directly quoting from his book (which I wasn't), I would have said so.  The "vast conspiracy" phrase, I believe, comes from a later political figure.  As I recall, the exact phrase used was "vast right-wing conspiracy," so perhaps I should have made it "vast...conspiracy." I considered it apt and used it for that reason.  As far as I know, I have a perfect right to do that!  I also have a perfect right to express my own opinion of Arnold Brown's book, which I think is largely entertaining hogwash.  Incidentally, it might be time for some of us to revisit the "Rules of the Road" for this board, as I just did.  Referring to another poster's  "wrongmindedness" or "contrariness" sounds suspiciously like flaming to me.

(Message last edited Aug-23rd-02  10:40 PM.)

I may be naive, Ray, but I'm not really interested in living in the world you propose.
It sounds scary and corrupt...and if I can't change it, I'd prefer not to carry that burden of knowledge around with me.
I would never Trust anyone...It would be a depressing world...

You mention Civil trials ($)
gov. acts for private gain ($)
Condeming bldgs. ($)
zoning changes ($)
You left out construction bids...($)

But, I don't see any local, non-political murder trials listed...where's the $  ?
There would be no point.
Call me naive.

Rays, I hardly equate granting a zoning change with a double murder. Murders so ferocious we are still talking about them 110 years later. I don't think you could get 7, 10, 13 or however many people Brown claims were part of the "conspriracy" (yes, that is the word for it) to go along with freeing the true killer. Or at least who Brown claims is the killer.

Hosea M. Knowlton is buried in Rural Cemetery in New Bedford, MA. He died peacefully in 1902 at his summer home in Marion, MA.  Hardly a suicide.

I am not an expert on "non-political murders". Some previously talked about a murder of a lover in Maryland, which was the subject of a TV show earlier this year. No body ever found, but the brother of the murderer confessed to helping dispose of the body. This family was rich and politically well-connected. The reason few really rich people get convicted for murder is simply a technical one: they can hire it done so they are never found out! No, I can't give any examples of recent events. If unsolved, they go unpunished. Who did kill JFK? Or Karen Silkwood?

I think it is "wrong minded" to accuse AR Brown of writing "fiction" as some have done in the past. He came across this interesting story after his retirement, and spent years writing about it. An example to any non-professional writer.

So what about the two months sentence for Lizzie Grubman, the "publicity princess"? Did her important and influential "entertainment lawyer" father pull strings?

The basic fact in this case is that the jury said "not guilty".
Does anyone have any facts to say otherwise? If you THINK you know better, you may be fooling yourself. Yes, the actions of Judge Dewey were questioned, but such special actions were common then (or now).

It is more common in unpublicized civil cases. How many divorce cases have YOU been involved in? In one case of a co-worker he said his wife took a younger lover, moved in with him, had her lawyer order him out of his house, yet continue to pay the mortgage, and, then buy his wife a new car!!! Yes, I only heard one side.

Can some special interest get someone off for murder? Do you read the newspapers? Ever hear of judges changing death sentences on a seeming judicial whim? Could it be the reason why organized crime prospers in areas controlled by corporations? Is there organized crime in rural areas? Yes, its rare for the rich to commit or be convicted or murder. Because a lot of money avoids the frictions of most people.

Dr. Henry C Lee's recent book "Cracking Cases" covers spousal murders. It is still one area where emotions not money rule.

I am NOT saying "trust no one", but do YOU trust strangers?
Anyway, tell me the state and county that you live in. Are there really no scandals, or do you just skip these pages? And not everything that happens makes the newspapers.

My opinion of anyone who says AR Brown's book is "fiction" or "hogwash" is that they are at least "wrong minded", and not competent to judge. No responsible person calls it "fiction".

I thought he skipped some things to arrive at his conclusions; the letters in the Research section said the same. It is certainly true that an 1100 page book would have a limited sale, but a 320 page book is commercially viable. Compare book lengths on others in the "True Crime" section.

Perhaps those who never wrote and published a book are no experts?

I don't spend my limited time noting the news. But have you ever heard of a case where somebody rich or important was not even indicted after hitting and killing someone with his car? Or about officials getting a pass after a drunk driving arrest? Or after an arrest for bribery?

Or is this so common it escapes your notice?

I do trust strangers.
I have embraced the homeless.
I do not read the newspapers as I am allergic to newsprint once they changed over to vegetable dyes.
I happen to be reading Henry Lee at this moment.
I submit, once again, I do not care for the world you describe.
I am interested in a little family homicide, and the psychological aspects of people's behavior.

BTW:
Anyone around here seen EMMA?

I keep wondering why she's so quiet.
We barely speak of her.
She's an enigma?
Did she leave town to go on her visit knowing something was brewing?
Tacit approval?
Remember when she was "away at school" that year and a half?
Stef has theorized to me, maybe it was to seperate the sisters, as Emma's influence over Lizzie may have been becoming unacceptable to Andrew & Abby.

(Message last edited Aug-24th-02  4:20 PM.)

Thats an interesting point, Kat!  I don't recall reading about this, where is this written that Emma was away at school?  Book, Preliminary, etc.?

Then the thought came to my mind, besides possibly being a bad influence on "Baby Lizzie", perhaps Emma's behaviour was such that Andrew and Abby didn't want her around, period!  We know so little about Miss Emma and her ways, any little scraps we can find are fantastic in my mind!  Was Emma the evil instigator, was she an innocent bystander? 

INQUEST
EMMA
Pg. 107

....Q.  Have you lived at home most of the time?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Have you ever lived away from home?
A.  I was away at school about a year and a half.

Q.  That was sometime ago?
A.  Yes Sir.

Emma did not testify at the Preliminary Hearing.  Probably because she was not at home the day of the murders.  As I stated, that hearing was more relaxed as to details and rullings and was pro-prosecution.

Timelines take into consideration Emma's age when guesstimating when she would have been away at school.  (We don't know for sure she *slept away*.)
It would probably have been in the c.1865- 1869 time period, if the amount of time spent at school is INclusive.
Andrew re-married in June of 1865, when Emma was 14+...
Maybe the new marriage was the excuse to send her *away*?

I don't want to upset anyone, but does the Congressional Library, or any College Library classify Arnold R Brown's solution to the crime as fiction? Yes, I'm upset because of that provocation.

It is one thing to say that you don't believe it; that's OK. Brown admits he could not get proof for some of the things he wrote about. But compared to Radin, Spiering or Lincoln, or ? I think he did an excellent job.

A R Brown was NOT a professional writer; he found an interesting set of notebooks, investigated these statements, then wrote his book. It alone works because it explains why neither Lizzie, Bridget, or Emma were guilty, and, why there was something fishy about the trial [a cover-up].

Somebody who doesn't read or remember the newspapers. I forget things too. I was browsing a book about Watergate recently. Do you remember how ITT gave Nixon hundreds of thousands to fix an antitrust trial? Do you think NOBODY else ever fixed a trial on federal or state level?

I don't want to appear too suspicious, but in earlier times there were many young girls who "went away" to school, or visit realtives for months. And it was part of an education, so to speak.

Some talk about Lizzie never marrying, but what about Emma? Surely she was in the bloom of youth at one time? That baby picture of her with her Mom certainly makes her look cute.

Maybe there was a reason why Emma was such a mousy and stay-at-home character?

Nota Bene: This is strictly speculation on my part.

(Message last edited Aug-25th-02  3:36 PM.)

But, do we know for a fact that when Emma was younger that she was a stay-at-home?  Perhaps she did have beau or a least one at one time, afterall, she was a Borden and from a wealthy family which would make her a catch, I would think.

Once Abby came into the family Emma wouldn't have to stay at home and take care of Lizzie all the time, so, perhaps she took that opportunity to be out more? 

AR Brown speaks of Lizzie's prospects. Anyone less wealthy would be dismissed by Andy as a fortune hunter (as if that's nothing new!). Anyone with the same wealth could find better prospects.

Lizzie was the daughter of a self-made man (who was a MISER and would "cheat" anyone if he could get the better of him), not a born member of the leisure classes. They lived well below their means.
Weren't there many other examples of well-to-do ladies who never married in those times? Today, people seem to be less picky.

Weren't we talking about Emma?
Back in those days, depending on how strictly they adhered to the customs, the eldest daughter was called Miss Borden, and the next younger would be called Miss Lizzie.
This denotes their status in the family.
Usually the code or custom was the elder daughter was brought out first and then was married off first, before the next daughter ever contemplated entering the spotlight.  This ensured no competition bewtween daughters for beaux or husbands,  They called this introduction to Society and the application of finding a husband getting "Fired Off", or "Launched".
If the family strictly followed this practice it's possible the second daughter would not even get a chance at a "launch"--IF the eldest daughter objected...(She could argue that she still had a chance).  The only way a younger daughter could come out from under these restrictions was if she was "discovered" by an extremely elligible suitor who was willing to pay more for upsetting the protocol & regimine as the parent could complain that his giving of his daughter out of her place in line, would forever jeopardize the eldest's chances at snaring a husband.  It was a barganing tool for the father.  Also, if the eldest daughter did Not object, the next oldest daughter could go ahead of her.

I'm going to disagree with you about people not being
picky now, I think people are more picky, they
want Mr or Ms Right and will spend years looking under
every rock for them. People didn't have as many choices before &
you had to marry by a certain age or you were not thought
of as being wanted. If your parents didn't palm you
off on someone everyone felt sorry for them. Perhaps Lizzie
& Emma never married because they didn't have to take just anyone
because they didn't have to be provided for. Maybe they were
swingers.

  Lizzie and Emma; swingers!!!    And Abby liked to dress up as a dominitrix and spank Andrew!  Kimberly, you crack me up!  You definitely take me down the roads less traveled!!!


Kat, thanks for the Victorian dating protocol info, fascinating stuff!  I wonder if Emma ever had any prospects to be "launched"?  By today's standards she is plain, but, shes not hideous.  She may have been the perfect little catch for a man looking for a wife.  And, we have to remember Abby was already into spinsterhood when Andrew proposed to her, Emma still had a chance, I think. 

Oh man, that image of Abby & Andrew just gives
me chills.

Can you give us a source (or sources) for this info about Victorian "dating" practices?   I've always thought they were a bit more flexible than that.  A lot probably depended on the culture from which the family came, whether the family was wealthy or poor, etc.
In my own family (English ancestry; moderate means; mostly farmers), I've heard that the youngest daughter was actually expected to remain single while the old folks were living.  That was so there would be somebody to nurse them in their later years.  (Can't you just imagine Lizzie doing that?)  My father came from a large family (eleven) almost evenly divided between males and females.  He was born in 1901, but some of his siblings were about a generation older, which would take them back into the 19th century.  The oldest daughter was sent away to normal school to learn teaching, so that she could return home and teach the younger ones.  Unfortunately, she met a young man while she was there.  She did return home and teach for a short period, but then she chose marriage and a family.  The youngest daughter turned out to be something of a social butterfly, as well as the beauty of the family, so she married young too.  In that case, the second-youngest was then designated to be the old folks' caretaker.  Drat!  Even though she didn't get sent away to school, she managed to meet an eligible man and elope with him.  All of the girls eventually wound up married, and the whole family had to chip in and hire a caretaker.  Of course, we're talking about 30-40 years later than the Borden tale and a different part of the country.
Nevertheless, I think what was "s'posed" to happen and what did happen were sometimes very different.  I've never heard of that custom of calling the eldest daughter by the family name and the others by their given names. The examples I can think of are fictional, so I'd like to do some more reading on that one.

Annette - I guess Lizzie went to "abnormal" school! ;]

This would be some fictional, some biographical but mainly British custom c. 1800's,  '40's. 50's, 60's. 
I meant to be more clear and specify English ways...somehow I left that out.
Thanks for your extra input..

I think perhaps both of the Borden daughters attended that institution!  Isn't "normal school" an odd term?  It was still in use when I was a teenager.  I just looked it up on the hope of learning what "normal" means in this context, but my dictionary wasn't helpful.  It simply says it's from the French term "ecole normale," which (of course) would be "normal school."  Big help!

Edisto, thats so interesting that you mention that, about the youngest daughter staying home to care for her parents in their old age.  That is the custom in so many cultures!  Have you ever seen that wonderful movie, Like Water For Chocolate?  It covers just that point exactly! 

A "normal school" is more simply called "teacher's college" since the 1950s. It may well derive from French custom. Actually, before the Great Depression, just graduating from high school was enough to become a teacher; most people then went to work at 14 after leaving Grammar School (do they still call it that?). Learn by doing, succeed by success? Abe Lincoln NEVER went to law school, etc.

Like the Union army's custom of calling battles and naming armies from the local river. "Army of the Potomac", "Battle of Antietam", etc. Rivers rarely disappear or get destroyed, unlike some towns.

Speaking of Miss Emma and her trip to Scotland.....Does anyone know where she visited while she was there?  One of my good friends just got back from a trip to Amsterdam and Scotland.  While in Scotland he stayed in the capital which is Edinburgh and also visited Glasgow.  It sounds like a marvelous place to visit if you're into castles and such!  I wondered where Emma went there and who she went with?  Was she researching family history?  Did she bring back a tin of Shortbread cookies for Lizzie? 

Emma supposedly made her trip to Scotland in 1906. By then she and Lizzie were no longer speaking.  Sorry Liz, no shortbread for you.

The only place I've seen Emma's trip referred to is Rebello. Even there its only a one line entry = "Emma traveled to Scotland in 1906."

Thanks for the info, Harry!  Hmmm, for some reason I thought that the trip was earlier then 1906?  I thought it was still in the 1890s, oh well, I guess you're right, no shortbread for Lizzie in her Ain Countrie.  These are the things that I find so fascinating, the bits that make these people that we have read about more human.  I wish we just had a little more info.  *sigh*

Recently, I was reading an actual letter or postcard sent by Emma from Scotland.  It did mention one of the places Emma visited.  I think I know where I saw it.  Let me do a little snooping, if I can work it in today.  I'm getting ready to hit the road again.

Thanks, Edisto! 

Is that the card mentioned in Rebello, pg. 299?

"Emma sent a postcard to Mrs. George S. Brigham on August 12, 1906, from GLASGOW, Scotland.

'Been to Sterling Castle, down Caledonian Canal through Frossachs....Having a great deal of rain the last two weeks...'
(signed E.L.B.,Aug. 12)"
-from FRHS Archives

Yes!  Thank you, Kat!  I thought sure it was in Rebello, but of course I had to work my way through his index, and I hadn't yet found it.  I had begun to wonder if I'd seen it somewhere else, such as the FRHS site.  Not too much info, but it does give us a small idea of what Emma saw on her vacation.  Doesn't sound too exciting, does it?

You're welcome.
I haven't been doing much around here lately and it was time I chipped in again to help.
I'm pretty familiar with Rebello, and I don't use his index.
How about we get one for Susan, tho?
I don't know how she got to 1,000 posts without one...Amazing!

As to Emma's trip, it would take a week to get to Scotland from Boston or wherever?
Then she was there already for 2 weeks when she wrote (if she wrote), so she could have stayed on longer and traveled about, maybe into England.  (No pets to get home to, right?)  Anyway a week BaCK...and she could have been traveling maybe a good 4 to 6 weeks?
I have not even ever had the luxury of traveling for that length of time....

PS:  Where to on the road did you go-ith?  Antiquing?  Or groceries and Dr. like me?

Thank you, both!  I just noticed that last night that I was over 1000 posts, boy, this girl loves to talk!  No wonder my dad called me, Minnie Mouth (like Minnie Mouse) as a little girl!  When my financial straits straighten themselves out, perhaps I will invest in Rebello, but, then, there is always the Preliminary to get....hmmmm.

Close to Glasgow is Linlithgow with Linlithgow Palace, Mary Queen of Scots was born there.  There is a boat tour you can take on the Loch to see it.  Whiskey in Gaelic means, The Water Of Life, though I don't think Emma had any of that on her trip.  But, was she a teetotaler like Lizzie?  She didn't belong to the WCTU.  I wonder if we can judge Emma's trip abroad in length to when Lizzie took the Grand Tour? 

Oh, I've got nearly back-to-back reunions this summer/fall.  My old high school had ANOTHER reunion this year (this time five classes - two on each side of mine).  My family reunion is next weekend, and I'm going to pick up my old buddy in N. C. and take her to S. C. with me.  They can teach her to speak geechee (sp? I can't believe that word's not in my dictionary!).

I try to do without the index to some extent too.  My method is to locate the section of the book in which the info should appear (not always the section in which it actually does appear) and then go to the index and look for page numbers within that section that apply to the person I'm researching.  It only works so well and is very time-consuming.

This would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful.

This constant searching of Rebello.

We ought to each post our experiences and the worst one we had...like one WHOLE night I spent looking for ONE thing.  Admittedly during commercials over a football game, but Still!

You making a new skirt reminiscent of the 70's?
I have Never been to a reunion of any kind, nor been invited.  It's not like I don't live in the same house as I did when I graduated high school....

Nope, no retro skirt this time.  Incidentally, there's a site on the 'Net that has a picture of me in my retro wrap skirt; I'lll get the URL and post it.  Remember my friend said, "This looks like the kind of affair to which you should have worn a solid color"?  So I took her advice and wore a solid color -- navy blue.  My husband said, "Nobody will ever know you found it in the garbage."  What would I do without relatives and friends?  (For the record, I did not get it out of the garbage!  I got it at an auction in a box of old linens.)  My friend who's going to S. C. with me also lives in the same house where she grew up.  She gets invited to all the reunions but rarely attends.  I think it's more interesting if you live out of town and haven't been seeing these people all the time.  That site is:
              http://members.tripod.com/fhsclass51
If you click on the "reunions" button, you'll get a group picture of a lot of old people and me.  I'm to the right of center in front, the only one with a long, printed skirt on.


(Message last edited Sep-4th-02  9:04 PM.)

Are you the lil' devil in the pink flowered long skirt?

You look like Katherine Hellman...is that her name?  From "Soap"?  So pretty with great bone structure!

(Message last edited Sep-4th-02  9:32 PM.)

Oh my goodness, Kat, you're right!  If thats our Edisto, she looks like Katherine!  Who also played Emma Borden in the Legends movie. 

Isn't "Fayettenam" the location where Jeffrey MacDonald's family was murdered? Did you read "Fatal Justice"? Or "Tainted Evidence" which has a chapter on this case?

EVERYONE here will be educated by reading this chapter in "TE".

Found a little blip on the internet about Emma and apparently its from Rebello!  Don't have the full story, just one line about Emma visiting the White Mountains in New Hampshire.  And there was something else about while Emma was living in Providence, Rhode Island with her cousin, Preston Gardner, that she traveled quite a bit.  Anyone with Rebello have more on this?  Anyone? 

Does 'Edisto" refer to the river or the island?

It would probably be easier if you transcribed the "blurb" than for us to go searching our Rebello's.

There was a manifest with Emma's name on it for inclusion into an excursion to the White Mountains, with a travel agancy, but it turned out there were several Emma Bordens in the directory at that time.  No trip was proved.

Oh, that may have been what was mentioned.  It was just a page and someone had asked a question on whether or not Emma was a recluse or traveled alot.  The answer, which I see now may be incorrect, was that Emma traveled to the White Mountains and they gave Rebello as the source and that she traveled alot with her cousin, Preston.  I don't think what was there was directly transcribed from Rebello. 

I don't know about her traveling with Preston Gardner, but Emma lived with him and his family in Providence at one time.  (Rebello, 344-5)
"SEVENTH (Emma's will)
I give and bequeath to Preston H. Gardner, of said City of Providence, the sum of Fifteen Thousand Dollars ($15,000) if he shall survive me, and if he shall not survive me I give and bequeath the said sum...to his wife, Mary E. Gardner, and to his daughter, Maude Peterson Gardner, to be shared equally between them, and in the case of the death of either of them then the whole of said sum to the survivor."

Rebello said Preston Gardner was a "distant relative."
Now "Orrin Gardner" is more interesting!

 
The 1905 Fall River City Directory lists Emma as "removed to Providence Rhode Island" (Rebello, 311).

Rebello also mentions (p.7)that Emma travelled to Scotland in 1906. So maybe she was living with the Gardners at that time?

(Newspapers reported she was living in Fairhaven from 1905-8. But do we believe the newspapers?)   

However, Rebello says it's possible they had it right because the Providence City Directory does not list Emma as living at Preston Gardner's home at 211 Hope Street until 1909. But perhaps she just wanted to keep a low profile for a few years after her break with Lizzie and was in fact in Providence as the Fall River Directory indicates?

All this provides is more room for speculation, I guess.

Maybe Emma did travel with the Gardners--to ScotLAND?
She would have had to go with SOMEBODY!?

I agree, Kat!  Somehow I don't see our Miss Emma traveling that far alone.  Yes, she was past the age where I think she needed a chaperone or escort, but, thats an awful long way to travel by oneself!    BTW, who is Orrin Gardner?  I feel like I should know who it is and don't! 

Leonard Rebello owns three books signed by Lizzie Borden and presented to Emma in March, 1894.  The title of the volumes is "Ireland; its Scenery, Character," written by Mr. and Mrs H.C. Hall. The volumes were published in 1841/2/3. The books contain numerous maps and steel engravings. Copies of these books are presently being offered by several book sellers.  Prices ranges from $500 to $1500 for the set.

I often wonder if Emma included Ireland in her itinerary when she made her trip to Scotland in 1906? To the best of my knowledge there is no documentation to that effect.

I wondered why the "March 1894" sounded familiar.
Gotta get my brain in gear here...

That's the date of Emma's letter to Cummings readying herself for a dress for the Summer.

It's also Emma's BirTHDAY, March1.

RADIN, EDWARD
Lizzie Borden   The Untold Story, 1961, pg. 237-8 (hard)

"There are some indications that romance may have entered Lizzie Borden's life about three years after her trial, when she was a woman of thirty-six. The Fall River News, which carefully checked its stories before using them, published a brief item that Lizzie's friends were expecting her to announce her engagement to a Swansea schoolteacher. It hinted that the couple had known each other since childhood; he had lived on a farm near where Lizzie had spent her summers. The story was picked up by the wire services and out-of-town reporters soon swarmed into Fall River and Swansea. The schoolteacher went into hiding. Lizzie, of course, maintained her aloofness from the press. If anything ever convinced Lizzie that the blight of the trial had made her public property, it probably was this incident. No engagement was ever announced and Lizzie never married.

One may reasonably ask why Lizzie Borden did not move away from Fall River and lose herself in the anonymity of a large city. The answer lies in her character. She was a stubborn woman and as she said at the end of her trial, 'I am going home and I am going to stay there.'

The story of the expected engagement appeared on December 10, 1896. I found a letter written by Lizzie dated December 12, two days later, which could indicate that there was no truth to the engagement story, but it may have been referring to some other incident. Lizzie Borden had, from a researcher's viewpoint, an irritating habit of starting all her letters with the salutation, 'My dear Friend,' thus making it impossible to identify the person to whom it was written. This letter shows Lizzie's attitude toward the stories circulating about her.

MY DEAR FRIEND:
I am more sorry than I can tell you that you have had any trouble over the false and silly story that has been about the last week or so. How or when, it started I have not the least idea. But never for a moment did I think you or your girls started it. Of course I am feeling very badly about it but I must just bear [it] as I have in the past. I do hope you will not be annoyed again. Take care of yourself, so you can get well.

Yours sincerely,
L. A. BORDEN"

--This is the "apology" letter referred to earlier.
----------------------
Knowlton Papers, FRHS, 1994, Glossary A, pg. 434:

"GARDNER, ORRIN AUGUSTUS 1867 - 1944: born in Swansea, Massachusetts, son of Henry Augustus and Caroline Cole (Mason) Gardner. A graduate of Warren, Rhode Island, high school, he attended Bryant and Stratton Business College and then Rhode Island Normal School.  A teacher in Tiverton, Rhode Island, as well as Swansea and Fall River, Massachusetts, he later served as principal in two Fall River schools. He was employed for a time as an agent of the trustees of the State Industrial School for Boys and, following retirement from that position, taught at St. Andrew's School in Sewanee, Tennessee. He died in Dighton, Massachusetts. A cousin of the Misses Emma L. and Lizzie A. Borden, he was summoned as a witness but was not called upon to testify."
------------------------
Rebello, Len
Lizzie Borden Past and Present, 1999, pg. 342:

"Unknown Newspaper Headline:
[Emma's] Funeral Monday, Remains at Home of Cousin, Orrin A. Gardner at Touisset -- Hour of Service Not Made Public -- To Be Buried Beside Her Father", June 11, 1927.

pg. 343:
LAST WILL [etc., of Emma Borden]:
"FIFTH:  I give and bequeath to my cousin, Orrin A. Gardner, of Touisset, Mass., the sum of Ten Thousand Dollars ($10,000), and all of my household furniture and furnishings, including all books, pictures, ornaments and personal effects not otherwise disposed of in this will, if he shall survive me."

pg. 346:
Emma left money to establish & disburse an "Andrew J. Borden Scholarship" and nominated Orrin Gardner as one of two "Trustees" to choose and deliver to an Appointee monies for "advanced education".
--------------------
Hoffman, Paul
Yesterday In Old Fall River, 2000, pg. 135:

"In a newspaper article dated December 10, 1896, the Boston Globe announced that Lizzie Borden planned to marry a Mr. Gardner, who taught school, at Christmastime.  It was possible that the Mr. Gardner referred to in the article was Orrin Augustus [Gardner].  Lizzie, of course, never married.  Lizzie left Orrin Gardner $10,000 in her will.**

Some speculated that either the newspaper publicity made Gardner shy away from marriage or that Lizzie did not want to submit him to the inevitable negative public exposure.  Others believed that the entire story was simply fabricated."
--------------------
--**Can find no reference to Orrin Gardner in Lizzie's Will...maybe Hoffman means "Emma"?  Notice Radin does not name Gardner from the piece in the Fall River News.  It's VERY interesting that Lizzie should write this "apology" letter 2 days after the news story of an impending engagement, though Radin was careful NOT to draw any conclusions.

--So what's going on here?  He is 16 years younger than Emma, and 7 years younger than Lizzie.  There was a "rumor" of an engagement between he and Lizzie;  a letter to a dear friend, that is apologetic toward someone being involved with a "Lizzie rumor"; and then we have no mention of this Orrin Gardner in LIZZIE's will, but he IS in Emma's...? 

I was wondering, while I collected all this info, if maybe EMMA was the intended fiance....

Is she talking about his students when she says
'But never for a moment did I think you or *your girls* started it'?

Marrying Orrin?  Their cousin?  Just how distant of a cousin was Orrin?  Emma engaged, that would be something!

Kimberly, I've always assumed with that letter from Lizzie that "the girls" were his students.  Anyone know otherwise? 

Okay, I just found the weirdest thing surfing the net.  Does anyone have any info on this?  Is this our Emma L. Borden?  Our Emma died in the 1920s, this picture is from 1942, what gives?



Following the picture is a list of names that goes on and on for people on the Fairhaven Honor Roll, Emma L. Borden is there in the list, first page.

http://www.millicentlibrary.org/panel1.htm

It didn't occur to me to assume the "girls" were this person's students.  A teacher would have a few of either sort in class, wouldn't they?

I figured it was a reference to female cousins or nieces.

If the letter is to a female friend, the same would hold true(?)

Well, my thought on it, Kat, was that maybe he taught at an all girls' school?  But, your idea is just as plausible.  Its just when I heard teacher and "his girls", I assumed. 

Rebello, 313:

It seems Emma died in Newmarket, N.H. on June 10.  She had been living with Annie C. Conner.
For Emma's BODY to be resting at Orrin Gardner's place by June 11, that Annie must have shipped that body out of there pretty quick!
I wonder how far that is?
Probably by train?

From what I recall reading, yes, Emma's body was shipped by train, but, that is fast!  Perhaps right after the doctor or coroner was called to pronounce her dead, she was prepared and shipped right on out of there? 

I finally got around to reading this while getting caught up after my latest trip.  Geez...I had hoped you didn't mean Katherine Helmond, but I guess you did, since she's the one who played Emma Borden in "Legend."  Well, I told you I look like a gargoyle in pictures, which is why I'd never post one here.  I've always thought Ms. Helmond looks like someone who didn't know where to stop with the plastic surgery (a female Michael Jackson).  Thank Heaven I've never been accused of looking anything like her by anyone who has seen me in person!  I used to get Debbie Reynolds a lot and even Jacqueline Kennedy on occasion.  That was fairly flattering.  But Katherine Helmond?  I think it's time for ME to see a plastic surgeon.  I guess it's not quite as bad as what someone told my friend Ann recently.  She was told that she resembles Eleanor Roosevelt!  Big-time insult!

I'm not really answering my own posts this time -- just trying to get caught up with the posts here.  I recall reading that the letter Lizzie sent about her purported engagement was actually addressed to her dressmaker.  Apparently it was thought that the engagement rumor started with the dressmaker, perhaps because Lizzie had ordered a lot of clothing that might be suitable for a trousseau.  The "girls" referred to were the dressmaker's helpers.  To me, that makes a lot of sense.  I thought I'd read this in the LBQ, but a search last night turned up nothing.  (Another source that needs indexing!) I'll keep looking.  I know David Kent ("Forty Whacks") thought the letter was sent to Lizzie's supposed fiance, but I believe somebody else tracked down the actual recipient.  It's always seemed to me that Lizzie avoided the company of men when she could, with rare exceptions, such as Dr. Bowen.  Remember that cutting letter that Jennings sent to the unfortunate Curtis Piece (whose name is spelled "Pierce" in Rebello's index but "Piece" in his own letter)?  I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with sexual orientation, but Lizzie did seem to prefer the company of her own sex.

The "Green Beret" murders were, as I recall, actually committed at Fort Bragg, where the family lived in base housing.  Fayetteville and Bragg have been, until recent years, entirely separate communities.  When I was a kid, there were stories about signs that read, "No soldiers or dogs allowed."  Now, for some reason, Fayetteville has decided to embrace the military.  There's a gorgeous new Airborne Museum right in the downtown area, and I do mean GORGEOUS.  For anyone traveling I-95, it's well worth getting off and taking a look-see.  The subject matter isn't of particular interest to me, but even so I enjoyed my visit.  There's even an attraction that lets you experience the dubious thrill of jumping out of an airplane.

I would rather look like Katherine Helmond than Debbie Reynolds.
Of course looking like Jacqueline Kennedy would beat them all.
I don't think having someone say I looked like Eleanor Roosevelt
would be an insult, she wasn't 'pretty' but she made up for it
with her works. I have a picture where I look just like
Patricia Neal, I really look nothing like Patricia Neal. You said
you look like a gargoyle in your pictures, I always look like
Tweety Bird.

Edisto, I'm sorry!  Didn't know that you had an aversion to Katherine Helmond.  I like the way she looks, but, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I apologize.  I'll have to see if I can find one of my worst pictures and post it and you can tell me I look like Quasimodo.  Sorry. 

Actually I was the one who thought that originally, and brought up the comparison...

If the *engagement rumor* started with the dressmaker, why would Lizzie be apologizing to HER?
Other than that, would it bring in extra business?
I hope you can find this reference.
You don't suppose it was during a message board discussion, do you?

This is from Spiering, page 189+

Maplecroft was Lizzie's refuge and her prison, and within it she was determined to become self-sufficient. Unable to shop without being mobbed by staring crowds, she had all her groceries delivered to a designated box at the back of the house.
But the press would not leave her alone. On December 10, 1896, a brief article which appeared in the Boston Globe was picked up by newspapers throughout the country:

IS LIZZIE BORDEN TO MARRY?

Fall River, Mass., Dec. 10--Friends of Lizzie Andrew Borden, who was once accused of the murder of her father and stepmother and whose trial was one of the most famous the country has known, are congratulating her upon the approach of her marriage. The husband-to-be is one Mr. Gardner, a school teacher of the village of Swansea, which lies a few miles across the bay to the west of the city. He has been a friend of Miss Borden since childhood days, which they spent upon adjoining farms. The engagement has been rumored about for weeks, but it lacked confirmation until a few days ago, when it was learned that Miss Borden has given to a well-known dressmaker an order for a trousseau. Mr. Gardner has had erected in South Somerset a fine new house. It is said that the wedding will probably take place about Christmas.

The residents of the farm adjacent to the one which Andrew Borden had owned in Swansea were named Gardner. And the eldest son was a school teacher. But the story of Lizzie's romance and impending marriage had been fabricated.

Soon after the article appeared, reporters from out-of-town newspapers flooded Fall River.

Gardner went into hiding and Lizzie withdrew behind the oak doors of Maplecroft, where she was constantly harassed. The incident infuriated and disturbed her. Two days later she wrote to Mrs. Cummings, the dressmaker Emma had written to earlier. The letter's significance was that it revealed the strain Lizzie was under.

It was from Mrs. Cummings, whose shop on Elm Street stood beside Andrew Borden's Union Savings Bank, that Lizzie supposedly had ordered her wedding gown.

Thanks, Harry.  I don't think that's the reference I was looking for, but it is essentially the same info.  I think the reason Lizzie was apologizing to Ms. Cummings is that the dressmaker had been accused (by someone) of being the source of the rumors, and Lizzie was saying that she didn't think the rumors originated there.  I think she was also apologizing for the fact that the press was annoying Ms. Cummings and her "girls," trying to get more info on the "engagement."

That sounds about right to me too.  As I had stated when I first had read of this incident, I obviously didn't have all the facts and thought that the letter had been addressed to Mr. Gardner.  I assumed it was his schoolgirls that were referred to in the letter. 

(Message last edited Sep-15th-02  9:57 PM.)

This is all very interesting.  I'm glad this whole subject came up.  It's been so long since I've read "the Authors".
So Radin reports the rumors but is careful to draw no conclusions...yet he seemed to draw us toward an assumption after all.  That's a pretty good trick of writing!
Now Spiering lays out his interpretation, yet it also sounds plausible.
All I can say is:  Lizzie COULD have written that note to Either Gardner or Cummings, and SHOULD have written it to Both.

Is it just me, or does Lizzie kind of sound long-suffering, or *poor-me*?
Like:  I'll just have to bear this new indignity like I have done and will continue to do.

BUT she doesn't Explain anything, ever....

Kat, would you expect any less from our "Sphinx of coldness"? 

I really have no aversion to Katherine Helmond.  I think she did a fine job as Emma Borden in the "Legend" movie.  It's just that I've always thought of her as bizarre-looking and not very attractive.  In fact, I've read a couple of reviews that agree with that assessment.
Reminds me of the time I told my older son I thought he resembled an actor named John Beck.  I thought John Beck was a perfectly presentable-looking guy, but the next week my son found a movie review that said, "John Beck is too goofy-looking to be a leading man."  He's never let me forget that!  ("Hi, Mom, it's your goofy-looking son here.")

Well, just so you know I meant no disrespect to you.  But, you have firsthand experience on how it works and can backfire on you. 

Found this interesting site, they have the Astrological Life Path report for Emma, but, not for Lizzie at the moment, strange!  Its a rather long read, but, interesting, check it out! 

http://rightplace.net/a/c/Emma-Borden.htm

I don't think anyone knows what time Emma was born, but the site aught to confirm to the public where they got their birth data, 11:55 pm, I wonder?

I wondered that too, Carol.  Would a child born at home have an official birthtime listed by the attending doctor or midwife? 

I think whoever took account of the time, at a home "event," was believed, and that was what was put down into the record.

When our mom passed away my sister and I were alone with her and the time we specified was put  on all official papers, unquestioned...I suppose we could have said anything, but we knew to check the time...most people might.

Kat, do you know of an official time being given for Emma's birth?  Do you or Stefani have any info, copy of a birth certificate or something?  Just curious. 

Nope.
Stef was sending for these things but first asked about costs and didn't receive a reply, as I recall...

Thats cool!  So, there are actual documents out there then!  I still agree with Carol that there should have been something on that site as to where the birth info came from, because the birthdate is in books and websites, the birthtime isn't! 

When I was trying to track down the actual times of birth I wrote the county clerk in Fall River and they sent back a letter they didn't have the birth times recorded. So my official inquiry couldn't be answered. I asked Terence Duniho if he knew if the papers of the times carried the Borden sisters birth data and he said they didn't, not even a notice of the birth itself.  So we are left by trying to get something that was written in a family bible or book, which I have no idea that such a thing exists.  Lizzie's books were given most to Grace Howe, I believe and Helen Leighton.  Would anyone be able to contact those ladies descendants to see if such a thing as a record of birth exist in any book passed on to them? If I was back east I would try to contact the Howe's.  I would love to talk to them also about Eleanor Roosevelt because of the connection of Mrs. Howe to the Roosevelts.  She was married to the man who worked for Franklin Roosevelt, and Eleanor was always one of my favorite people.
That's a reason why I don't think Lizzie "did it."  If she did I would suspect that Mrs. Howe wouldn't have been a life long friend.

The reason the birth time is important is that if you don't have it all that information about the Ascendant (which changes every two hours) and the moon (which might be in one of two signs during the day)and the house rulerships is all invalid.  But never the less, the broad general info on the major planet positions and major aspects would be useful to flesh out a psychological profile, but it's hit or miss without the total picture.

One site, I know because I asked,that had some astro info on it on a Borden said they just used noon, which some astrologers do if they have nothing else for time.

Rebello, 310, (and other places--Pearson, Legends of Lizzie):
Grace Howe may have been loyal to Lizzie but her husband
Col. Howe gave his opinion to Pearson that he thought EMMA did it.  Pearson disagreed with him.
I hate to infer this, but being a substantial legatee of an acquitted person tried for murder, may influence one's loyalties?

Thanks for all the info and insight, Carol! 

It is so cool when Carol comes here.
People actually tell me so.

It would be cool if she came around more often!  But, I won't push a good thing! 

I don't see how being a legatee to Lizzies fortune would have influenced Grace Howe because she was and remained a friend of Lizzies BEFORE Lizzie died and bequeathed her part of the estate. I don't think Grace Howe was bullied or seduced into being a friend for life on the supposition that she would get part of Lizzies fortune.
From what I have read of Mr. Howe in relation to Eleanor Roosevelt I would suspect she wouldn't have agreed that Mr. Howe's opinion was something to honor. As I recall Eleanor Roosevelt didn't think too highly of Mr. Howe.  It is possible that Mrs. Howe was completely buffaloed by Lizzie, conned into believing Lizzie didn't murder her parents, or just didn't admit it to herself, yet hung around this woman she really hated, but that usually happens to women who believe their coniving or deceptive husbands or others who have a hold on them.  What hold did Lizzie have on Mrs. Howe who was an independent woman whose income Lizzie didn't control. It probably  came as quite a surprise to Mrs. Howe to find out she got what she did. Anyway, that's what I think, if you "axe" me.

Wasn't Mrs. Howe the first to say "it was really Emma" who did the crime? I interpret that as saying "an unsuspected child of Andy", eg the testimony of Hawthorne and Eagan.

Notice how the mystery and puzzles are solved by AR Brown's book?

It is simple: is there any place on the birth certificate for the time? Maybe that was considered an inconsequential detail.

I don't know when birth certificates first began to be required or used. Perhaps back then no one had to prove they were born at a certain time or place such as we have to today with all the government and other papers and documentation necessary to our lives.
But if a doctor did not issue a certificate back then, and it did not get reported by a newspaper or public authority, then all there was for a family to do for a record was either list the birth time in their own books or records, or just rely on someone's memory. But yes, there is a place for the time on birth certificates today, I don't know when that began.

People's birth would be recorded in the parish Baptismal records; or a family bible. It depended on the record keeping in vogue.

Speaking of Miss Emma in another aspect I was wondering where she slept the nights Saturday and Sunday.  Alice Russell says she slept in Mr. & Mrs. B.'s room Thursday and Friday (August 4 and 5) and she slept in Emma's room Saturday and Sunday (August 6 and 7).  Alice then left for home Monday morning after she and the sister's had that talk about the dress burning incident.  If Alice was in Emma's room and Emma had come home Thursday evening, where did Emma sleep.  I think Uncle John was there in the house too those nights. Bridget was gone Thursday night, was there Friday night, gone Saturday and Sunday but came back Monday a.m. only to leave again.  Does anyone know what the sleeping arrangements were for those in the house over those days if I am not too bold to inquire.  I am assuming Lizzie was in her own bed all nights. 

I would assume when Alice was in Emma's room, Emma slept in Mrs. & Mrs. B.'s room and vice versa.

The choices are limited.  The guest bedroom was probably still occupied by Uncle Morse. I don't think Emma would use it even if Morse slept in the attic room. I know I wouldn't. 

I doubt if Emma would use Bridget's room or the other attic bedroom and be up on the third floor all alone.

Have any ideas about why Emma wouldn't want to sleep in her own room? Maybe she wanted a larger room too now that the old folks were gone?  Maybe she wanted a room with her own lock on it?  I suppose Morse could have used the guest room as it evidently wasn't considered a crime scene that needed to be secured by the police even on the day of the murders and maybe a bloody room didn't matter much to a man who used to be a butcher? 

I've wondered about that myself, and then why the switch between her and Alice.  Alice said she made a trip home Thursday. I assume it was to pick up whatever clothing she was going to need for her stay. Maybe it was just too much trouble to switch the first night (Thursday).  Friday night's another question.

I could see her moving in permanently into the master bedroom eventually but I thought she wasted no time in doing it.

Was it Saturday after the funeral, that Alice found the club under Andrew's bed?
It seems to have freaked her out and she mentioned that she thought it might appear to implicate her.  (I never knew what she meant by that).
The girls were asked about that club and apparently were unconcerned about it.
I think Alice switched rooms because of it, and that might mean that nice, accomodating Emma traded with her until Alice left--though Alice makes it known that is NOT why she traded...

Yes, I remember reading Alice saying the stick or club wasn't the reason.  I guess once the door between Lizzie's room and the master bedroom was open it didn't make much difference. Essentially it became all one big room with the doors open.

That club has always bothered me.  Not that it was a weapon but how did the police miss it in their searches?  They were supposed to be looking for things like that. That, and some other things, give some idea of how thorough the inital searches were.

(Message last edited Sep-25th-02  7:22 PM.)

Harry, didn't Alice make some sort of statement that she didn't see the club under the bed the first night, but, my presumption here, after the police searched again she saw it almost sticking out from underneath the bed?  That was my understanding of it at least, that the police pulled the club out, looked at it and probably said, Nah, we're looking for an ax or hatchet, not a club, and then put it back.  Does that sound reasonable? 

From page 39 of the witness statements.  Police Officer Hydes notes:

"About fifteen minutes after this conversation, Miss Russell came to me and told me she would like me to come up stairs, she wanted me to see something. She led the way to the southeast bedroom, and pointing to something that lay on the floor under the head of the bed, said "what's that?" I picked it up. It was a club, about twenty inches long. She
said I slept here last night; if that was there last night, I dont see how I missed seeing it. Miss Russell seemed very much excited, and begged me to tell no one but the Marshal. Mrs. Charles Holmes was present at the time."

I remember someone (Hilliard?) saying they dismissed the club as not important. In any case I don't think they had said that at the time of the room switch

Do you think that maybe it was Emma's idea to switch rooms and not Alice's?  Perhaps it was something as simple as that John Morse was in the guest room which shared a common wall with Emma's and maybe he snored like a buzz saw and she couldn't sleep? 

It wasn't until I looked for it that I realized they had spent 2 1/2 pages asking Alice about that stick!  That must mean something to someone...

Alice at the Prelim., pg. 152-3&4.

Q.  That is one reason I postponed it as long as I could. Is there any other fact that you can tell me that you have not told me?
A.  The morning of the funeral I went out to do some errands; and when I came back my hair was tumbled, and I took my dress waist off, and combed my hair. When I had gotten through I put my waist on again, and had nearly finished it, and I turned, and I saw something in under the bed that frightened me almost to pieces.
Q.  You were sleeping in the house?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  That big stick?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  It is the one you gave to the marshal, the round whittled stick?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Had you been sleeping in the house every night?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  You slept there that night?
A.  Yes Sir, that is what frightened me so much, it was in my room.
Q.  That was the room Mr. and Mrs. Borden occupied?
A.  Yes Sir. I occupied that when I was there.
Q.  When you went into the daughters room, did you have to go down stairs and come up?
A.  You dont have to if the other side was unlocked.
Q.  After the tragedy was it unlocked, so you could go through?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  It was open then?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  After the tragedy the door was  unlocked?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  So when you wanted to go to Lizzie or Emma's, you went in through?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  When did you first see that stick?
A.  I think between nine and ten. I dont think I could have been gone longer than that.
Q.  It was not while you were at the funeral?
A.  No Sir. When I came back, my clothes were there, my dress was there, I went into this room I had occupied to change my dress, and turned, when I saw it.
Q.  Where was it exactly?
A.  At the head of the bed.
Q.  Under?          
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  How much in sight?
A.  So that I saw it as I turned.
Q.  Had it been there before?
A.  I had not seen it before.
Q.  Had you done, what they say women do?
A.  No, I had not done that.
Q.  Had not looked under the bed?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  So it may have been under the bed all the time?
A.  Yes. I think in my frightened condition, as I look at it now, it might have been there. Then I was terribly alarmed, because I felt as if in some way it implicated me.
Q.  About as much as it implicates me, just about.
A.  Yes, as I look at it now.
Q.  When you saw it, it was plainly visible?
A.  Yes, I saw the end of it.
Q.  How much was it out? Indicate by your fan.
A.  It was not out from under the bed at all. I could see a little ways under the bed.
Q.  It had no flap hanging down, a modern french bedstead?
A.  It was not a french bedstead; it had no varlance.
Q.  You would have been likely to have seen it before that if it had been in the same place?
A.  I thought so.
Q.  Did you ever find out what it was?
A.  I think it was something that her father had kept in the house.
Q.  Who told you that?
A.  I told it to Detective Handscomb; and he asked Emma. I don't think the girl knew anything about that I found it.
---------------
Q.  You spent the night there?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Where did you sleep that night?
A.  The first two nights I slept in what was Mr. and Mrs. Borden's room; the next two night I slept in what was Emma's room.
Q.  After you found that stick, you changed?
A.  No, that did not make me change.
Q.  You did change after that?
A.  Yes, Saturday I found the stick.

I think she changed because of the stick.  I think she denied that as a way of shielding the girls from something she obviously thought was incriminating, and it was something that made her afraid.

Thanks, Kat!  So, bottom line is Alice is a big ol' scaredycat!  Afraid of a stick, I think I would be more afraid of Uncle John or Lizzie! 

The implications of keeping a club under the bed is this: the person expects the possibility of an attack!!! Andy DID have enemies outside of the house. Or was this club planted?

Years ago I had a relative who did this. His teenaged son was killed in what was said to be an "accident" - hit and run. But he obviously believed he was in danger. (When the guy was caught, he kept after the police and the DA to prosecute the crime.) And there are many, many men who keep a baseball bat in their bedroom long after their playing days are gone. Just ask the other members of this board.

[An 18" club could have been hidden behind the pillows.]

(Message last edited Sep-26th-02  12:10 PM.)

I bet Uncle John snored like a buzz saw too!  Ha! Yet Kat's thought about the club being a motive is awfully appealing. A note for future reference, the quoted Russell testimony was from her Inquest testimony page 152, not the Preliminary Hearing testimony. Anyway, Alice Russell is to me as peculiar as John Fleet. Both testimonies read very vague, very hesitant, their memories are bad or they give obtuse answers. Fleet in addition seems to be having an ego/authority struggle with Robinson and he kept on saying he just "looked around" everywhere but didn't really search.

Russell can't remember, doesn't recall, didn't pay attention, didn't know, it goes on and on, except for a few points.  It was Fleet on Thursday who said he went into the Borden's bedroom with a couple other officers and when pressed with specific questions said he looked on the top of the bed and looked under the bed and said he didn't see anything that could have been used as a murder weapon. Now does that mean he did see the club but dismissed it as a murder weapon because if so then he can get away with not even mentioning seeing the club even if he did.  He was never asked at that point about a club in particular. 

This kind of testimony is the kind Fleet excelled at, recall his testimony about the handless hatchet, that was as evasive and covering-up a display as I have ever read in the trial. Probably the club was there and Alice didn't see it till Saturday and the police for whatever reason didn't admit to seeing it.

Would still like to know what the room arrangement was after Alice and Uncle John left the house as to where Emma finally decided to have her permanent bedroom.

I went back and read Alice's inquest testimony, too.  And I agree with you, Kat.  I think Alice may have speculated that the club had a sinister connotation.  And it looks like they tried to get her to voice her suspicions at the inquest with this question:

"Q.  Is there any other fact that has to do with this matter [of the big stick under the bed]that you can tell us, that you think of? My inquiry is not directed to, or at, or against anybody, or in favor of anybody.
A.  I dont know of anything."

I think the club is interesting in that it shows that Andrew may have armed himself against some kind of attack. It sounds from Lizzie's testimony that she knew about the club -- and had seen it years ago when she was a child -- but certainly was not aware that he slept with it under the bed.

I'm glad Alice wasn't my friend.  Sometimes it seems to me as though she almost relishes her role of a person compelled to do the 'right thing' -- even if it causes problems for her dear Lizzie. 

I found an interesting piece of trial testimony from City Marshall Hilliard which says that during his search Saturday after the murders of the Borden house he went up to the attic with officers and searched both Bridget's room and the other bedroom next to hers on the northeast side. He says that he was told that Mr. Morse was occupying that room at that time! If true then this means that Morse was not in the guest room as presumed after the murders. This makes sense as perhaps the women wanted the one man in the house as far away as possible from all of them, stick him up in the attic.  Was Emma then in the guest room or in the Borden's bedroom when Alice switched with her?

Yes, why Alice decided to tell on Lizzie is peculiar. What really motivated Alice to squeal to the detective and grand jury about the dress burning.  Lizzie's other friend, the one who got Lizzie's letter about the impending fishing visit in Marion (in which Lizzie said something which the friend thought might be "misconstrued" by police), asked Robinson about it when pressed by the police to give the letter up.  She then destroyed the letter.  So was this friend wrong and Alice right. Each acted in the opposite way, one which protected Lizzie and one which caused Lizzie trouble.

Also interesting is that Mrs. Raymond, the seamstress who made the Bedford cord, did get in a piece of testimony helpful to Lizzie, although Knowlton tried to surpress it as he did with any attempt to bring in evidence that the sister's did ordinarily burn old dresses up in the stove.  Mrs. Raymond said when they were making the Bedford cord that Lizzie took another old dress down to the stove where she said she burned it.  So this leads me to believe it was a normal thing to do in that household and burning the Bedford cord was done because it had paint on it and Emma needed the hook for her own dress.

Thanks for the correction as to souce, Carol...I really appreciate it.

--I remember when first reading that inquest testimony of Alice, when she is asked ..."Any other fact?"  I thought for sure, this is where she brings up the dress-burning incident.  I thought, this is the opening, this is the hint to now tell the tale.

But NO...she tells about the club.  That floored me at the time...and I remember thinking "What ELSE does she know that she's not telling?"  Alice would be privy to actions, reactions and conversations between the remaining family members from Thursday until Monday!  That's o LOT of slip-ups that could happen, that she never spoke of.  It's as if time was suspended between what was depicted in answers to specific questions...everybody play's "statue" until the next question & answer brings them back to life.  Our imaginations have GOT to go there...to fill this in.

Anyway, Alice holds on to the dress info until December!  The weight on her mind must have been very great, throughout those many months...she did tell Hascomb but obviously nothing was done with the info.  Alice was now on her own and she made a hard decision.  Who knows what she still kept back?

-As to burning a dress for want of a nail:  that doesn't make sense to me.  If Abby is dead the girls could then remove her articles of clothing and just set them somewhere and have all the extra nails they needed.  Other than THAT action, Lizzie had given up a dress to the court, so that would free a nail, wouldn't it?  I can't imagine anyone with any sense unknowing of how it would look to authorities burning a dress while under scrutiny of the police and the mayor.

The Bengaline dress was handed over to the police, Lizzie was wearing her pink and white stripe wrapper.  Sounds to me like there would be at least 2 hooks or nails free for Emma to hang up a dress.

Wouldn't you have loved to be a fly on the wall during that period of time?  I'm sure that Alice saw more and heard more than she ever let on.  Maybe nothing as incriminating as the dress burning, but, something I'm sure. 

Good point about the dresses. Am not sure if Emma, disliking Abby as much as she did, would want to use her closet but on the other hand maybe that would be an inspiration to her that she could take over Abby's space. Also perhaps Emma had brought back some new dresses that she either had made for her or bought during her trip, she was gone a long time, and so needed more hooks for those. Also there was Alice staying there who might have needed hooks for her things.

It is peculiar to me that at that important time that Lizzie did burn the dress but then again, rich people live by different rules and do what they want regardless.  I am always reminded of the Ramsey case where the father just removed the girl's body from the crime scene and brought it upstairs on his own initiative.  He certainly knew better than that.

That was a great summary of the atmosphere while questioning of Alice, the suspension of time and tense awkwardness.  I don't think Alice and I would have got on in person on a communication level. I wonder what her general conversations were like... Friend: "Would you like some sugar in your coffee?"  Alice: "I don't know, I really can't say, I could not tell you, I can't recall if I use it, really."

Perhaps the problem with the hooks in the dress closet was just that in Emma's absence, Lizzie became a closet hog and used every hook available.  It was bad enough for me trying to share a closet with my husband, I can imagine how difficult it would be to share one with another woman!  Dresses, hats, shoes, purses, etc., that closet must have been crammed full of stuff.

Alice Russell seems to be suffering the same amnesia disease that Bridget caught; I don't know, I can't say, I don't recall, etc. 

I can totally envision Emma taking over Abby's and Andrew's room, and dressing room, lock, stock,and club!
I can see her triumphant!  A smug smile on her face...Saturday night...folks all decently buried...got the house to themselves, can stay up late, move into dad's room...the hated userper is gone...daddy was the price paid for THat...
Maybe she was an hysteric, and had delusions, and really had tempted and connived at Lizzie to do the deed.
Maybe it was Emma that wanted the house on the Hill...(?)

Or it may be that there was a falling out of feelings, and Alice decided to get back at Lizzie? Meow?

So they were known to dispose of dresses by burning, rather than the sensible way of selling it to the rag man? Does anyone else remember those guys who bought old rags, going house to house? Or is it my failing memory from the 1940s?

Trial, Mrs. Raymond, pg. 1580--[make up your own mind as to whether it was routine to burn clothes in the Borden household.]:
.....
Q.  At that time did she have an old wrapper which this one was being made to take the place of?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Do you remember what she did with the old wrapper?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  What did she do with it?

MR. KNOWLTON. Wait a minute; if she knows of her own knowledge. I object anyhow.

MASON, C. J. The witness is only asked with reference to her own knowledge.

MR. KNOWLTON. My objection, however, is general. I meant to have put it so.

MASON, C. J. She may answer.

Q.  Do you know what she did with the old wrapper that this took the place of?
A.  She cut some pieces out of it and said she would burn the rest.

MR. KNOWLTON. I pray your Honors judgment as to the answer.

MASON, C. J. That is not responsive.

MR. JENNINGS. The two are connected your Honor.

MASON, C. J. Her knowledge is all the question calls for; not what somebody told her.

Q.  After she had cut the pieces out what did she do with them?
A.  She started out of the room to go down stairs with it.

Q.  In her arms?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Did you ever see it after that?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  She came back without it?
A.  She came back without it.

And Mrs. Raymond was talking about the time when she was at the Borden house making the infamous Bedford Cord dress itself, that spring of 1892. In fact the dress Mrs. Raymond heard Lizzie said she would burn described in her testimony, minus the pieces cut out, was the very wrapper which the cheap Bedford cord dress took the place of. 

Which makes me wonder, when the Bedford Cord dress was burned, blood or paint stains aside, would Lizzie have saved portions of the dress for the work bag to be made into something else at a later date?  This seems to be what Mrs. Raymond implies, good, probably sizeable pieces of the garments were saved and the rest burned to dispose of it. 

Yes, Carol & Susan,that's what it sounded like to me.  That some pieces of the original dress that was to be replaced may have gone into a rag bag, and some to be burned.  I would suppose those dresses were of a huge quantity of mayerial that saving only part of one would supply enough rags for a year.
(We were of a Pennsylvania family that always had a rag bag...all the way up until paper towels were invented.  Still keep soft material pieces for polishing...)

(Message last edited Sep-29th-02  9:41 PM.)

So, with that in mind, did that Fall River police ever check the rag or work bag to see if pieces of the Bedford cord dress were in there or not?  Not Alice nor Emma stated on the stand whether Lizzie put pieces of this dress to the side for later use, I am soooooo curious now.  I think if Lizzie wanted to destroy the dress out of guilt, it would have been the whole thing.  If innocently destroyed, I would think she would have saved some scraps from it, probably the unstained portions. 

If Lizzie did cut out some pieces of the Bedford cord to save as a rag and the police had been alert enough to look for them and save them as evidence, and they survived through time we all now could not have an opportunity to actually see what exactly that material print looked like and match it to the descriptions given at the trial, etc.
When I first read Mrs. Raymond's remarks that's what I thought, Lizzie cut out some large sections for rags or whatever (this is supposition but couldn't ladies have used better quality soft cotton cloths as menstruation aids before pads were invented and sold). It would make sense because why would they want to keep the sections of the dress which had buttons, hooks, seams, ruffling, pleating, or otherwise encumbering sections.  If I want to use a rag I want it to be a flat piece of material.  So burning those other pieces would make sense to me.

Of course I meant we all could have an opportunity to see the dress print fabric now, but I added in a "not".  I usually figure people reading the mistakes in my posts just get it and move on knowing it was a mistake.  Sorry, I should take the time to preview posts before so I can be more careful, but am afraid of getting knocked off the interenet before I post.  Ha!

Hi Carol,
If Lizzie and her family were truly miserly they would have cut off the buttons and saved the zipper and hooks for another garment.  My Gram save buttons off of just about anything. Just to be frugal.

Tracie

Hi Tracie: I think that even if the Borden family wasn't miserly she could have saved the button, hooks and other usable portions for another time, another dress. As you say, this can be considered miserly on the one extreme, frugal on the other but also, just a sensible conservative action for most people of her day. Also, button collecting was probably a habit then too. Even though I don't sew anymore I still sometimes cut buttons off my no longer needed clothes not necessarily to use them again but because it is habit and I like to collect buttons. If Knowlton was more interested in the truth than in casting doubt on Lizzie's character, he could have brought up all these things we have talked about on this link to the enlightenment of the case. The bulky unusable portions of an old garment showed the Borden sister's good sense and he wasn't into showing that.

Zippers? Not in use until after WW II, as I remember it.
Do ladies still save buttons?

What about donating clothes to the poor? No income tax write-offs in those days.

(Message last edited Sep-30th-02  4:04 PM.)

And not to mention, poor Bridget, with her 3 or so dresses!  Lizzie probably could have passed her cast-off clothes to Bridget.  Probably because I have no idea what size Bridget was, but, clothes can be let out or taken in, or hemmed, etc.  I'm sure Bridget would have been grateful for the windfall. 

And not to mention, poor Bridget, with her 3 or so dresses!  Lizzie probably could have passed her cast-off clothes to Bridget.  Probably because I have no idea what size Bridget was, but, clothes can be let out or taken in, or hemmed, etc.  I'm sure Bridget would have been grateful for the windfall. 

I save buttons, but I'm not a lady.

Susan, am I seeing things or are you multi-posting?
I saw about five of you in the privy. Is Arborwood
having a problem? Is it just me?

I think it was Arborwood, it was taking forever for my posts to post and now I know why, it was multiposting.  Weird! 

If Bridget was bigger than Lizzie, it was not possible. Did they say she shared w/ Emma?
Also the class differences would not allow this?

I believe that Lizzie was built bigger than Emma, we have just that one newspaper drawing to compare the two with.  But, what would Emma want with Lizzie's ratty old housedresses.  I was thinking with the dirty work that Bridget engaged in she would love to have an outfit she could put on and get as dirty as she pleased since the Bedford cord dress was supposed to be so ruined.

I don't know if class was an issue with cast-off clothing?  I can't see Lizzie giving up one of her finer dresses if it was outdated or ruined, wouldn't want Bridget looking as fine as her mistress, but, a housedress?  I think that would have been fine to pass along. 

I do not know of the practice at that time. Do women today give away old clothes to servants or hired help? Or to a charity (tax write-off)? Would Bridget accept even if they fit her?

Tax write-offs in 1892?  Don't think so.

Lizzie seemed to get on very well with the hired help and the "lower classes".  She wanted to live on the Hill but at the same time she didn't seem to look down on anyone. She is indeed an enigma.

I believe that Lizzie was innocent of the murders, but guilty of the cover-up. Her Dad probably told her "NEVER tell about cousin Willy".
If you accept this, then AR Brown's book makes the puzzle fall into place. She wouldn't keep silent for a stranger ("it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father").

Also, she wasn't part of a murder scheme, else she would've gone away for an alibi like Emma or Uncle John. It was an unexpected accident by an enraged madman. That's my logical conclusion.

I have a memory that Bridget was 5'6"
and Lizzie along the lines of 5'4".

I would think they had similar proportions just at different heights.

I can give a long dress of mine to my girlfriend and we are of a same disparity.

I would wear taller shoes and she would wear flat, and the dress length could pretty much hit about the same.

A flounce added to the bottom (or do I mean a ruffle?) would easily make up the height difference.  Seams were made larger, then, I believe, just so garmets could be more easily altered.
However, we do have Emma's account that Lizzie liked her clothes *snug*...so maybe that, and Bridget's pride(?) might preclude the transfer of apparel?

Well, I was thinking along the lines of Lizzie being a charitable person, so, in some ways it is odd that she wouldn't pass along dresses that were usable to someone.  I was thinking that Bridget could have at least used the skirt, the waist could be let out to accomodate Bridget without being too snug, am not so sure that can be done with the blouse?  Do you think that Bridget would be too proud to except a freebie? 

I think it seems like she might have been too proud to accept
hand-me-downs. She was a working woman, she wasn't a slave, she wasn't their property, she was just an employee. And also by the
time dresses wore out wouldn't they be tacky & out of style?
Wouldn't most people feel silly going around in last years dress
even if it was expensive & a freebie from your rich employer & you only had three dresses besides it?

Well, the Bedford cord was only how many months old?  It was made in the spring of that year and was supposed to be badly faded.  So, I don't think it would have been too out of style?

I'm just going on how I would handle it if my employer gave me some freebie clothes, which my last employer did, 2 beautiful blouses she had had only a year and one dress which I love so much!  The dress is that really cool 2 tone material, it looks black one way and red the other! 

I never get anything! But if you were an 'inferior'
would you have appreciated the gesture? She didn't give them to
you because they were stained up, but what if someone did? What
if they said this dress is covered in paint you don't have
very many others, it is new to you.

Well, if it was something I was going to be using for work clothes, something that would get messy anyway, I would accept and use it.

And, I was thinking, since Bedford cord material is supposed to be virtually indestructive, it would have made great cleaning rags, at the very least, for Bridget. 

(Message last edited Oct-3rd-02  8:06 PM.)

I'm not sure, but I question if they would have rewarded Bridget (in this case) by giving her something. Wouldn't that be against the habits of the day? Just asking.

Perhaps the culture had some influence on the practice of giving clothes away.  I'm not sure how the class system worked in 1892 where women's hand-me-downs are concerned. Would a woman in society, Lizzie or Emma, have really given one of their old dresses to a domestic, Bridget, with the intention that she wear it?  Would Bridget have accepted the offer of one of their old dresses?...she seems to have been taller and of different proportion than the sisters and if they gave it to her to cut up, that doesn't make sense to me, she could have as well have taken the trouble to make her own new dress from cheap calico than restyle. Perhaps the sister's dress styles were not Bridget's kind of styles. Perhaps she would have considered it a slight to be given an old dress and would have rather gotten a raise in pay so she could buy her own new dress. Maybe society women would give their old dresses away, but to members of their own class who had relatives in need or to someone outside of their own family sphere?  A domestic wearing a dress not of her class would seem out of place in those times.

A little light can be thrown on this by looking at Bridget's testimony at the Preliminary (pgs 81-82)

Q.  Did she say anythingelse to you then?
A.  Not then.
Q.  Directly afterwards?
A.  I got through with my work, and was in the kitchen. Then she told me there was a sale of dress goods in Sargent's, eight cents a yard. I said I would have one. That is all.
Q.  Did not she make the statement about the sale of dress goods at Frank Sargeants, if that is the name, two or three days before that?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Did she ever tell you about any sale at Sargeants before this particular day?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  It is the first time she ever mentioned it?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  About any chance of buying any?
A.  Yes sir. Emma had a good many times told me about bargains.
Q.  Miss Lizzie had not before, so far as you recollect?
A.  No Sir.

From this we assume that at least Emma showed some concern for Bridget in the area of dresses.  Also it would appear Bridget also had her dresses made.  I'm out of my area of expertise (if I have any) here.  I assume dresses could "store bought" complete like today.  Would it be unusual for a maid to have her dresses made?  Was it cheaper that way? Or would she have done it herself? 

Thanks Harry,
That does make things clearer.
Carol, I agree with you.
It seems as if had the girls been on decent terms with Abby's younger family then THEY would be the ones to benefit from hand-me-downs.
Yes, the same class, but in straightened conditions.
That would be acceptable.

In Emma's case, I've always wondered why Mrs. Raymond didn't make Her clothes.  Emma says Abby and Lizzie used her services and that they ALL helped to make the dresses but she doesn't say by whom or where HER dresses are made.  I had thought maybe that meant she wasn't in need as often...or she did not admire the work of Mrs. Raymond, or that she prefered to sew herself or she preferred a different style, altogether.  Any one thought about this?

(Message last edited Oct-4th-02  10:11 PM.)

Well, I guess if anyone was going to be giving away dresses, it would have been Emma and not Lizzie.  Just checked Lizzie's last will, no mention of clothing that I saw.  Checked Emma's last will and lo and behold, she was giving clothes to a friend!

FOURTH: I give and bequeath to my friend, Josephine Ridlon, of Somerset, Massachusetts, the sum of Two Thousand Dollars ($2,000) and all of my wearing apparel.

So, Emma being the one that told Bridget about dress material sales and such totally makes sense.  She seems to be the one to know the value of good clothing. 

Do you think Mrs. Raymond's wares were too cheap for Emmer?
Possibly she had better quality, longer lasting clothes made elsewhere?  (While at Second Street)

Susan, a really interesting post and one that gives us some insight into Emma's personality.  We don't have too many clues about her.  Possibly she was a more meticulous person than Lizzie.  I recall reading a letter that she sent to a dressmaker, mentioning that she needed very little in the way of clothing.  Perhaps she preferred quality over quantity (as you surmise).  There was definitely lots of ready-made clothing on the market (if you read the adverts in the various newspapers of the day), but perhaps people of means still preferred to have theirs tailor-made.

Were there "off the rack" stores around in those times? In Fall River? Would it be beneath them for the Borden girls to shop in such a place? Didn't their class shop in Providence (as per V Lincoln)?

[Back in the 1960s a local haberdashery would modify off-the-rack clothes for its customers at a modest charge.]

(Message last edited Oct-5th-02  1:28 PM.)

Kat, I wish I could find where I had read this, but, there is allegedly a connection between Emma's dressmaker and the Mrs. Brownell in Fairhaven that Emmer was visiting.  If I recall correctly, Mrs. Brownell is the daughter of Emma's dressmaker.  Which makes me think that there was a friendship as well as a business association between the two. 

Edisto, with Lizzie I get the impression that she liked loud prints and up-to-the-minute fashions.  Emma seems more like the type to dress more sedately and have clothing made that would serve her over many years.  I wonder if they had mix and match clothing made?  Like women's suits today, with a jacket and skirt, change the blouse and you have a new look, change the jacket and its a new outfit altogether.  Thats the impression I get with Emma, simple, elegantly tailored dresses that possibly could be interchanged with one another to extend her wardrobe.  I don't know why, but, the thought just occured to me, if the Borden "girls" could have voted during their day, I think Lizzie would have been a democrat or third party, Emma was definetly a republican. 

Rays, there were ready made, off-the-rack dresses available at the time, but, I think that they were something that the Borden "girls" wouldn't have purchased.  I get the impression, I could be wrong, that ready made clothing was for lower to middle income families.  Have you ever seen the televised series of Anne of Green Gables?  In it the character, Matthew, buys a ready made dress for Anne to wear.  I don't think that the fit would be good, you probably would have to take it in here and let it out a little there. 

There was quite a lot of ready-made clothing for men, women and children advertised in the newspapers in the 1890s, I believe even those in Fall River.  It seemed to be in different price ranges, so I assume there was a difference in quality.  I think the gambit then was to have a dress, a skirt or jacket, or a matching suit, of fine fabric that couldn't be washed.  Then washable shirtwaists or collars were used with it, so that it could go a long time between cleanings.  To some extent, we still do that.  Men's shirts had removable collars, some of which were made of celluloid.  You didn't launder the entire shirt very often, but you could switch the collar at least daily.  When I was younger, every department store had a large alterations department.  You picked out a dress or skirt, tried it on, and then had one of the alternations ladies look at it and help you decide what alterations it needed.  Mine always needed to be hemmed, since I'm not very tall, so I had to stand straight and still while somebody with a mouthful of pins pinned the hem up to a flattering length.  I then left the garment at the store to be hemmed.  The better stores did this free of extra charge. (Did y'all realize these posts aren't supposed to be more than 70 characters long?  Yikes!)
Well, since I've already sinned with this long post, I'll add: Emma and Lizzie could have voted in two presidential elections -- those of 1920 and 1924.  If Emma was a Republican, she probably voted for Warren G. Harding, arguably the worst president we ever had! (I hope this isn't considered political content; I don't mean it that way.)

(Message last edited Oct-5th-02  9:07 PM.)

No, not the posts 70 characters long, just the lines in the posts. Never mind. that idea applies mainly to netiquette on newsgroups. I will delete the confusing idea from the admin area. Thanks for pointing out the absurdity of that part of it.

Actually, I PREFER people to post long messages. It is the short replies that take up space. That is why I asked everyone to edit their posts when adding info or comments instead of posting in a separate message. So as not to confuse anyone, what I mean is that if you are replying to someone and you say something and hit post, then later decide to add something to that same thoughtful message----that is when it is better to edit the original post instead of putting your addendum in a whole new post. Apparently, space is measured on Arborwood by the number of messages, not the size of each post. Strange but true!

That is also why I asked members to take private conversations off board and email each other on the side instead of using this forum as a personal bulletin board. Saving space merely. For instance, "me too"s. They are unnecessary. So are "here here"s and "I agree"s unless you add something to the discussion when you post your support.

If anyone thinks any of these rules don't make sense, feel free to ask me in a letterbox email and I will be happy to talk it over with you. Maybe you have a better idea you would like to share as well. I love those!

(Message last edited Oct-5th-02  11:07 PM.)

I agree, I hated to say it though! I mean, I am not
a society lady & I have no idea how they think, but it
seems like 'they' wouldn't want a servant running around
in their old clothes. It just wouldn't be fittin'.


My edit: Is this post long enough? Am I doing ok? I'll
be the first one to get kicked out.

(Message last edited Oct-5th-02  11:10 PM.)

Oh boy, have I started something or what? Please don't get all self-conscious on me now. I know you know what I mean.

UPDATE:  I haven't started the archiving yet and won't until next week sometime. I am still trying to figure out the best way to do it, both for ease of reading, access, and organization.

I get the impression though that the Borden "girls" were trying to be society ladies and I'm sure a society lady never bought anything off the rack that anyone else could have.  Imagine showing up at some party and someone has on the exact same dress as you do!  So, I'm thinking that one of a kind, personalized dresses were in order for Lizzie and Emma.

Oh, I can still remember as a little girl when the bigger department stores offered tailoring when you bought a suit, I don't recall if they did that for dresses though? 

Has Arborwood expressed any feeling about this board?
Is it getting as many hits as your site is? If millions
and millions have found it, are they glad to be hosting the
forum? I wonder if they could or would give you extra space?
Do they enjoy the traffic, a little?

(Message last edited Oct-6th-02  12:34 AM.)

I once read that men's shirts came in only one sleeve length (long or 36"?) and that's why men used garters (?) on their arms. I am old enought to remember when jeans came in one pants length, you just rolled up the excess as cuffs. Boy, did they accumulate dirt!!!

Has anyone noticed that pants come in even waist sizes today 32-46, but its hard to find a 35" waist?

I can't comment on girls or woman's sizes. I'm sure we have more choices and varieties today.

It seems Emmer has other ideas as to a Borden family rag-bag.
Trial
Emma
Pg. 1544:
Q.  What do you do with your rags and pieces of cloth that you had this morning, or what did your sister do with those that she had?   What was the custom?

MR. KNOWLTON. Wait a minute. I pray your Honors' judgment.

MR. JENNINGS. I will withdraw that question for a moment, with your Honors' permission.

Page 1544 / i566

Q.  Did you or your sister keep a rag bag?

MR. KNOWLTON. Wait a minute---

A.  We did not.

MR. KNOWLTON. I pray your Honors' judgment.

MASON, C. J. Excluded.

Q.  What was done with the pieces of cloth, or pieces of old dresses, or old dresses that you had to dispose of?

MR. KNOWLTON. Wait a minute. I pray your Honors' judgment.

Q.  Or that your sister had to dispose of?

MASON, C. J. Excluded.

Q.  What was the custom and habit of your sister in disposing of pieces of clothing or old dresses?

MR. KNOWLTON. I pray your Honors' judgment.

MASON, C. J. Excluded.

MR. JENNINGS. We take an exception to that, your Honors.

Q.  Do you know of your sister's habit of burning old dresses, or portions of old dresses previous to this time?

MR. KNOWLTON. I object.

MASON, C. J. Excluded.

MR. JENNINGS. We desire to save an exception to that, your Honor.

I have to wonder though if Emmer's answer was part of her coaching by Mr. Jennings?  No rag or work bag = no saved dress parts or old dresses.  Would you perjure yourself on the stand for Stefani if you were in Emmer's shoes? 

I don't think I would be ABLE to lie, if I wanted to.
Not being any good at it because I don't have the experience, I would blow it, stumbling all over myself...not being able to keep my story straight...
Simple things that they could check, like the physical existence of a rag bag, Or even Asking Bridget if they had a rag bag, one should never lie about.
Maybe Emmer was being literal--that they--the GIRLS--used no rag bag--but maybe Bridget & Abby did.  (Bridget does say she used rags to wash the interior windows and hung them behind the stove before she went upstairs.)
So I would tend to believe that the girls did not use or have a rag-bag.

I know for a fact if my little sister (there is an 8 year age difference) was on trial, I couldn't lie!  But, I could probably play a good game of cat and mouse, ala Bill Clinton-I didn't have sexual relations with that woman, define sexual relations?  With coaching from the lawyer I'm sure I could do that.

I was just thinking that in the trial it was brought up that when Lizzie was asked what had happened to Abby's note, was Abby's workbag checked?  Which sounds like it may have been a bag filled with scraps of material from things that would be made into quilts and such, my supposition.  And knowing Andrew's thrift, wouldn't Abby prescribe to it?  She got the same allowance as "the girls" and she had to use it to buy household things with, I think she would be frugal when possible, like saving parts of old dresses.

And from what you say, why wasn't Bridget asked about rag-bags and such?  Maybe Emma and Lizzie didn't have a rag-bag, but, were told when getting rid of a dress or something, tear up some good size pieces and put them in Abby's rag-bag?! 

Trial
Emma
1566

Q.  Have you ever caused any search to be made for the note that your stepmother was said to have received that day?
A.  I think I only looked in a little bag that she carried downstreet with her sometimes, and in her workbasket.

Ah, thank you, Kat!  Work basket....now I have to ask myself, is that like a sewing kit, or like a craft container, knitting, crocheting, darning, etc. ??? 

So WHY did the prosecutor object to questions about the family practice of disposing of old dresses?
I think it was because he KNEW they would say they burned them, You can opine whether this was true or not. We will NEVER know the whole true story.

My colonial reproductions catalog from Jas. Townsend
& Son Ltd arrived this morning & it has a sewing basket & it
is one of those 'buttocks baskets', it does not have a lid.
The catalog has some nice & fairly inexpensive clothing & patterns & books. The website is: www.jastown.com.

I always thought those baskets with the lids were the sewing
baskets, they are usually lined in fabric, I think. I guess
a sewing basket can be of any kind you want.

(Message last edited Oct-10th-02  8:07 PM.)

Well, my thinking is that a work basket is just that, filled with work, women's work to be specific.  Socks and stockings that need to be darned, possibly things that needed to be mended, maybe material to be made into an apron or something? 

I'm having a Little House moment.....they had rag bags &
work or sewing baskets & they made curtains & trimmed them
in fabric from old dresses. But they were not exactly
A.J. Borden & family type folks. Would the quite rich
Borden's have scrimped & saved junk clothes to re-use?
Keeping the lamps un-lit to save on kerosene is not as
thrifty as hoarding fabric, it was only eight cents a yard.

But, a penny saved is a penny earned, waste not, want not.  I think Andrew was of that school of thought, 8 cents was 8 cents and better saved than spent. 

Yeah, but even Bridget thought that was a deal!

If they were burning dresses rather than saving them,
why did Andrew come trucking home with a broken lock?

Well, as I said before, maybe "the girls" were supposed to tear off nice sized scraps and save them for Abby.  Lizzie tore up the Bedford cord before burning it, but, we don't know if any of the pieces were saved or all was burned.  It would be cool if a scrap of that fabric remained for us to see. 

What did he need that lock for? My grandmother was like
that, she would keep anything. That was from growing up
during the depression. Is there any mention of Abby ever
making a quilt? That would use up any small pieces of fabric.

I remember someone had put across the idea that since it was Andrew's shop he had keys or a key to the place, if the old lock was taken out, he needed to get rid of the key that went to it off his keyring. So, he brought the lock home with him to match up the old key off his key ring, something like that, it kinda makes sense.

And, no, I've never heard of Abby making anything other than dresses with the dressmaker. 

I'm not a quilter, but I think quilts were/are made from scraps of new fabric.  It wouldn't make sense to put all that work into something that was already half worn out.  When a garment is cut out, there's always a lot of waste fabric in small pieces, and that's where quilt scraps used to come from.  I have wondered if Bedford cord (which I think was something like pique) was too hard-finished to make good rags.  In other words, it might not have been absorbent enough to use as cleaning rags, etc.  The Bordens may have kept a rag bag containing scraps of old sheets, towels and other soft fabric.  I don't think their economic status would have had much to do with it.  There were no paper towels in those days.

My grandmother made quilts & she made them out of
old clothes. That is what 'crazy quilts' were usually,
just a bit of this & a little of that. Clothing wasn't
treated with as many harsh soaps then & the fabric
probably didn't fall apart as fast as things do now. I'm
guessing washing something in lye soap a few times a month
or a year wouldn't have done as much damage as the perfumed
un-natural soaps we have now. Everybody couldnt afford
to buy new fabric & I think the first patchwork quilts were
not done to show off a design, the design probably came later.

.....I have wondered about the conspiracy theory which has Emma and Uncle John involved in a plot for either Billy Borden or some other nut case to kill the Bordens.  Assuming that they both set this up, without Lizzie's knowledge knowing they will both be out of the house with alibis and free from suspicion, could they have really had enough faith in a nut case that he wouldn't just whack Lizzie as well? Were they willing to take that chance. And what would this say about their devotion to Lizzie. Both of them eventually deserted her, Uncle John went back out west and they didn't correspond from what we know, and Emma finally left Maplecroft and never talked with her again.

I have seen some quilter shows on KPBS that had some really old quilts on it.  Some of the quilts were made with people's old clothing and had notation sewn into it like so-and-so's favorite dress, Uncle whoever's shirt, etc. 

Wasn't there some sort of chenille bedspread on the bed in the guest room?  I wonder what was on the rest of the beds in the house at the time of the murders?  Not important as a clue, but, just curious.  Abby had to spend her own money on sheets and such for the house, I wonder if that included Lizzie's and Emma's beds? 

The guest bedroom had a matelasse bedspread, I think.
Which is kind of quilted, not like a pieced quilt but
more like quilted toilet paper.

I also wonder what the bedrooms looked like then, maybe
that was where they kept all the nice stuff.

When I was a child (admittedly much later than the 1890s), my maternal grandmother made a quilt for me and one each for my siblings.  She used our initials as a motif.  They did include fabrics from clothing that belonged to us, but they were new scraps of the fabric used to make the garments.  She was a wonderful seamstress and made a good deal of our clothing, so she simply used the leftover scraps in the quilts.  Possibly both new and old fabrics were used by some quilters.  As far as I can remember, both of my grandmothers used new scraps exclusively.

I don't think most women were lucky enough to be
that selective in their choice of materials. I think that
was the main reason patchwork quilts existed, they could
put to use all the leftover material they had. They didn't
need to have all of it at once, they saved it over the
months or years in their rag bag. If you could afford to
buy all new fabric, you could afford heat.

Thanks, Kimberly.  Matelasse?  I am so not familiar with that word, was just wondering what the Borden's beds were covered with, I know they have the guest room spread at the FRHS.

Edisto, the quilts I saw on the shows from from settler women.  After seeing that series where they took modern families and put them in that time frame for real, I would think that the women used any scrap of material they could lay their hands on.  Do you still have the quilts that your grandmother made you?  How lovely to have something like that for a keepsake! 

Carol, can you tell which conspiracy theory has Emma & Morse involved but not Lizzie?
If there was a conspiracy like that, I would like to know more about it?  Leaving Lizzie as a fall guy sounds despicable...but then so does murder...

Susan, that is where I got the info on the quilt in
the guest room, on that site, or one of them. You can
buy almost the exact same bedspread today, they never
went out of style. They are rather pricey & probably
always were, so at least the guest bedroom was outfitted 
somewhat expensively.

I'm still thinking about the Borden's (Andrew at least)
being so thrifty but still burning up old clothes, wouldn't
rags be preferable to newspaper in the privy?

And I found some history on quilts, they have thousands of
them, these were my favorites. 
http://www.hannahats.com/products/quilt.html

The patchwork quilt holds a prominent and endearing place in
Ireland's impoverished and romantic history.

Patches, irrespective of colour, appeared on the trousers of male
peasants until very little of the original material could be seen. When the owner died, if they were not claimed by a younger member
of the family circle, they were cut and shaped to centralise a patchwork quilt. This extra-large crudely made quilt was then used
to keep the children warm under the thatch roof.


http://www.llph.co.uk/Patchwork-History.htm
They survived - just -and the land was eventually conquered.
The early settlers were poor and could not replace essential possessions. Everything was repaired again and again and this
was certainly true of the family quilts, which were patched up
with scraps of fabric from old clothing. After many repairs, the
quilt top began to resemble a patchwork design more than solid
fabric and these were the precursors of the beautiful and inventive patterns of the 18th and 19th centuries, now elevated to an art form and highly prized.

"In town to see the hatchet? Get in line.

The Fall River Historical Society has cleverly loaded most of the Lizzie Borden murderabilia at the end of a two hour tour of local history and period furniture. Of course, it may help you understand how people can be driven to kill...

The kitchen houses the hip bath, which originally contained all the good Lizzie artifacts donated to the Society: the Marseilles spread and pillow shams spotted with drops of blood, locks of the victims' hair, two paper tags neatly labeled 'Mr. Borden's stomach' and 'Mrs. Borden's stomach,' and other stuff you'll get to see 'later.' "
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/MAFALliz.html

-I never really knew what this folded white fabric was.  Is it pillow shams?  I tried to put it into proportion to the hatchet head...
-Was the guest room bedcover not "Marseilles", whatever that IS?

(Message last edited Oct-13th-02  2:58 AM.)

I don't know that there is a "formal" theory by anyone that Lizzie might not be involved, Kat.  But I have pondered that possibility, undoubtedly raised by something I read in a book, which book, I have no idea. Most conspiracy adicts believe that Lizzie was involved, she either plotted with others or knew what was going on and just didn't talk. But it is possible that Lizzie knew nothing of what was going on. She was the youngest of all the participants in this event and the one left in the most precarious position at the time of the murders. A perfect set up. This theory has been overlooked. Some day I will have time to line up all that went on with this theory in mind and see how all Lizzies actions and statements fit with it. I know there are some people in life who are of a nature easy for others to victimize but there are more people in life who victimize and enjoy power to dominate and control others. 

Of course we don't know exactly how old Bridget was, but isn't it likely that she was younger than Lizzie and in an even more precarious position, since she was a servant?  I would certainly include her as a "participant" in the events of August 4, 1892, but perhaps others wouldn't???

I have no expertise when it comes to fabrics, but I'll take a shot at this:

"Marseille": Aside from being a French seaport with the worst roads in France, the American Heritage Dictionary offers this definition:  "A heavy cotton fabric with a raised pattern of stripes or figures."

More can be found re. "Marseille" and "Matelasse" on Google.

I was speaking about a family conspiracy...Emma and Uncle John and any others. I don't consider Bridget part of the Borden family. If I should have said "youngest immediate family member participant" for it to be more clear to you what I meant.  Emma and Uncle John were older.

Well, I knew it started with an M.

I was just looking at the crime scene pictures to see what
the bedspread looked like on (they have the ruffles tucked in)
and I was looking at the ones of Andrew & a thought came to
mind that by the time the pictures were taken they might have
placed his hands in that position before rigor mortis set in &
he would be easier for the undertaker & the doctors to deal
with if his arms were straightened out some & closer to the body.
When someone dies in the hospital they seem like they put them in
their funeral pose right away. I wonder if it took them awhile to
get Abby's arms down? His seems somewhat like the oddly
un-natural natural poses you see at a funeral. Shouldn't
his right arm have been hanging off the couch?

In this picture:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/crimesceneassets/andrwzoom.jpg
it seems like you can almost see that he was knocked down, or
sideways, just something about the torso, the way he is twisted.

(Message last edited Oct-13th-02  7:16 PM.)

Carol, I'm not quite as dense as you imply.  I went back and read your post again, and there's absolutely no mention of a conspiracy involving only members of the Borden family.  In point of fact, John V. Morse wasn't a member of the Borden family either, so maybe he should be eliminated from this narrowing circle too.  I've read most of the books on the Borden case, and I do know the ages of most of the participants, other than Bridget, who apparently didn't know her own age. ("Me and Brownie" were around 16, although I'm not sure we have truly accurate info on that.  And no, they weren't members of the Borden family, but some of us consider them participants in this little drama even so.)

I had thought of Rigor when it came to the bodies, but long ago.
I remember speculating that Abby's arms were moved for that purpose, knowing there would be an autopsy on site in a few more hours.  If her hands had been near waist level when she fell, and if she had originally been in a kneeling position, it would have been awfully hard to cut her open.
I think the point is interesting, Kim, that rigor might have figured into at least the earlier victim's pose.
Maybe that's why the undertaker didn't fix them up until Friday night...waiting for the stiffness to dissipate.

Carol,
I did get the impression later as I thought more about it, that you were promulgating your own theory as to a conspircy within the family (Morse & Emma, only?  Or was a Davis hired out by Morse?).  My problem with any conspiracy at all as always been the Secretiveness necessary...the more people, the more chance of talk.
I did, for one week, on this Forum...(Did you see?) decide to imagine Lizzie was innocent (and I don't mean just Not Guilty) and then re-read all her testimony and the whole Inquest again in the light of that. No matter that no one here would *play*...it was too Hard!  I did try.
The main discrepancies were between Lizzie's statement and Bridget's.
They exclude each other in odd ways...almost as if they were referring to different days.
I think it is educational and illuminating to read "Bridget vs. Lizzie"--everyone should do it.  If one is truthful the other is lying.  Which is it, I wonder?  I change my mind all the time...

I forgot to mention, Kim:

Well, YOU could be right and that site may be wrong, that's been proven before.
What I wondered was where did you get the original term?

Also, in the Shots In The Dark picture book, there is a high resolution photo of the bedspread on the guest room bed and it almost looks "chenile"...but anyway, it looks more like *tassels* than ruffles at the bottom.

That was the site I was thinking about, I remembered
it was French & when Susan mentioned chenille I tried
to remember without having to find the site & Marseille
became Matelasse because that is what I like.

Thanks, Kimberly!  Great sites!  Never having been to the FRHS I wonder what the spread looks like?  That thing they show in the pictures under the hatchet head looks like it might be a pillow sham or even possibly, Lizzie's petticoat!

Kat, I think I have looked in that book before and that is how I got the idea that the spread was chenille, but, this matelasse or Marseilles has a raised pattern to it almost like a chenille.  Confusing! 

The site I was thinking of was the one Kat posted:
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/MAFALliz.html.
I don't think that picture is on the FRHS site, I haven't
checked it out in awhile, but it seems like they didn't
have a whole lot of Lizzie going on. I think they think
there is more to Fall River than the legend of Lizzie
Borden. Odd, isn't it?

From the Lizzie Borden Quarterly
April 1996
"Bridget Sullivan, Before and After" by
Riobard O'Dwyer

"... Bridget Sullivan was born in March, 1864, in the townland of Billerough, Parish of Allihies, Beara Peninsula, County Cork, Ireland,
...Bridget was baptised on St. Patrick's day, March 17,1864, by Father James Irwin."
It was customary in the Catholic faith during this period, to have a child baptized within a few weeks after it's birth.

(Message last edited Oct-14th-02  9:41 AM.)

Thanks, William.  I remember reading that article when it came out.  Of course, we can contrast that information with the date of 1869 that appears on the tombstone of the Bridget Sullivan who's buried in Mt. Olivet Cemetery in Anaconda, MT.  Sometimes I do wonder if all these Bridgets are one and the same person!  At any rate, I think we can probably assume that Bridget wasn't christened before she was born...

(Message last edited Oct-14th-02  1:33 PM.)

Kat: Sorry, I missed your link about the Lizzie was innocent theme. It is a hard proposition to consider Lizzie knew absolutely nothing about the murders going to happen. Thanks for the tip about comparing Lizzie to Bridget in testimony, that alone would be revealing.  I agree about  secretiveness as being a big problem in conspiracies. Easier to sustain a conspiracy in the days before e-mail, airplanes, etc.

From my perspective I would think that those within the conspiracy would start fighting and turn on each other, but that might occur more in ordinary criminal types moreso than in a Borden family plot, I think. But if a member of the family did hire someone outside the family to do the murders, the confidentiality issue becomes even more of a problem.

I haven't gotten far enough in my surmising that I have even considered more people than Emma and Uncle John specifically. I was focusing on the possibility that Lizzie was innocent and what if if if if. But it still intriques me that it is possible Lizzie was in the dark about it all.

Edisto:  Chill out.

Carol:
Oh, I'll do even "moreso."

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=1&fid=27&taid=1&topid=612
July, "Lizzie Where Is Bridget".
You may have read it and been underwhelmed.

The differences in testimony is extraordinary...just for an example...Bridget says Andrew went upstairs after he arrived home, and Lizzie swears he didn't...

I agree that within the family there could have been a silence as to what really happened...but bring in Anyone else, and there is no guarantee...with all the news coverage going on at the time, a hint of the true form the murders took would have leaked out by now (not including Brown's solution).

If Lizzie knew "nothing" then Bridget knew all...

I don't know what your own experience is. But the difference in testimony speaks of truth! Wouldn't a conspiracy get all their stories straight in agreement?
Simple solution: each one remembers the facts slightly differently!!!

A "family conspiracy" would NOT leak out the facts since it is in their own best interest to keep silent. Then or now.
Ever read Dashiell Hammett's "The Big Knockover" or see the movie "Goodfellas"? Things get ugly when they have to split the loot; fewer survivors = more loot. As per AR Brown's book, the one that might have squealed (?) ended up at the end of a rope. Rough justice?

(Message last edited Oct-16th-02  2:31 PM.)

Of course Lizzie knew nothing about any "murders going to happen"!!! Else she would have gotten a good alibi like Emma or Uncle John. She did expect that "someone" might do something (confided to Miss Russell) but I think it was just the possibility of another scandal.

Alice Russell was quick to tell Lizzie to tell the police on Thursday what Lizzie said Wed. night to her about the fact Lizzie was afraid of something going to happen, etc., etc.  But we do not know if this was a usual or abnormal thing for Lizzie to confide in Alice about her "concerns."

If Lizzie was frequently upset about matters and goings on and told Alice about them then this was just one more instance of her personality needing to let off steam.  If not, and it was an isolated episode, then it would take on more relevance. It takes on more relevance just for the fact that there was subsequently a double murder, but to know the above would tell us more about Lizzie personally. Does anyone have more on this?

There was some testimony I think by Anna Borden about what Lizzie said about her home life when they were together on the voyage to Europe, but that was excluded. The prosecution really could get not get together very much evidence to point to Lizzie's disenchantment with Abby put into verbal form.  Lizzie was never quoted as saying something like "That Abby, one day I'm going to kill her."   

That conversation w/ Anna Borden on the Grand Tour was too far in the past to be releavant.
BTW is there ANY teen-ager, then or now, who is perfectly happy at home??? I wonder?

[Isn't any talk about this happening previously just idle speculation? Do you have "documentary proof" that this happened?]

Wasn't it William Brayton who had gone around saying he would get even with Andy some day? And wasn't he the #1 suspect afterwards?

(Message last edited Oct-16th-02  4:56 PM.)

Ray, wasn't Lizzie's trip to Europe in June of 1890 (Rebello, page 17)?  If so, that would have made her nearly 30 years old when she left.  She would have spent her 30th birthday in Europe.  I'd hardly refer to a 30-year-old as a teenger!  In case you were thinking of Anna Borden as the sulky teenager, she was two years older than Lizzie (Hoffman, p. 32).  Because life expectancy in those days wasn't what it is today, these women were well into middle age.

I do not find it all suspicious that Lizzie was not happy about returning home.  How often do you get a chance to visit Europe (THE thing to do in that age) and in some sense to be on her own.

Ask it the other way around -  What was she coming back to? You may not have been in a rush either.

I'm replying to everybody but I clicked on Harry just for fun.

Ray:
If Bridget's statement was at odds in extreme particulars to Lizzie's this says to me someone is lying.  They cannot both be right.  That fact cannot be neglected.
Please show where Mr. Brayton was the first suspect in Andrew's and Abby's killings.  It is nowhere that I have  searched for suspects.
- - - - -

As for Alice telling Lizzie on Thursday to tell police what Lizzie told Her on Wednesday night...I have looked for that, and I do not find it.  I think it is an "author" invention.  Please see the Witness Statements.
- - - -
Almost all the ladies going on that trip to Europe were to have birthdays while abroad.  I always had the feeling it was a planned event to happen during Lizzie's and her friend's birthdays...some added significance.
- - - - -
Carol, you ask if there are other instances of Lizzie blowing off steam by mentioning her problematic stepmother.  i think the statement of the cloakmaker and things revealed during the "sanity survey" may be what you're interested in?

Diana may be able to help with that.

Re " As for Alice telling Lizzie on Thursday to tell police what Lizzie told Her on Wednesday night...I have looked for that, and I do not find it.  I think it is an "author" invention.  Please see the Witness Statements."

Alice urged Lizzie to tell the police about the alleged argument her father had had with a man who wanted to rent a store.

I also think we should discontinue this thread. It is up to 242 messages. Going to be hell to archive.  It would be interesting to see how many different topics this thread has covered. 

(Message last edited Oct-16th-02  11:48 PM.)

"Alice urged Lizzie to tell the police about the alleged argument her father had had with a man who wanted to rent a store."

Where is that? I would really like to know.  Is it a source document?

Actually Kat, I just finished reading it.  It was in this months LBQ in an article by Hoffman.  He says it occurred when Fleet was questioning Lizzie.  I remember reading it myself somewhere, but I don't know whether it was in a primary document. I'll check tomorrow.

Finally!
Thanks!
Sorry Carol!
& everyone
...
Fleet makes no mention in the Witness Statements of any of this and when he is first asked at the Prelim. who was in the room with Lizzie he only mentions Rev. Buck.  Alice pops up out of the blue:

Prelim.
Fleet
Pg. 355
"I asked her if she knew anyone that had ever threatened her father, or suspected anyone that would do such a thing as kill him, and she said "no, I did not know that he had an enemy in the world." Then Miss Russell said "tell him all Lizzie, tell him about the man that you was telling me about." So then she said that about two weeks ago a man came to the door, and they had some loud talk, and the man seemed to be mad or angry. I asked her what he was talking about. She said he was talking about a store, and wanted Mr. Borden, she should judge, to let him the store; and he would not, saying that he would not let it for that purpose. I asked her if she knew who he was. She said she did not, but ??? he was a stranger, somebody out of Fall River."

--I wonder why Lizzie didn't "tell him all", tho.?

Trial
Fleet
Pg. 464
I think about all the conversation I had with her at that time--- Oh, no. Miss Russell was in the room, and she says to Lizzie, "Tell him all; tell him what you was telling me." And she looked at Miss Russell, and then she says, "About two weeks ago a man came to the house, to the front door, and had some talk with father, and talked as though he was angry." And I asked her what he was talking about. She said, "He was talking about a store, and father said to him, 'I cannot let you have the store for that purpose;' "---The man seemed to be angry. I then came down stairs.

Q.  Is that all you recall at that first interview with her?
A.  I think it is.

From Ter's notes, the list of "girls" gone on the European trip.
Note how many had their birthdays abroad...

"The trip lasted from June 21 to November 1, 1890.  In order of age, from oldest to youngest, of those known to have gone in Lizzie's party, they were:
-Ellen 'Nellie' M. Shove  (b. 1851) - 38, turned 39 in August
-Anna Howland Borden  (b. 1858) - 32
-Lizzie Andrew Borden   (b. 1860) - 29, turned 30 in July
-Carrie Lindley Borden  (b. 1864) - 25, turned 26 in September
-Elizabeth Hitchcock Brayton  (b. 1865) - 24, turned 25 in September
-Sarah Brayton"


(Message last edited Oct-17th-02  4:07 AM.)

Maybe this is why the police prefer to question witnesses in private?

I think it was David Kent's "40 Whacks" who tells the story of Geo. Brayton and the family squabble over the inheritance. Must you challenge me so often? I do not have a private library at hand.

[If two people tell different stories that does NOT mean they are lying. Practical experience should tell you that! Just look at the stories being told about that "lone gunman"? in MD-VA area.]

(Message last edited Oct-17th-02  12:10 PM.)

Rays, that IS what I am asking, whether anyone out there has any other written statements or info that point to Lizzie having been a real confident of Alice Russell's or anyone else as to serious negativity toward Abby.  Doesn't seem like she was or the prosecution would have dragged them in to spill the beans in court.

Thanks Kat, it was Fleet. But all that Lizzie told Alice is brought out in Alice's trial testimony starting on page 374, the fear about being poisoned by milk or bread, the foreboding about the house being burned down around her, the man who came to visit, her odd feelings, etc., etc.  Alice's memory was VERY good in this instance.  She told all. Maybe Fleet didn't remember all Lizzie told him or the attorney didn't bother to pull it out of him since Alice had already told.

 

Ray, I don't mean for you to think I am challenging you.
I understand about your lack of library.
but...(there's the "but")
I would ask anyone, please where do you know this from?
Then I can look it up, because I have "the library".  Then when we find out we can make up our own minds.  But the tendency here & now, is to question the "authors", whether you've noticed this trend or not.
It's also helpful when we can dispel each other's pre-conceived notions which turn out to be unsupported.
It's partly a problem when something is simply Stated as true, and no back-up is given...what are we to believe?
The focus of the research here, to me, is to validate or "lose it."  Meaning, if something is stated here and remains unsupported, and is not labeled "My opinion" or "Kent's opinion" then we have to revise, revamp, renew what we believe.  Actually throw out the trash and clean up a little....after  110 years isn't it time?
This forum can be your library, believe it or not.
The Museum /Library to which we are attached, is also our Library.
You don't Need an author to tell you their interpretation.  You can decide for yourself.

Honestly, don't you think that if Someone wasn't lying we would know the answer to the Borden crime by now?

Carol, I've pulled together some cites that may help you form your Theory / opinion.
Some of this may be useful, some not.
At least it's now all in one place:
What Lizzie Told About Her Family
and What the Community Thought About It...


Knowlton Papers, FRHS, 1994. 
[Posted March 22, 02.  Am including it here, as it will be archived soon]
Known as "the Sanity Survey"...
by MOULTON BATCHELDER, DIST. POLICE pg.102-6:

November 24, 1892

H. A. Knowlton
District Atty.
New Bedford, Mass.

Sir,
I have interviewed the following named persons in reference to the relatives of Lizzie Borden who said as follows:

Capt. James C. Stafford North St. New Bedford.
I use to know quite well the mother of Lizzie Borden, her name was Sarah Morse.  She had a sister and brothers. John now in Fall River, another brother who is a Blacksmith and is now out West.  Mrs. Morse the mother of Lizzie Borden was a very peculiar woman.  She had a Very bad temper.  She was very strong in her likes and dislikes.  I never knew or heard of any of the Morses or Bordens was ever Insane or anything like it.  I use to live in Fall River and always knew the Bordens and the Morses.  Mrs. Gray who lives on this St. may tell you something aboute them, also a Mrs. Almy who lives on Franklin St, Fall River.

Mrs. -Holland  Daughter of Mrs. Gray Resides on North St. New Bedford.  Same house with Mrs. Gray.  I never heard my mother say that Lizzie her mother or any of the Morses is or ever was Insane or anything like it.  I always have heard that they were somewhat peculiar and odd.  I have heard my mother talk considerable about Bordens and the Morses but never heard her say that any of them were Insane.

Abraham G. Hart  Cashier Savings bank Fall River.  I have live here most all my life.  I never knew much aboute Lizzie Borden or her mother.  I never knew much about the brothers of Lizzie Bordens mother.  Always known of them.  I never heard that any of the Morses or Bordens was ever Insane.

S. H. Miller  93 Second St. Fall River opp. the Borden House.  I have lived in Fall River 64 years.  Borden use to work for me.  I know the Bordons (sic) and all of the Morses,  the father of Lizzies mother was Anthony Morse.  I use to know his two brothers.  Know the brothers of Mrs. Morse, Lizzies mother.  One is now supposed to be out West.  I never knew or never heard that any of the Morses is or was Insane.  Know they were somewhat peculiar.  Anthony Morse had two brothers George and Gardiner Morse.  I am not a witness at the trial.  I did not intend to be.  I saw Mr. Borden a little while before the murder.  Bridget, the Servant girl came running into my house and said both was dead just then a man was passing.  I called him and told Bridget to tell him what she told me.  She did and that man was a witness.  I did not want anything to do with it and I did not go near the house.

Rescom Case  199 Second St. Fall River.  I have lived in Fall River 57 years and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well.  A sister of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live here in Fall River.  I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother.  He has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they will get more evidence.  My wife dont know anymore than I do aboute the Bordens or Morses.  We never heard that any one of them is or ever was Insane but I think some of them are worse than Insane.

Nov.26.
John S. Brayton Fall River.  I have lived here great meny years.  I know the Morses Mother of Lizzie Borden was Sarah, her father was Anthony Morse.  I think her sister is dead.  Anthony Morse was a farmer, after he owned a milk route.  I never heard of any one of them as being Insane or having any streak of Insanity.

D. S. Brigam Ex. City Marshal of Fall River.  I use to know the Morses never heard of any of them as being Insane, but this girl Lizzie Borden is known by a number of people here to be a woman of a bad disposition if they tell what they know.

Geo A. Patty(sic-Petty), Fall River  I did not know much aboute the history of the Morses but never heard that any of them is or was ever Insane but Lizzie is known to be ugly.

Mrs Geo W. Whitehead  45 4th St. Fall River  Sister of Mrs. Borden who was murdered never heard that any of the Morses was Insane but ugly.  Since the murder people have said if she is guilty she must be Insane.

Mrs. William Almy Franklin St.  Fall River  Always known the Bordens and the Morses, but for several years I have not known much aboute any of them.  Some 30 years ago my husband who is now dead was in company with Mr. Borden.  I use to know the brother of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies Mother) also her sister.  I think their was 4 brothers.  I have never heard that their was any Insanity or anything like it among any of the Morses.

Chester W. Green  80 years old lives in Fall River and have for 40 years.  I know the Bordens and the Morses but I dont know much aboute.  Never heard as any of them was ever Insane or anything like it.

William Carr lived in Fall River for 40 years  I know the Bordens better than I know the Morses.  The Bordens are peculiar people but I never heard that any of the Bordens or the Morses is or was ever Insane.

Respectfully.
Moulton Batchelder
Dist. Police

HK102
Report, handwritten in ink. 
------------------------------------

The Legend 100 Years After the Crime--
A Conference on the Lizzie Borden Case
Bristol Community College, Fall River, MA
Aug. 3-5, 1992
The Hip-Bath Collection, Barbara Ashton,  from p211 +

[Jennings notes]
"i.  Rounseville--told Phillips that Mr. Borden speaking to him about going over to his farm for the summer said his family affairs were such this summer that he would not be able to go.

l.  B. Brigham Mrs. George--After murder L. showed her her money and bank book and said 'Why should I do it?'
------------------------------------------

Trial
Mrs. Hannah Gifford
pg. 1168+

Q.  Now Mrs. Gifford, will you state the talk, what you said and what she said?
A.  I was speaking to her of a garment I had made for Mrs. Borden, and instead of saying "Mrs. Borden" I said "Mother." and she says, "don't say that to me, for she is a mean good for nothing thing." I said, "oh Lizzie, you don't mean that?" And she said, "yes, I don't have much to do with her; I stay in my room most of the time." And I said, "you come down to your meals, don't you?" And she said, "yes, but we don't eat with them if we can help it." And that is all that was said.
............
Trial
[under] Anna Borden [no relation]
Page 1173

MR. MOODY. The evidence which we offer is substantially this, your Honors: that upon the return voyage, after this witness and the prisoner had spent the summer in various parts of Europe in travel, there was this conversation which I am about to state, which was several times repeated: it was in substance that she (the prisoner), regretted the necessity of returning home after she had such a happy summer, because the home that she was about to return to was such an unhappy home. This conversation, as I say, was repeated several times, and we submit that, owing to the nature of the statement that was there made, it would be competent. I should agree that if at that time there had been a mere passing word of resentment, if there had been any characterization of Mr. and Mrs. Borden such as might come from a passing feeling of resentment, that the distance of time of the conversation would be such as in your Honors' discretion would well warrant if not compel the exclusion of the testimony offered. But there is no language than can be stronger than the language used to express a permanent condition of things in that household. *

[*Of  course this is not testimony....]
-----------------------------------

Inquest
Augusta Tripp
Pg. 141+

....Q.  Were you a school mate of either of the daughters?
A.  With Miss Lizzie.
Q.  So that your most intimate friend in the family was Miss Lizzie?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did you ever hear either Miss Emma or Miss Lizzie say anything about their step mother?
A.  I have heard them speak of her of course.
Q.  And about their feeling towards her?
A.  I think I have heard them say but very little.
Q.  Which one have you heard talk about it?
A.  I think Miss Lizzie.
Q.  When was it you heard her talk about it?
A.  I could not tell you when.
Q.  Was it the time of your visit there?
A.  Very little said about her; Mrs. Borden was away, and there was very little said about her.
Q.  What do you remember of hearing Miss Lizzie say about it?
A.  About Mrs. Borden then?
Q.  Yes, or at any time.
A.  Well, I dont know what to tell you, for I have seen them so little that they did not go to tell me all the[i]r---
Q.  I want to know what they did tell you, that is all.
................
Q.  Had you any opportunity of observing what the relations were between the daughters and the mother, or between Miss Lizzie and the mother?
A.  Whenever I saw them together, they had very little to say to each other, seemed to have very little to say to each other. Everything went along quietly. They did not seem to make very much conversation with each other.
Q.  Did they eat at the same table?
A.  O, yes sir.
.........................
Q.  What can you tell us about the relations between Lizzie and her mother, so far as you observed it, and heard it form Lizzie?
A.  All I can tell you is that I dont think they were agreeable to each other.
Q.  What made you think so?
A.  I have seen them together very little. What should make me think so, would be--- if I were there, why, they did not sit down, perhaps, and talk with each other as a mother and daughter might. They were very quiet.
Q.  That is, they were together so little that you observed the fact?
A.  No, I dont think I should, they were around in the same room together, the dining room.
Q.  They associated together so little you noticed the fact they did not associate together?
A.  I noticed it; not that they kept away from each other, not that at all, but that they did not enter into conversation, perhaps, with each other, perhaps.
Q.  Was that so with Lizzie as well as Emma, or with one daughter more than the other?
A.  I think Lizzie talked with her mother more than Emma.
Q.  Emma had less to say to her?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  What else did you notice that led you to think that Lizzie and the mother did not get along well together, or were not agreeable to each other, as you expressed it?
A.  I dont know of anything, I cant recollect anything.
Q.  What you noticed was their manner towards each other?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  That is all, not from any words?
A.  Their manner to each other was not that of those persons that are agreeable to each other, or it did not seem to be.
Q.  When was it that you have seen them together?
A.  I could not tell you surely; it is as much as five years since I have seen Mrs. Borden at all.
Q.  So all this was based on what was quite a while ago?
A.  O, yes sir.
Q.  The officer reports that you told him that Lizzie told  you at some time, that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face and another behind her back.
A.  Did he say I said Lizzie told me so?
Q.  Yes.
A.  I did not think I told him so. It seemed to me so; it seemed to me that she did not like one way appearing to her face, you know deceitful, she could not bear deceitfulness, and she could not bear one thing to her face, and find out another thing to her back; she could not bear deceitfulness.
Q.  Was that what Lizzie told you?
A.  I could not say she told me that, that was the idea I got from what--- well, I dont know as I could say from being there, or from being with Lizzie perhaps, for I have been there very little.
Q.  You also told the officer that Lizzie told you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with the father, but Lizzie thought she did have an influence with him.
A.  Yes, I think Lizzie thought she did.
Q.  Did Lizzie tell you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with him?
A.  I dont remember any such talk.
Q.  With relation to giving some property to the step mother?
A.  Lizzie, from what I have heard her say, but I could not tell you the words, Lizzie said, but I gathered from what I heard her say, it was a long time before I heard her say it, that she thought her mother must have had an influence over her father, or he would not have made a present to her half sister. It was a long time ago, not expecting this to come up, I could not swear to one word Lizzie said.
Q.  This was all prior to the last visit, nothing was said about this at the last visit?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her father's death?
A.  I did not hear her say so.
Q.  Who told you she said so?
A.  I think my invalid sister told me so.
Q.  What is her name?
A.  Miss Carrie M. Poole, she is very feeble, she lives on Madison street New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.
Q.  You never heard Lizzie say that?
A.  No Sir, I never heard Lizzie say that.
Q.  The officer says you said explicitly, Mrs. Tripp, that Lizzie told you that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another thing behind her back, not in so many words, but that was the substance of what she said.
A.  I dont remember of her saying that.
Q.  Do you remember of telling that to the officer?
A.  I remember very well talking to him that I thought Lizzie thought her mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another to her back. I could not say Lizzie told me that, I cant say so. I was taken very much by surprise at seeing Officer Medley come in, and I tried to tell; but those things were years back, and thinking they never would come up, I cant recollect word for word things that occurred years ago. I cant say that Lizzie told me she thought so; but it would be from little things I might have heard her say that would cause me to think she could not bear deceitfulness, being such an honorable person as she was, s[q]uare person.
Q.  Did she appear to be fond of her step mother in her talk with you?
A.  No, I dont think she was fond of her.
Q.  Did she appear to be unfriendly towards her?
A.  No Sir.
--------------------------------------

Witness Statements
Medley
Pg. 31

Fall River, August 8, 1892.
Paid a visit to Mrs. Cyrus W. Tripp at her home in Westport on August 7, 1892. In reply to my questions she made the following statement. "Lizzie told me she thought her stepmother was deceitful, being one thing to her face, and another to her back. Lizzie told me her stepmother claimed not to have any influence with her father. But she must have influence with my father, or he never would have given my stepmother's half sister such a very large sum of money. She said, I do not know that my sister or I would get anything in the event of my father's death. This conversation took place at different times during former visits; nothing being said during her visit July 26th.

I realize that you pulled all this info for Carol, but, thanks, Kat, I find it useful too!  Boy, from the testimony of her contemporarys, Lizzie sounded like a piece of work!

Oooo, and from someone else's mouth that Emma hated Abby more than Lizzie did! 

What do you spose 'peculiar' is? What counts?
"we never heard that any one of them is or ever was Insane but I think some of them are worse than Insane" what is worse than
insane? "never heard that any of the Morses was Insane but ugly"
what is 'ugly'? "never heard that any of them is or was ever Insane but Lizzie is known to be ugly" again with the ugly. They sound like they must have been nightmares, what could they have been doing?

I kind of thought "ugly" meant a mean streak or acting belligerant or angry at times.

"Peculiar" might mean just about anything, especially AFTER the murders...

Kim, I had asked Susan if I could copy and paste my post and hers to a new thread because this "Emma" one is too long.  She said fine and then I am late getting to it.  I'd like to paste your post too, if that's all right?  Those are good questions.

Sure, that will be fine. Too bad Miss Emma wasn't
this popular in real life.

I don't have a BIG dictionary handy. Does "ugly" (like "Plug ugly") originally mean nasty and vicious? Does it derive from "ogre"?

From: http://www.merriamwebster.com (I have it bookmarked
below my address bar, I use it all the time)

Main Entry: 1 ug·ly
4 SURLY, QUARRELSOME <an ugly disposition> <the crowd got ugly>

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