1. "Teachers and fishing"
Posted by harry on Dec-14th-02 at 7:30 PM

One thing I love about Rebello is that the more you read it carefully the more these little items surface. Page 64

Lizzie was to vacation with friends in Marion, Massachusetts, at the summer cottage of Dr. Handy. Friends at the cottage included:

Dr. Handy's daughter; Miss Louise Holmes Handy (1876 - ?), a school teacher

Miss Isabel J. Fraser (1863-1936) a teacher at the Nathaniel B. Borden School in Fall River, formerly the Morgan Street School where Lizzie attended

Miss Anna Covell Holmes (1861-1943), a teacher and her sister,

Miss Mary Louisa Holmes (1859-1934), a former teacher at the Nathaniel B. Borden School and the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Charles J. Holmes

Miss Elizabeth Murray Johnston {1861-1907), a principal at the Broadway School 

Miss Annie Childs Bush (1864-1912), a teacher at Foster Hooper School in Fall River

Miss Louise O. Remington (1869-1950), a teacher at Mount Hope Avenue School in Fall River and her sister

Mabel H. Remington (1866-1956), a teacher at the Pine Street School in Fall River;

Miss Alice Lydia Buck (1855-1944), daughter of Rev. Augustus Buck;

Mrs. James Frederick Jackson

Miss Edith Jackson (1883 -?), nine year old daughter of Mrs. James F. Jackson

Miss Jennie Stowell.

Nothing could be found on Jennie Stowell.  Just maybe she's a teacher.

I find this a curious choice of acquaintances for Lizzie who dropped out of school.  However almost all were members of the Central Congregational Church where Lizzie was attending at the time.

When I read your title topic, I laughed.
I thought you were going to wonder aloud why all teachers like to fish!
That's an interesting post.

Alice Russel was also a teacher.  Maybe Lizzie learned a lot from these people after school, in friendship.  That would increase her thirst for knowledge, like a self-taight person.  Something to ponder.
BTW:  If much of the Church membersip (of committees) was out of town at Handy's...how come, then, Lizzie says she stayed in town just to take the roll call?

BTW: #2.:  In the Knowlton Papers, 182, there is a curious list titled   "WITNESSES --SURVEY ON"
and groups together   Sarah B. Whitehead ,  Hannah H. Gifford,  And   Hiram C. Harrington  as "Relatives of family (Borden) and each other".  Hannah Gifford was their cloakmaker...and related to the girls.

Kat,this may tie in with something that you touched on in another post in the "Pruic Acid" thread.

Maybe Lizzie was trying to improve her education by associating and learning from the more scholarly members of her church.  I always wondered whether she regretted in her later years of quitting school.

I agree with you and without being disrepectful to any teachers out there, I would say, at that time, that might have been Lizzie's best way to become self-educated.
I don't think she missed going to school, but I bet she retained an appetite for knowledge...

I hope you don't mind if I stick Hannah in here.  She popped up today and I thought the relationship interesting.
She is the one who Told what Lizzie said about Abby while at Mrs. Gifford's house, having a cloak made:

Inquest
Mrs. Hannah Gifford
Pg. 158+
A.  I made one for her also this Spring, very early this Spring.
Q.  Of course that made them come to your house more or less?
A.  Yes, of course.
Q.  Did you ever hear either Miss Emma or Miss Lizzie say anything about their mother?
A.  I never heard Emma, but I have heard Lizzie.
Q.  What have you heard Lizzie say?
A.  Well, she called her mother "a mean old thing."
Q.  When was that?
A.  That was this Spring when I was doing the last work for them.
Q.  How came she to say that?
A.  It was some remark I made about her mother's garment, what would be becoming for her. You know Mrs. Borden was very fleshy; I spoke to her of what I thought would be becoming to Mrs. Borden. She says "well she is a mean old thing". I says "O, you dont say that Lizzie?" She says "yes, and we dont have anything to do with her, only what we are obliged to", she says.
Q.  She said that?
A.  She said that, yes.
Q.  Anything more?
A.  Well, she says "we stay up stairs most of the time; we stay in our room most of the time." I says "you do, dont you go to your meals?" "Yes, we go to our meals, but we dont always eat with the family, with them; sometimes we wait until they are through", she says.
Q.  Did she tell you why?
A.  No. That is all she said. I did not say anything more. I was awfully surprised to hear her.
Q.  You never heard Mrs. Borden say anything, I suppose?
A.  No, I never heard any of them say anything against each other.
Q.  Excepting that?
A.  That is the only time I ever heard Lizzie either, and I was very much surprised.


Knowlton Papers, Glossary A:

GIFFORD, HANNAH H. (BORDEN) 1836 - 1912: born in Fall River, Massachusetts, daughter of Joseph and Hannah (Westgate) Borden. She was a relative of Andrew J. Borden, having a great-grandfather in common with him. She married Perry Gifford, a dealer in dry and fancy goods, and was widowed in 1898.  A cloakmaker in Fall River, she counted among her clients Abby, Emma and Lizzie Borden. She was a witness at the inquest into the deaths of Mr. and Mrs. Andrew J. Borden as well as the final trial, where her testimony pertained to the relationship between Mrs. Borden and her stepdaughter, Lizzie. She moved to Hanson. Massachusetts ill 1904, where she was residing at the time of her death.

--She lived at 39 Franklin Street., according to her testimony.
Who else lived on Franklin Street?


Witness Statements, pg. 10+
Elie M. Gifford No. 38 Franklin street. "I know nothing personally of the domestic relations of the Borden family; but I have heard much rumor to the effect that they did not get along very pleasantly."

Mrs. Perry Gifford. "We do sewing for the Borden family. I have heard Lizzie say harsh things of her stepmother. She said she did not and would not dine at the same table. She also said she (Her step-mother,) was a horrid old thing. she was very pronounced and out-spoken when referring to Mrs. Borden. This occurred last April." 
--[Mrs. Hannah Gifford IS Mrs. Perry Gifford.]

--Didn't somebody else live on Franklin Street?

Is this a test, Kat? 

Here's Emma's trial testimony:

Q.  What relatives of your father lived in Fall River?
A.  He had a great many cousins and only one sister and no brother.

Q.  What was the sister's name?
A.  Mrs. Harrington.

Q.  Where did Mrs. Harrington live?
A.  On Franklin Street.

So, although the Fall River Daily Herald (August 5, 1892) gives Hiram's address as 40 Fourth Street, Emma says his house is on Franklin.  I don't have a map handy, and I can't remember, but was the house maybe situated so that it fronted on both streets?

Regarding Hannah Gifford's statement, it's interesting to me that she said, as you quote, "A. That is the only time I ever heard Lizzie either, and I was very much surprised."  This leads me to believe Lizzie didn't go around gossiping negatively about Abby....at least to Hannah. And, it was the only testimony, well almost, some of the rest was excluded, that the prosecution had to say Lizzie was in a tizzie against Abby bad enough to kill her, and I don't think that Hannah's remarks proved that. Even the judge commented on this.

Thanks Diana.
I thought Hiram, first, but when I looked at his Inquest testimony he gives his address as 12 Turner Street. (pg. 134)

OK here's Rebello and the census info:
Pg. 30
"The 1890 Federal Census was burned in the 1920's. However, summary abstracts for 1890 are available.

1866-1886 House 12 Ferry Street
1887-1889 Removed to Assonet (Freetown), Massachusetts, in 1887. It is interesting that Hiram moved the same year Andrew deeded Emma and Lizzie the Ferry Street property. The property was deeded back to Andrew J. Borden for $1.00 on July 15, 1892. Andrew gave Emma and Lizzie $5,000 for the property.

Note: Andrew J. Borden deeded the Ferry Street property to Emma and Lizzie on October 1, 1887.

In 1890, Hiram returned to Fall River, Massachusetts.

1890-1892 30 Fourth Street (business), 12 Turner Street, (residence)
1893-1895 30 / 76 Fourth Street (business), 266 Franklin Street (residence)
1896-1907 76 Fourth Street(1896-1897) business, 164 Borden Street(business),
266 Franklin Street (residence)".

--So Harrington ended up at Franklin Street the year of the trial, but did not live there at the time of the murders.
--no that wasn't a test, but gee you guys come through for me when I DO ask!  Thanks again.


(Message last edited Dec-15th-02  10:25 PM.)

Another thing to keep in mind, tho, is that Abby's relatives said that she didn't talk about her home life , so we don't have much from Abby's own experiences as to her treatment by the girls, either.
INQUEST
Sarah Whitehead
Pg. 156 [for example]
Q.  Did she seem to be on good terms with her daughters?
A.  She never used to say but very little about them; she was a woman that kept everything to herself.


(Message last edited Dec-15th-02  10:55 PM.)

That's where I was confused.  Thanks, Kat.  I remembered that Emma put him on Franklin Street -- and I remembered Rebello had him on Franklin, too.  But, because of the way Emma's testimony is worded ...

Q.  Where did Mrs. Harrington live?
A.  On Franklin Street.

Q.  Did you go there?
A.  Yes.

Q.  Did you go there much the last year?
A.  Yes.

Q.  And before that?
A.  Yes.

... I had the impression that the Harringtons lived there for at least a year prior to the trial.  (However, as you point out, Rebello's census abstract puts him on Turner St. at the time of the murders and Harrington backs this info. up at the inquest.)

Disregard the red star except to point to Franklin Street.
I'm going to go find it on an old map now that I know where it is...

In the lower left quadrant ..find 2 bldg.s accross the street from each other.
One is standing tall, sideways to us, and white.
The other is facing us and looks like it has white PILLARS..
The street running between them is Franklin.  Notice that it goes 5 blocks up and stops at a large lot with one white house on it.

To the right of the 4 major buildings sideways to our view and up 2 streets is Second Street where Spring Street stops.  Spring is the 3rd street going up the map to the right of those big buildings.  Those 4 big buildings are located where South Main turns into North Main.

So Franklin Street in 1893 was where The Giffords and the Harrington's lived, relations of Andrew.

(Message last edited Dec-16th-02  2:00 AM.)

In the LBQ section of the LizzieAndrewBorden  "NEW RESEARCH" there is what has been published so far as to the "Arnold Brown Controversy", and includes a news article about Morse's trip to the P.O. the Friday after the murders.  It mentions that Morse's next *house parole break" happened at 9 p.m. when he was followed to Turner Street by Officer Minnehan.  Arnold Brown asks "Why Did He Go There?" and also wants to know WHY neither was ever asked about the supposed visit.

I'm interested in the location of Turner Street because I remember it was inferred that Hiram Harrington seemed able to move to a better location after the murder of his brother-in-law, which I always wondered about.  Since I'm doing maps tonight, I thought I'd check.  Using the Brown article as guide, I believe the street was between the railroad depot and N. Main., way out.
This does seem like a major change to Franklin Street!

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BrownControversy.htm
Brown, Arnold. "Strange Behavior of John Vinnicum Morse."
Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Vol. IV, No. 3 (July 1997): 15.

"From The Fall River DAILY GLOBE - August 6, 1 1892
INTENSE EXCITEMENT

...He returned to the house with the mail and shortly after nine o'clock reappeared and walked down to Main Street where he boarded a Bowenville car. Officer Minnehan was also on the car and shadowed the man to the house on Turner Street.  He made but a short stay and returned again directly to the Borden house."


--This is the full sized map.  Note the line down the center.  Franklin Street is just to the left of that line and Second Street is just to the right of it, in this maps proportions.
-Now look where Turner Street is.  It is the Street that juts out to the edge of the water.  There is the R.R. and the next big white street up is N. Main.  Harrington used to live on that short stretch of street with LURANA, Andrew's only surviving sibling.


BTW:  This map of Fall River, 1877 can be found at Archives, Lizzie Borden Society Forum, Links, at LABVM/L--called Panorama Map of Fall River.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/archive.htm





(Message last edited Dec-16th-02  3:02 AM.)

Almost a dozen young women at Marion. No doubt they all stayed with different people and just visited Dr. Handy's place, or else it must have been a really big house. I wonder if Andrew had anything to do with discouraging Lizzie's schooling? If Lizzie like to read so much, and there is evidence this was a lifelong desire, she could have easily stayed in school for another year just drifting and gotten her certificate.  However, I don't know if having a high school graduation certificate was even required to teach in those days? She certainly liked the company of other women who read and were therefore able to talk about things other than babies and homelife.
Thanks for posting that food for thought.

Thanks, Harry.  Very interesting, I didn't know all these young woman were school teachers.  Boy, I feel out of the loop being gone for a day! 

Lizzie Borden:  A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's, edited by Williams, Smithburn, and Peterson, 1980, pg. 42-44.

"Fall River Daily Herald, Aug. 6, 1892:
[Interview with Hiram Harrington, Lizzie's uncle, by marriage]

'Last evening I had a long interview with Lizzie Borden, who has refused to see anyone else.  I questioned her very carefully as to her story of the crime.'...

--*Last Evening* would have been Aug. 5th, which was FRIDAY.
So Hiram was at #92 sometime Friday evening, yet as late as 9 p.m. uncle Morse went out to Hiram's house?  Does this make any sense?

Harry posted in the Privy, in the Hiram Harrington topic, that Radin, pg. 82 says that: " 'One reporter, who had seen the blacksmith go in, timed the length of Harrington's stay.  With tongue in cheek, he wrote that Harrington had managed to get a surprising amount of information from Lizzie considering that he had been inside the house exactly three minutes.' "

--Is this something to account for?

I found another Franklin Street resident.

Knowlton Papers, FRHS, 1994. 
Report by MOULTON BATCHELDER, DIST. POLICE pg.102-6:

November 24, 1892

Capt. James C. Stafford North St. New Bedford.
"... I use to live in Fall River and always knew the Bordens and the Morses.  Mrs. Gray who lives on this St. may tell you something aboute them, also a Mrs. Almy who lives on Franklin St, Fall River.


Rebello, pg. 54, confirms:

..."The court was asked to determine the holdings that belonged to the estate and that of Andrew J. Borden. In 1887, Mr. Borden purchased Mr. Almy's land holdings except for the home on Franklin Street and another home in Swansea, Massachusetts"....

--Any more Franklin Streeters out there?

My thoughts exactly Carol, she preferred the company of women; like many men who attended their exclusive clubs. And other like minded women, disinclined toward married life, would have to make a living somehow. Teaching was one of the few opportunities out there for us (for those of us who liked to exercise our imperfect brains rather than empty bedpans all day)It comes as no surprise to read that list of "Miss"-es who composed her circle of friends.

(Message last edited Dec-17th-02  6:53 AM.)

Given the changes in fashionable addresses, could it be that area was the former choice locale in the early 19th century? Before moving up to the hill?
Does your locality have something similar in the 19th-20th centuries? How many big mansions on Main St that are now business offices?

It seems like E Porter was using H Harrington as a "composite figure" to combine what he learned from other sources. Its not unusual for the police to use reporters for their purposes. Didn't John Douglas (?) say this in one of his books?

(Message last edited Dec-18th-02  6:20 PM.)

Getting back to the teachers and Lizzie.  I found this link to a 1895 teacher's examination.  I think it's been on the board before -- but I can't find it in the archives so maybe I saw it somewhere else.  In the meantime, though, there's been some controversy about it.  It was initially put forward as an exam for grade eight students of that era -- but now prevailing opinion seems to be that it is an examination for qualification as a teacher in 1895.  (Although, as this site states, most teachers in those days only had a grade eight education -- so it seems like a moot point to me.)

If Lizzie left school in 1877 -- she would have been in grade 11 -- ergo, if her teacher friends did only go to grade eight -- she would have no trouble keeping up intellectually.

I couldn't have done this test in grade eight, that's for sure!

http://www.accelerated-achievement.com/test.htm

Thanks for posting that again Diana.  I had posted that awhile back but lost the link to it. 

I got it from a friend who was stunned by the level of knowledge (even if it was for a teacher) in the 1890's.

I also remember someone on the board (either this one or the old one) who had a relation that was a teacher in Salina, KS around that time.

I would definitely fail.